Do we have a dirty trick handbook?

[Negative Zero]

Does Half-Golem have a listed LA?

[The_Mad_Linguist]

1.Base creature

2. Half Golem, fail the wills save

3. Incarnet Construct

4.Repeat steps 2 and 3 until you LA is negative 100 and you CR is 4

5.Apply ever aquired template avalible...

And how are you getting all that cash?

[Kuroimaken]

Uncanny Forethought is from... where, exactly? I'm lazy and away from my sources.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Uncanny Forethought is from... where, exactly? I'm lazy and away from my sources.

Exemplers of EEEEEEEEEEVillll!


It's very appropriate that the best Lelouche build will be built around uncanny forethought.

[Agita]

A much easier and cheaper Incarnate Construct trick: Apply Dustform, which makes you a construct and has a listed LA of +2. Add Incarnate Construct. Repeat for +4 Str (or +2, AFB) a pop.

[Negative Zero]

I don't think you're allowed to have more than one of the same template (except Evolved Undead), anyway.

[Kuroimaken]

I don't think you're allowed to have more than one of the same template (except Evolved Undead), anyway.

You can't. Basically, you override one template when you apply the other so that the first no longer applies.

[Suzerain]

I don't think you're allowed to have more than one of the same template (except Evolved Undead), anyway.

You can't. Basically, you override one template when you apply the other so that the first no longer applies.

I'm really curious: Are you absolutely sure about that? Is that somewhere in a general "template" section? Because the templates themselves generally only check the type of the base creature. And I cannot find any contradictory text

[Kuroimaken]

There aren't any specific rules text. However, both templates change your base type. Therefore, once you apply the second template, you become eligible for the first once again.

[Negative Zero]

There aren't any specific rules text. However, both templates change your base type. Therefore, once you apply the second template, you become eligible for the first once again.

Just because you're eligible for a template doesn't mean that you can take it. For example, Feral can be applied to monstrous humanoids, and makes you into a monstrous humanoid. So does that mean you could play a Feral Feral Feral Feral Feral Water Orc if you so desire?

[Vinom]

There aren't any specific rules text. However, both templates change your base type. Therefore, once you apply the second template, you become eligible for the first once again.

Just because you're eligible for a template doesn't mean that you can take it. For example, Feral can be applied to monstrous humanoids, and makes you into a monstrous humanoid. So does that mean you could play a Feral Feral Feral Feral Feral Water Orc if you so desire?

Feral is an inherented template, you can't get it twice...

But half-golem and Incarnet construct are both aquired templates, what (besides cost) keeps you from aquiring it over and over?

[Kuroimaken]

Exactly. The example with the multiplicating Feral Water Orc doesn't apply.

[Negative Zero]

Then a quintuple-spellstitched Necropolitan or a quad-Dragonborn. The example is immaterial, the point is that you cannot take a template more than once unless it specifically says that you can.

[Vinom]

Then a quintuple-spellstitched Necropolitan or a quad-Dragonborn. The example is immaterial, the point is that you cannot take a template more than once unless it specifically says that you can.

No, you can't take two templates unless it's logical, RAW has no information on mass template applications

[Negative Zero]

RAW does say "Note: Unlike most templates, an evolved undead can potentially acquire this template more than once, evolving more with each application."

[The_Mad_Linguist]

RAW does say "Note: Unlike most templates, an evolved undead can potentially acquire this template more than once, evolving more with each application."

Most templates involve a type change, though.

[Kuroimaken]

Again, the evolved undead example doesn't apply.

Unlike the evolved undead template, what we're doing is not just stacking the same template multiple times, we're "buffering" it with another template that makes the previous one "pointless". THAT'S the big deal. The logic is similar to any legal loop in D&D, like the Consumptive Field loop. Technically, you shouldn't be able to stack the effects of a consumptive field on another, since they are the same effect, but the effects of one at a greater strength supercedes the other, and enables you to go further.  The same thing happens here - once you apply Incarnate Construct, the creature ceases to be the same that it was previously (type change), but that doesn't mean it didn't go through a change that made it stronger (Dustform was applied). And once you apply Dustform again, the creature ceases to be an incarnate construct.

I believe there was mention of using a loop with a thought bottle and becoming an evolved wraith that allowed you to effectively become an "ECL 20" character with tons of feats, HP in the four digits, inanely high saves and every class feature known to man. Similar principle there.

[Negative Zero]

I suppose I can agree with that. If it is indeed true that a creature is no longer treated as having a template due to changing its type, then it can be applied again. However, if that premise is flawed, and a template, once applied, is permanently affixed, then I believe that it cannot be applied again.

[Vinom]

I suppose I can agree with that. If it is indeed true that a creature is no longer treated as having a template due to changing its type, then it can be applied again. However, if that premise is flawed, and a template, once applied, is permanently affixed, then I believe that it cannot be applied again.

The main reason that this seems to be an unwritten rule is that any template, save the ones that say can be double applied, change the type of the creature so that applying it is nolonger is a valid template...

But I do agree with you that you can't apply paragon, or fire-souled, or lolth-touched more than one...

[Echoes]

I believe there was mention of using a loop with a thought bottle and becoming an evolved wraith that allowed you to effectively become an "ECL 20" character with tons of feats, HP in the four digits, inanely high saves and every class feature known to man. Similar principle there.

the Word, of Frank and K's The Wish and the Word did something similar.

Also, the Ritual of Unlearning in Savage Species lets you become any other creature, with the caveat that you have to pay a bucket-load of gold and some XP to do so. Now, you're supposed to begin the ritual and then continue adventuring normally, taking a day off every week to do ritual stuff. When you hit the ECL of the creature you are turning into, you trade in all the class levels you gained since you started the ritual and you become a Class X (whatever you were when you started the ritual) Creature. What you actually do is horde your gold until you have enough to afford the ritual and you are the same ECL as the creature. Perform the ritual in one big effort, and you are whatever creature you turned into with all of your class levels intact.

For example, I'm Bob the Artificer. I would really love to be a Black Ethergaunt, but I don't want to stop being an Artificer. So, I level up normally, making my way to level 20 like a good adventurer. Then, I take my massive pile of gold, plunk down some XP and get myself turned into a Black Ethergaunt Artificer 20. I now have 16 Aberration HD and 20 levels of Artificer. And I'm an "ECL 20" character.