Author Topic: Biwa of Listening (bardic knowledge)  (Read 3651 times)

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SorO_Lost

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Biwa of Listening (bardic knowledge)
« on: October 14, 2008, 09:21:45 PM »
Google only had one hit for this thing and Lists of Stuff don't have it so I figured I'd make this post about it so everyone knows about this great item.

Quote from: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/bk/20030613a
Biwa of Listening: The biwa is a stringed instrument similar to a lute. When played, the biwa of lore gathering produces mellow, muted tones. If the performer makes a successful Perform check (DC 15), the tones elevate the performer's ability to hear nearby conversations (+4 bonus on Listen checks). Upon command, and if the performer succeeds at an additional Perform check (DC 20) after at least 1 round of playing, he or she also gains the benefit of bardic knowledge with a bonus equal to half the performer's ranks in the Perform skill (round down) + his or her Intelligence modifier for 1 hour. For instance, a performer with 9 ranks in Perform and who has an Intelligence of 14 has a +6 bonus. (See Chapter 3 of the Player's Handbook for more on bardic knowledge.) Merely holding the biwa grants the user a +4 bonus on Gather Information checks.

Caster Level: 10th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, legend lore, Gather Information skill, Listen skill, Perform skill; Market Price: 29,600 gp; Weight: 3 lb.

Thats right, for only 30k you can regain your lost bardic knowledge you traded for Bardic Knack. Granted your bonus will be lower than if you had it normally, but since you gain the ability to roll bardic knowledge checks not emulate its effects as something else. You can still use all those bardic knowledge boosting items to make up the loss like a Vest of Legends(MiC) or Headband of Lore

Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Dictum Mortuum

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Re: Biwa of Listening (bardic knowledge)
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2008, 09:24:14 PM »
Nice, but i think that is expensive :/
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Negative Zero

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Re: Biwa of Listening (bardic knowledge)
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2008, 09:49:55 PM »
Wow, it's not even on the timjoh index.

Anyway, yeah it's expensive but you are paying for a class ability. Those don't come by often.

woodenbandman

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Re: Biwa of Listening (bardic knowledge)
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2008, 11:31:52 PM »
Bardic Knack + Jack of All Trades = 10 ranks in all knowledges anyway.

Solo

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Re: Biwa of Listening (bardic knowledge)
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2008, 02:14:03 AM »
Bardic Knack only allows you to use it on a trained only skill of you have 1 rank in the skill.

Bardic Knack + Jack of All Trades doesn't seem to work, as JoAT only allows you to use any skill untrained. It doesn't give you 1 rank in a trained only skill.

Of course, I may be wrong...

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

Blade2718

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Re: Biwa of Listening (bardic knowledge)
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2008, 02:37:24 AM »
Bardic Knack only allows you to use it on a trained only skill of you have 1 rank in the skill.

Bardic Knack + Jack of All Trades doesn't seem to work, as JoAT only allows you to use any skill untrained. It doesn't give you 1 rank in a trained only skill.

Of course, I may be wrong...
Bardic Knack lets you make any skill check with half your bard level, "in place of the number of ranks you have in the skill (even if that number is zero)".  A skill with zero ranks is untrained, so your first statement is false.  Jack of All Trades lets me use any skill as though I had half a rank, which makes it at the very least trained- even in trained-only skills!

SorO_Lost

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Re: Biwa of Listening (bardic knowledge)
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2008, 03:41:11 AM »
I'm all for saying the last line is about trained skills not that you must have one rank to use bardic knack on trained only skills.
So yeah, Jack of all Trade works to me.

***

@woodenbandman, You can learn things with Bardic Knowledge that you can't though any of the knowledge skills. With this item you can have both Bardic Knack & Bardic Knowledge though. It's like being a walking magic 8-ball and mac guyver all in one.

***

If someone can, post about this over on the list thread on WotC. I'm too lazy to once again request my password.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Solo

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Re: Biwa of Listening (bardic knowledge)
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2008, 09:13:29 PM »
Bardic Knack lets you make any skill check with half your bard level, "in place of the number of ranks you have in the skill (even if that number is zero)".  A skill with zero ranks is untrained, so your first statement is false.  Jack of All Trades lets me use any skill as though I had half a rank, which makes it at the very least trained- even in trained-only skills!

Bardic Knack goes on to say that for trained only skills, you must have 1 full rank in order to carry out the substitution.

The full text from the PHBII reads:

Quote
When making any skill check, you can use 1/2 your bard level (rounded up) in place of the number of ranks you have in the skill (even if that number is zero).
...
If the skill doesn't allow untrained checks, you must have at least one actual rank to attempt the check.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2008, 09:18:50 PM by Solo »

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.


woodenbandman

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Re: Biwa of Listening (bardic knowledge)
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2008, 09:27:32 PM »
So take Jack of all trades twice?

Solo

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Re: Biwa of Listening (bardic knowledge)
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2008, 11:53:11 PM »
This is where JOAT comes in.

Does it grant one actual rank?

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

Blade2718

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Re: Biwa of Listening (bardic knowledge)
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2008, 12:40:41 AM »
When you combine the two rules, the new rule for skill interaction introduced by JOAT (skills CAN be used untrained) supercedes the standard set of interactions that Bardic Knack references (skills CANNOT be used untrained).  I forget where it comes from exactly, but this is an example of where the exception overrides the general.

Solo

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Re: Biwa of Listening (bardic knowledge)
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2008, 02:33:56 AM »
Quote
When you combine the two rules, the new rule for skill interaction introduced by JOAT (skills CAN be used untrained) supercedes the standard set of interactions that Bardic Knack references (skills CANNOT be used untrained).
JoAT was most recently published in the CAdv on Jan. 2005, while the PHBII, containing Bardic Knack was published in May 2006.

Bardic Knack is therefore more recent than JoAT. Bardic Knack's rulings would therefore take precedence.

I'm sorry if I misread your post, it is late here.

Anyways, Bardic Knack specifically says 1 rank. JoAT specifically says treated as if you had 1/2 a rank.

Whether or not the skill can be used untrained isn't relevant. It is listed as a trained only skill.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2008, 02:47:41 AM by Solo »

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

Operation Shoestring

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Re: Biwa of Listening (bardic knowledge)
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2008, 03:37:25 AM »
Quote
When you combine the two rules, the new rule for skill interaction introduced by JOAT (skills CAN be used untrained) supercedes the standard set of interactions that Bardic Knack references (skills CANNOT be used untrained).
JoAT was most recently published in the CAdv on Jan. 2005, while the PHBII, containing Bardic Knack was published in May 2006.

Bardic Knack is therefore more recent than JoAT. Bardic Knack's rulings would therefore take precedence.

I'm sorry if I misread your post, it is late here.

Anyways, Bardic Knack specifically says 1 rank. JoAT specifically says treated as if you had 1/2 a rank.

Whether or not the skill can be used untrained isn't relevant. It is listed as a trained only skill.

That's stupid RAW-whoring and you know it.  The point of the JOAT feat is explicitly to let you use skills that otherwise cannot be used untrained.  Yay for RAI.

Blade2718

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Re: Biwa of Listening (bardic knowledge)
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2008, 08:38:04 AM »
Quote
When you combine the two rules, the new rule for skill interaction introduced by JOAT (skills CAN be used untrained) supercedes the standard set of interactions that Bardic Knack references (skills CANNOT be used untrained).
JoAT was most recently published in the CAdv on Jan. 2005, while the PHBII, containing Bardic Knack was published in May 2006.

Bardic Knack is therefore more recent than JoAT. Bardic Knack's rulings would therefore take precedence.

I'm sorry if I misread your post, it is late here.

Anyways, Bardic Knack specifically says 1 rank. JoAT specifically says treated as if you had 1/2 a rank.

Whether or not the skill can be used untrained isn't relevant. It is listed as a trained only skill.
I'm not the type of person to get into long, drawn out RAW debates.  I've presented what I consider to be the interpetation, and you've done the same.  We'll just have to agree to disagree.  I just want to say that I didn't use the term "new interpretation" to mean chronologically recent, simply as an alteration of the original.

Solo

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Re: Biwa of Listening (bardic knowledge)
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2008, 11:33:59 AM »

That's stupid RAW-whoring and you know it.  The point of the JOAT feat is explicitly to let you use skills that otherwise cannot be used untrained.  Yay for RAI.
That's stupid RAI-whoring and you know it.

Now, since you are not a psychic, nor do you play one on TV, I find it most prudent for you to leave RAI out of this debate until you take your first level in psion.

RAW, being what we are given, is what we should be working with. Leave the RAI debate between you and your DM when coming up with a houserule.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2008, 11:37:30 AM by Solo »

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

SorO_Lost

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Re: Biwa of Listening (bardic knowledge)
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2008, 04:58:11 PM »
JoAT was most recently published in the CAdv on Jan. 2005, while the PHBII, containing Bardic Knack was published in May 2006. Bardic Knack is therefore more recent than JoAT. Bardic Knack's rulings would therefore take precedence.
ToB came out after WoL, does that mean, to you, the book about the rules on legacy items should be ignored when talking about legacy rules?

Core: You cannot use a trained-only skill unless you have one rank in it (note, one rank, not a 1/2 rank).
PHBII: You cannot use Bardic Knack on a trained-only skill unless you have one rank in it (see above).
JoaT: 1. You have a 1/2 rank in every skill 2. Said 1/2 rank allows you to use trained-only skills (an exception).

You two can duke it out from here. I have no interest in listening to this any more.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Solo

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Re: Biwa of Listening (bardic knowledge)
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2008, 07:54:30 PM »
Quote
ToB came out after WoL, does that mean, to you, the book about the rules on legacy items should be ignored when talking about legacy rules?
I misinterpreted an argument when using that example. I retract the statement.

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.