Author Topic: Rebalancing 3.5, Multiclassing (NOT THE ELENNSAR THREAD)  (Read 12895 times)

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RobbyPants

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Re: Rebalancing 3.5, Multiclassing (NOT THE ELENNSAR THREAD)
« Reply #40 on: October 15, 2008, 01:03:18 AM »
Perhaps we shouldn't change it then...
I certainly don't want to make changes for the sake of making changes.  I just liked something I read early on in this thread about how casters get penalized so much harder than other classes for multiclassing.

Still, if we manage to balance the classes, then maybe that's all the fix we need.  If losing four levels of fighter is as bad as losing four levels of wizard, then maybe that's good enough.
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JaronK

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Re: Rebalancing 3.5, Multiclassing (NOT THE ELENNSAR THREAD)
« Reply #41 on: October 15, 2008, 01:04:52 AM »
Okay, so can we take the "Rebalancing 3.5" tag off this then?  If we accept that it's not a balance issue, and that the current system is fine, then we shouldn't change it for that project.

That said, there's nothing wrong with coming up with another idea if it seems like a good house rule.

Also, in my Tier thread I did in fact suggest a Gestalting fix to the power differences.  Quite simply:

Tier 1 and 2 are as normal.

Tier 3 and 4 can gestalt their levels with any NPC class.

Tier 5 and 6 can gestalt their levels with any NPC class or Tier 5 or 6 class.

Thus, you help balance things a good bit.  Fighter, Warblade, Wizard is a pretty strange party with a lot of imbalance.  Fighter//Monk, Warblade//Expert, Wizard is a much more reasonable party (yay Iajuitsu Focus for the Warblade!).

Also, Gestalting everyone does make the Tier 1s stronger.  Cloistered Cleric//Druid?  Oh dear god, just watch the DMM:Persisted Divine Power combined with Persisted Bite of the Werebear on that Wild Shaped psychopath... and the sheer madness of Archivist//Artificer is a wonder to behold.

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AndyJames

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Re: Rebalancing 3.5, Multiclassing (NOT THE ELENNSAR THREAD)
« Reply #42 on: October 15, 2008, 01:07:22 AM »
Actually, I have played Wizard//Sorcerer before. Not too exciting, if you ask me. Now, I have not played Cloistered Cleric//Druid yet, but that is mainly because I don't want to go wrecking my DM's game, but I might one day just to see what it is like. Playing down the power level, of course. I want to test it, not wreck the joint.

JaronK

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Re: Rebalancing 3.5, Multiclassing (NOT THE ELENNSAR THREAD)
« Reply #43 on: October 15, 2008, 01:14:23 AM »
Actually, I have played Wizard//Sorcerer before. Not too exciting, if you ask me.

Well, yeah, it's a weak combo.  You've created more MAD by needing Int and Charisma, and you really haven't gained anything except more spells per day.  The strong combos, however...

Quote
Now, I have not played Cloistered Cleric//Druid yet, but that is mainly because I don't want to go wrecking my DM's game, but I might one day just to see what it is like. Playing down the power level, of course. I want to test it, not wreck the joint.

See, now this one is REALLY potent.  You only need Wisdom and Con.  DMM Persistant of course destroys everything in its path, and you really can do just about anything.  And yeah, at any time you could decide to wreck the join if you wanted.  Heck, if you're going that route, take Hero domain for Persistant Giant Size, wildshape into a Dinosaur, and wreck the capital city of the first island nation you find.  Don't forget to cast a spell that lets you shoot fire, preferably out your mouth

Seriously, it's not an easy build to play down the power of unless you're really good about not taking power spells, because it's just SO easy to suddenly stomp something.  Your power level is as high as you want.

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SiggyDevil

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Re: Rebalancing 3.5, Multiclassing (NOT THE ELENNSAR THREAD)
« Reply #44 on: October 15, 2008, 01:23:04 AM »
Variable gestalting is easier if you shrink the "tiers" down to 3 categories like I did.

I don't think it'll catch on since GITP forum has a nearly identical concept before I ever did.

JaronK

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Re: Rebalancing 3.5, Multiclassing (NOT THE ELENNSAR THREAD)
« Reply #45 on: October 15, 2008, 01:24:29 AM »
Well, I actually already put them in three groups for this purpose.

I really couldn't go below 6.  My first system had 5, but I had to seperate the Sorcerer and Psion and such from Tier 3, because it just wasn't right.

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AndyJames

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Re: Rebalancing 3.5, Multiclassing (NOT THE ELENNSAR THREAD)
« Reply #46 on: October 15, 2008, 01:26:47 AM »
Simple. Don't allow Nightstick stacking, or don't take Persistent. DMM: Quicken is scary enough :D

But yes, I don't play classes to optimum most of the time. Blaster Sorcerers, etc., are what I fool around with, mainly because of the level of optimisation of my fellow players and DM. That said, there are times when I had to pull out the big guns (always have a few prepared, just don't use them) to save the party's butt from sheer bad dice rolls or a DM accident.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2008, 01:28:29 AM by AndyJames »

JaronK

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Re: Rebalancing 3.5, Multiclassing (NOT THE ELENNSAR THREAD)
« Reply #47 on: October 15, 2008, 01:27:32 AM »
Well yeah, but even without Persisting it's insane.  I'd avoid DMM entirely actually if you want to not blow up the campaign all over the place.

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Re: Rebalancing 3.5, Multiclassing (NOT THE ELENNSAR THREAD)
« Reply #48 on: October 15, 2008, 01:32:54 AM »
3 is best.

I don't think many players will want to memorize 5-6 categories of classes to gestalt.

Also, as dumb as this seems, I think many gamers flee at the word "gestalt". Perhaps if new jargon was developed, since it essentially isn't at heart; you can overlap MANY classes fully but no where near ALL.


Edit: Oh, and my fix wasn't for mixing with lower tiers with NPC classes.

It involves something a bit different, more like the doublecaster PrCs but for noncasters (CP here for ease of reference)

Quote
I call this the Spellcaster Benchmark GestaltFull spellcastersSemi-spellcastersNon-spellcasters, which are pretty much any base class with full BAB (yes even Duskblade) or otherwise absolute sucktastic combat options (Monk) count as 1 class, which allows you to match any 2 every level.


JaronK

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Re: Rebalancing 3.5, Multiclassing (NOT THE ELENNSAR THREAD)
« Reply #49 on: October 15, 2008, 01:38:54 AM »
The thing is, Sorcerers are CLEARLY not up to par with Wizards.  Factotums can't create new pocket dimensions or Shapechange like Sorcerers.  Rogues are NOT at a level with Factotums,  Experts can't hope to compete with Rogues.  And Commoner vs Expert is just silly.

So yeah, there's clearly at least 6, and even that lumps in the Samurai with the Warrior, which isn't right.

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Re: Rebalancing 3.5, Multiclassing (NOT THE ELENNSAR THREAD)
« Reply #50 on: October 15, 2008, 02:03:20 AM »
Sorcerers are close enough to Wizards IMO since they advance at near-identical rates with access to the same spells.
Other casters with best spell level = 1/2 level are just as good in slightly different ways.

Sure, you could go in to even more detail and split them 20+ different ways due to X or Y reasons, but I suppose all it comes down to is whichever method most gamers find easier to remember.

Kuroimaken

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Re: Rebalancing 3.5, Multiclassing (NOT THE ELENNSAR THREAD)
« Reply #51 on: October 15, 2008, 02:40:35 AM »
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And Midnight brings it back to the truly important question.  Can someone answer him?  What's missing?  What does the current system not do?

My reply: it doesn't make gishes possible without some really out there multiclass combinations. It also doesn't help balance Fighter10/Wizard10 versus, say, Cleric20.

It's not that multiclassing is broken, per se; it's that no matter how hard we try, chances are some multiclassed characters will lag horribly behind single-classed characters under the current system (this is particularly true of spellcasters, particularly because there's no way to advance spellcasting that's not following the same class or PrCing).

I think we could make a reasonably simple method for multiclassing feats: both require 5 levels in the classes involved. So, for example, a Rogue5/Fighter5/Ranger5 would have a Rogue 15's SA, a Ranger15's FE, and a Fighter15's feats, at the expense of two multiclassing feats. (Obviously, this is just an example. We're redoing the Fighter as is; we probably will advance his exclusive class features instead). Dipping still remains possible, but you don't get to advance those abilities further. And we'll choose the "multiclass features" of each class, obviously (a bit of work, yes, but better than elaborating 2000+ specific feats).
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SiggyDevil

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Re: Rebalancing 3.5, Multiclassing (NOT THE ELENNSAR THREAD)
« Reply #52 on: October 15, 2008, 03:34:05 AM »
Why cost multiclassers a feat? They'll still be worse than full casters while the latter loads up on Metamagic and DMM.

Granted, you wouldn't want a L15 with 5/5/5/ becoming Rogue 15/Fighter 15/Ranger 15.
If you do the common "add half of level to all classes up to maximum" variant (round down) you'd get a L15 (+7) 5/5/5/ character with abilities of Ro12/F12/Ra12.
Close, but that's 6 less class levels and 2 less than character level. If those were spellcaster classes rather than warrior/expert it means much more.

As shown here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2279.0) the math gets weird if you keep adding more classes, but I think there are ways around those stacking problems.

JaronK

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Re: Rebalancing 3.5, Multiclassing (NOT THE ELENNSAR THREAD)
« Reply #53 on: October 15, 2008, 04:12:33 AM »
My reply: it doesn't make gishes possible without some really out there multiclass combinations.

Duskblade 20.  Hexblade 20.  Wizard 9/Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 10.  Wizard 5/Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 9/Abjurant Champion 5.  I'm not seeing the issue here... those are perfectly viable builds of varying power levels, and hardly an out there multiclass combo... just take a little of the base classes, and add in a hybrid PrC designed for the purpose, and you're there.

Quote
It also doesn't help balance Fighter10/Wizard10 versus, say, Cleric20.

Why should that be balanced?  You can make Fighter/Wizards after all.  Not every possible iteration of every combination must be balanced... it's just that the strong ones shouldn't be overpowering, and you should be able to make a strong enough one for any given character concept.  Fighter 10/Wizard 10 is just a bad combo, but if you want a Fighter/Wizard, Fighter 1/Wizard 9/Eldritch Knight 10 will give you that, so that's hardly an issue.

Quote
It's not that multiclassing is broken, per se; it's that no matter how hard we try, chances are some multiclassed characters will lag horribly behind single-classed characters under the current system (this is particularly true of spellcasters, particularly because there's no way to advance spellcasting that's not following the same class or PrCing).

Again, can you name the sort of character concepts that will lag behind?  Obviously making silly build choices will penalize you, but then again a Fighter 10/Wizard 10 is perfectly balanced against a Cleric 20 if the Cleric is as bad in making spell selections as the Fighter/Wizard is in build selection. 

Quote
I think we could make a reasonably simple method for multiclassing feats: both require 5 levels in the classes involved. So, for example, a Rogue5/Fighter5/Ranger5 would have a Rogue 15's SA, a Ranger15's FE, and a Fighter15's feats, at the expense of two multiclassing feats. (Obviously, this is just an example. We're redoing the Fighter as is; we probably will advance his exclusive class features instead). Dipping still remains possible, but you don't get to advance those abilities further. And we'll choose the "multiclass features" of each class, obviously (a bit of work, yes, but better than elaborating 2000+ specific feats).

Yeah, so your Rogue 5/Fighter 5/Ranger 5 gains an extra 5 bonus feats at the cost of two feats... I see a problem with this cunning plan.  But really, I think the balance is currently slightly in favor of multiclass characters... single class characters are possible, but are often weaker.  So pumping up multiclass characters seems to me like a plan that will remove single class characters as a viable option.

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Kuroimaken

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Re: Rebalancing 3.5, Multiclassing (NOT THE ELENNSAR THREAD)
« Reply #54 on: October 15, 2008, 12:15:55 PM »
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Duskblade 20.  Hexblade 20.  Wizard 9/Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 10.  Wizard 5/Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 9/Abjurant Champion 5.  I'm not seeing the issue here... those are perfectly viable builds of varying power levels, and hardly an out there multiclass combo... just take a little of the base classes, and add in a hybrid PrC designed for the purpose, and you're there.

Note how the builds you offered with actual multiclassing both require PrCs? That's what I'm talking about. I think multiclassing could be viable without need of PrCing the crap out of it. Basically, I feel that the importance of PrCs should be a little diminished.

Quote
Why should that be balanced?  You can make Fighter/Wizards after all.  Not every possible iteration of every combination must be balanced... it's just that the strong ones shouldn't be overpowering, and you should be able to make a strong enough one for any given character concept.  Fighter 10/Wizard 10 is just a bad combo, but if you want a Fighter/Wizard, Fighter 1/Wizard 9/Eldritch Knight 10 will give you that, so that's hardly an issue.

Because the player shouldn't need to research a viable build to implement a concept. I'm assuming the average player has a good grasp of mechanics, but not enough that he's an above average CO. There are currently well over twenty splats out there; making a gish already requires one of them, and that's easily the first combo I can think a player would find awesome.

Quote
Again, can you name the sort of character concepts that will lag behind?  Obviously making silly build choices will penalize you, but then again a Fighter 10/Wizard 10 is perfectly balanced against a Cleric 20 if the Cleric is as bad in making spell selections as the Fighter/Wizard is in build selection.

Mainly spellcasters, I believe. Some skillmonkey mixes, too, but that's more of an issue with how some classes have LUDICROUSLY low skill points.

Quote
Yeah, so your Rogue 5/Fighter 5/Ranger 5 gains an extra 5 bonus feats at the cost of two feats... I see a problem with this cunning plan.  But really, I think the balance is currently slightly in favor of multiclass characters... single class characters are possible, but are often weaker.  So pumping up multiclass characters seems to me like a plan that will remove single class characters as a viable option.

This was me mostly tossing ideas out there for critique. I'd say THAT objective was accomplished.  :lol
Quote
Why cost multiclassers a feat? They'll still be worse than full casters while the latter loads up on Metamagic and DMM.

Again, tossing ideas. As Jaron pointed out, right now the balance is slightly in favor of multiclassing, and I think a feat investment is a small price to pay.

Quote
If you do the common "add half of level to all classes up to maximum" variant (round down) you'd get a L15 (+7) 5/5/5/ character with abilities of Ro12/F12/Ra12.
Close, but that's 6 less class levels and 2 less than character level. If those were spellcaster classes rather than warrior/expert it means much more.

I forgot to mention that all the other class features they'd normally gain are lost. So, for example, our hypothetical construct wouldn't have Improved Uncanny Dodge, the level 10 rogue abilities, the ranger's advanced combat style, and the Fighter's bonus feats (assuming we create other class features for them).
Hardly a perfect idea, though, and your example sounds a bit more workable.
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Midnight_v

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Re: Rebalancing 3.5, Multiclassing (NOT THE ELENNSAR THREAD)
« Reply #55 on: October 15, 2008, 02:16:06 PM »
Quote
Quote
Duskblade 20.  Hexblade 20.  Wizard 9/Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 10.  Wizard 5/Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 9/Abjurant Champion 5.  I'm not seeing the issue here... those are perfectly viable builds of varying power levels, and hardly an out there multiclass combo... just take a little of the base classes, and add in a hybrid PrC designed for the purpose, and you're there.


Note how the builds you offered with actual multiclassing both require PrCs? That's what I'm talking about. I think multiclassing could be viable without need of PrCing the crap out of it. Basically, I feel that the importance of PrCs should be a little diminished.
I see I simply disagree with your basic premise, I think.
Duskblade 20 is the spell ish dude with a sword so you dont' have to multiclass.
Wizard/Fighter -> eldritch knight , isn't exactly prc'd all to hell.

I'm not sure how to say it. . .
Hmm... I like prestige classes, there's nothing wrong with it at all. Well the only problem with it is that you WILL prc out of wizard cause there's no reason to stay a wizard. That should be fixed within the wizard class.

Multiclassing in the traditional sense ftr10/Wiz 10 and wanting it to be as valid an option as Wizard 20? I dont' like that it takes a lot of optimization out of the picture.

I want people to be able to optimize.
The thing that keeps me out of 4.0 is the shitty "multiclass blocks" for lack of a better term. I want to be have the options of Prcing and multiclassing all to hell.
The only problem is that they people who play "certain classes" have no reason to stay in at all levels.
Thats just shitty design.
It has to be a trade system but nothing signifigant actually NEED's to be changed. I'd like to say... If it ain't broke dont' fix it.
Though ... I'm reading it all to mean its just a matter of personal distaste not anything inherently wrong so. . . I'll move on I guess.
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Kuroimaken

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Re: Rebalancing 3.5, Multiclassing (NOT THE ELENNSAR THREAD)
« Reply #56 on: October 15, 2008, 03:17:43 PM »
Quote
Though ... I'm reading it all to mean its just a matter of personal distaste not anything inherently wrong so. . . I'll move on I guess.

The main "problem" that often occurs is that some builds require PrCs to work at all, and that's something I particularly dislike. Nothing against PrCs themselves, but when you have to tack on 4+ classes to make a concept work (like your example Wizard 5/Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 9/Abjurant Champion 5), then I feel something has to be done.

Regardless, Robby started an awesome effort in another thread. I'd ask him to move it here if it's not too much trouble?
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Kuroimaken

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Re: Rebalancing 3.5, Multiclassing (NOT THE ELENNSAR THREAD)
« Reply #57 on: October 16, 2008, 05:40:26 PM »
*pokes Robby's pants*
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Rebalancing 3.5, Multiclassing (NOT THE ELENNSAR THREAD)
« Reply #58 on: October 16, 2008, 07:03:25 PM »
*pokes Robby's pants*

That is wrong in so many ways.
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Kuroimaken

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Re: Rebalancing 3.5, Multiclassing (NOT THE ELENNSAR THREAD)
« Reply #59 on: October 16, 2008, 07:57:55 PM »
Quote
That is wrong in so many ways.

No. Wrong would be to stroke them.
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