Author Topic: Rebalancing 3.5, Multiclassing (NOT THE ELENNSAR THREAD)  (Read 12882 times)

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JaronK

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Re: Rebalancing 3.5, Multiclassing (NOT THE ELENNSAR THREAD)
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2008, 10:32:28 PM »
I believe IL also determines your highest level maneuvers available (similar to how effective BL works regarding vestiges).

It does, but you don't get more manuevers until you get back into an initiator class, and the initiator system gives half IL.  So, I figured it's pretty close.

Quote
I agree, actually. It's just that I'm trying not to make multiclassing so attractive that no one ever plays a single class character anymore.  ;)

Agreed, I think that goes to far.  We've got to hit a perfect balance, and that is NOT easy.

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Re: Rebalancing 3.5, Multiclassing (NOT THE ELENNSAR THREAD)
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2008, 11:02:59 PM »
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Fil, won't that get wormy when you get into the 2x 1st level spell and 1x 2nd level spells bit and you actually use those to memorise, say, 3x 3rd level spells?

Maybe not....
wizard10 (CL and spells of 10): 4 1st 4 2nd 3 3rd 3 4th 2 5th = 16 spells
fighter6/wiz1 (CL 4 and spells of wiz1): 1 2nd level or less
fighter6/wiz2 (CL 5 and spells of wiz2): 2 2nd level or less
fighter6/wiz3 (CL 6 and spells of wiz3): 2 2nd level or less, 1 3rd
fighter6/wiz4 (CL 7 and spells of wiz4): 3 2nd level or less, 2 3rd =5 spells
fighter6/wiz5 (CL 8 and spells of wiz5): 3 2nd level or less, 2 3rd, 1 4th.

honestly, if I take fighter8/swordsage1... I get a whopping 6 4th level manuevers and 4th level stance... that is definitely much more "top loaded" than the regular swordsage9.. but SS9 has more stuff overall, more endurance.  spells can be the same way.


Psychic Robot

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Re: Rebalancing 3.5, Multiclassing (NOT THE ELENNSAR THREAD)
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2008, 11:10:53 PM »
Would it be out of line to suggest that saves be altered so that they are, perhaps, only +1 at first level instead of +2?  The saves could then progress more strongly at later levels.

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Re: Rebalancing 3.5, Multiclassing (NOT THE ELENNSAR THREAD)
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2008, 11:20:44 PM »
Hmm, assuming classes are balanced to not be top heavy or crazy dipworthy anymore, what do you guys think of using gestalt, paying xp seperately for each side of it and using total XP to determine ECL?

There was some discussion on it before it derailed in the other thread and as I recall, the main issues was that it made dipping Very desirable(which I related to spending the benefits to be closest to xp converted into gp for magic items), and complexity(don't really have an answer for that part, other than not really seeing the complexity myself)

It'd get rid of BAB not keeping up, as well as saving throw explosion.
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JaronK

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Re: Rebalancing 3.5, Multiclassing (NOT THE ELENNSAR THREAD)
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2008, 11:28:50 PM »
@Psychic:  Well, let's think about that.

Let's say strong saves are 1 at level 1, +.75 after that, and weak saves are still just .33 per level, as now.

Okay, so that gives us a save progression, for good saves, of

1 1 2 3 4 4 5 6 7 7 8 9 10 10 11 12 13 13 14 15
as compared to the current
2 3 3 4 4 5 5 6 6 7 7 8 8   9   9  10 10 11 11 12

So, it would be worse for the first 4 levels, and also at level 6, but then from there on out it's tied or better.  The end result is slightly higher good saves at the end, but nothing dramatic.  So, it's worth considering, and I don't see anything horribly wrong with slightly higher saves at high levels.

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Re: Rebalancing 3.5, Multiclassing (NOT THE ELENNSAR THREAD)
« Reply #25 on: October 14, 2008, 11:29:18 PM »
Caster levels: That's what practiced caster is for.

Spells are far too powerful as it is. All spellcasters need to lose spells to be balanced with everyone else. Shadowcaster came close but they were too limited.

The only reason that a spellcaster is broken is because of its ridiculous number of completely broken spells. Get rid of the spells, balance the power. Mostly. There's still Samurai in the world.

Once the spells that break the game are removed, tier 1 classes get bumped down to tier 2 when optimized. Then it's a matter of balancing the tier 2s with the tier ones, such as sorcerors, preferably with more spells per day/known, then upping the power of melee so that everyone hovers at around tier 3.


JaronK

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Re: Rebalancing 3.5, Multiclassing (NOT THE ELENNSAR THREAD)
« Reply #26 on: October 14, 2008, 11:30:21 PM »
Hmm, assuming classes are balanced to not be top heavy or crazy dipworthy anymore, what do you guys think of using gestalt, paying xp seperately for each side of it and using total XP to determine ECL?

I love Gestalt, I really do, but I think it should be kept as an alternate system.  It's fine in an all gestalt game, but it's not necessary to make it part of the base rules, and it CERTAINLY shouldn't be the new multiclassing system.  Just too breakable, especially if you can gestalt more than two classes into one level.  The multiclass gestalt idea would be hilarious for a single player campaign though.

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Re: Rebalancing 3.5, Multiclassing (NOT THE ELENNSAR THREAD)
« Reply #27 on: October 14, 2008, 11:44:54 PM »
Personally, I like those multiclass feats (swift hunter, asthetic mage, etc).  Of course, we'd have to come up with a lot more to make a more complete list.  Perhaps we could list a "primary" and "secondary" ability for each class.  Then you can take a feat that stacks two classes together for one class' primary ability and the other class' secondary ability.  As far as prereqs going, you'd need to have 3 levels in the primary class and 2 of the secondary.

This might be too simple and broad, and thus it might be abusable as hell.  Also, some classes don't have a lot of abilities.  Fighters (at least the PHB version) really only have one ability: feats.  You can't fully advance a caster's spellcasting thorugh a feat like this; it would be way too powerful.  Some things that do help a caster are things like switching the ability score for one class' ability to the casting stat of the other class.  This is like making Cha fuel all of the monk's abilities for the sorcerer/monk feat.

Do you think something like this is doable?

Shoot, why not make fighter feats work like IL as well?
rogue6/fighter1 grants you an extra 4 feats at level 7?
rogue6/fighter2 grants me 4d6 SA AND 5 FIGHTER FEATS?
that's not half bad either... try this...
rogue6/fighter2/wizard3 = SA 5d6, 6 bonus fighter feats, and 4th level spells, BAB 8... and I go straight into shadowlord (another of my fetishes.. sorry)
rogue6/fighter2/wizard3/TS6/fighter+1/rogue+1/wizard+1 we get..
SA 10d6, 10 FIGHTER feats, wizard CL of 12 with 6th level spells... possibly better depending on x.
This is similar to something we barely touched on in my feats thread.  Several people had tossed around the idea of feats that scale with fighter level.  Someone then threw in the idea of non-fighter levels counting for half.  So, lets say (just making this up) that Dodge gave you a +1 dodge bonus to AC, and another +1 every 5 fighter levels.  Then, a fighter 2/rogue 6 would add up to a fighter 5 for purpose of that feat.
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JaronK

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Re: Rebalancing 3.5, Multiclassing (NOT THE ELENNSAR THREAD)
« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2008, 11:50:18 PM »
I'm a big fan of the idea of feats that scale with Fighter levels... I really think they're great.  However, my concern with the multiclass feats is that it makes things too dippable in the long run.  Think about it... if Fighter feats scale with level, then taking just 1 Fighter level in your build combined with a multiclass feat suddenly makes your feats all scale (and you might as well use the Fighter level for that).  That's a ton of power from a single level of Fighter, which I think is something to avoid. 

Also, we run a huge danger of pulling the Halfling Outrider trick, wherein a single class advances tons of other classes (the Halfling Outrider advances Ranger, Druid, AND Paladin mount progressions, so if you have all three, you get a triple bonus).

I mean, imagine a character who has a Rogue/Scout multiclass feat, a Ranger/Scout multiclass feat, and a Fighter/Scout multiclass feat.  Now his scout levels give him favored enemies, sneak attack, and feat advancement... that could get ugly fast and lead to a lot of builds like Fighter 2/Rogue 2/Ranger 2/Scout 14 while Scout 20 is extinct.

So, yeah, that's the danger.  It could be dealt with a bit by making sure you can't qualify too quickly for multiclass feats, or by making sure that later abilities that classes get are much stronger, but we need to be careful.

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Re: Rebalancing 3.5, Multiclassing (NOT THE ELENNSAR THREAD)
« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2008, 11:54:53 PM »
I personally don't think there's anything wrong with multiclassing.

If you're not fixing something "wrong" your just exprapolating on an idea. The idea that you use may or not be flawed but certainly won't be inclusive enough to please even half the people who come across our system.

I note a few things about the premises, but what I'm really interested in knowing is "Why are you changing or trying to change multiclassing at all.
The only change that I have noticed as being truly useful for character concept representation is Remove multiclass penalties.

So okay we remove Multiclass penalties.

Is there anything else wrong? Or is it just that you(we) think you have a better idea?

I like the multiclassing system. The outcome of Multiclassing "enhancements" become what?
A perfect gish variant? Can we not already do that?
What else is there?

Submitted respectfully,
Midnight_v

Quote
I mean, imagine a character who has a Rogue/Scout multiclass feat, a Ranger/Scout multiclass feat, and a Fighter/Scout multiclass feat.  Now his scout levels give him favored enemies, sneak attack, and feat advancement... that could get ugly fast and lead to a lot of builds like Fighter 2/Rogue 2/Ranger 2/Scout 14 while Scout 20 is extinct.

That.. none of that... is really very broken. Scout 20 would still exist by virtue of having scout 15-20 give worthwhile abilities that you actually MISS having by gaining what you gain from all that hedging.

First literally you're not going to get something that gives a scout sneak attack that stacks with skrimish.
We should deal with what exists not worst case scenario hypotheticalls.

There is nothing that stacks Sneak attack with skirmish so we neededn't worry about that .

Were are fortunate that we have a closed system. What exists, is all there is.

Consider only what is relavant.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2008, 11:59:35 PM by Midnight_v »
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RobbyPants

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Re: Rebalancing 3.5, Multiclassing (NOT THE ELENNSAR THREAD)
« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2008, 11:56:24 PM »
Well, as for the generic multiclass feats I proposed, I don't think the player should get to pick the abilities.  I think we should list a primary and secondary ability for each class.  Then, when the player takes the feat, he picks the two classes and gets one ability from each.
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I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
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JaronK

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Re: Rebalancing 3.5, Multiclassing (NOT THE ELENNSAR THREAD)
« Reply #31 on: October 14, 2008, 11:57:21 PM »
And Midnight brings it back to the truly important question.  Can someone answer him?  What's missing?  What does the current system not do?

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fil kearney

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Re: Rebalancing 3.5, Multiclassing (NOT THE ELENNSAR THREAD)
« Reply #32 on: October 15, 2008, 12:16:17 AM »
I don't think anything is broken at all.  I did away with preferred classes and multiclass penalties long ago.. along with alignment and "fluff" prereqs like, "impress someone" or "stand on one foot for an hour" to qual for a PrC.

As for my proposed power creeping ToB style:  I almost exclusively play high level gestalt.  what I'm proposing increases every build's power EXCEPT tier 1 classes.  they don't improve at all.  this would make everything else more powerful and reduce the gap.


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Re: Rebalancing 3.5, Multiclassing (NOT THE ELENNSAR THREAD)
« Reply #33 on: October 15, 2008, 12:20:42 AM »
I don't think anything is broken at all.  I did away with preferred classes and multiclass penalties long ago.. along with alignment and "fluff" prereqs like, "impress someone" or "stand on one foot for an hour" to qual for a PrC.

As for my proposed power creeping ToB style:  I almost exclusively play high level gestalt.  what I'm proposing increases every build's power EXCEPT tier 1 classes.  they don't improve at all.  this would make everything else more powerful and reduce the gap.


I agree with those changes to the PRC's as well as the multiclass penalties. Favored classes. Could keep or remove if we rewarded it somehow, I posted a thread but the poll show "Remove" overall.
So I guess good call
Gesalt... ahh but we're already making all the other classes more powerful thus there's no real reason to blend gesalt into the change.  Methinks. I'd have to do a quick reveiw of you idea though.
Still...
My original question stands.
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Re: Rebalancing 3.5, Multiclassing (NOT THE ELENNSAR THREAD)
« Reply #34 on: October 15, 2008, 12:25:30 AM »
Level, Gainfatal.


At this point I really shouldn't even call the class ability selections "skills" since each would be like a self-scaling feat or a tiny class package unto itself.
Essentially, you have X roles at level 1 (4+?) and each advances automatically as you levelup.
You're pretty much playing a low-key gestalt with much, much more room for "class" combinations.

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Re: Rebalancing 3.5, Multiclassing (NOT THE ELENNSAR THREAD)
« Reply #35 on: October 15, 2008, 12:26:39 AM »
And Midnight brings it back to the truly important question.  Can someone answer him?  What's missing?  What does the current system not do?

JaronK
Nothing. I like multiclassing. In fact, I am probably the most guilty of multiclassing in my groups. I have not built a single class 20 of anything. Ever.

However, I am just tossing out ideas to see where it would go (i.e., to be critiqued).

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Re: Rebalancing 3.5, Multiclassing (NOT THE ELENNSAR THREAD)
« Reply #36 on: October 15, 2008, 12:29:53 AM »
Perhaps we shouldn't change it then...
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fil kearney

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Re: Rebalancing 3.5, Multiclassing (NOT THE ELENNSAR THREAD)
« Reply #37 on: October 15, 2008, 12:35:44 AM »
Gesalt... ahh but we're already making all the other classes more powerful thus there's no real reason to blend gesalt into the change.  Methinks. I'd have to do a quick reveiw of you idea though.

oh hells no.  if I go through with MY proposed changes, I'd never gestalt with it.... gestalt is my solution to tier issues... throw enough crap on a character, and they are all godly.  :D

but these revisions I'm tossing around would make me interested in actually NOT gestalting a game for a change.  
I suppose I'm more suggesting an "alternate" to gestalt?  

but yeah... multiclassing ain't broke.

The only argument I can really think of against multiclassing is that it gimps full casting classes...  but that is a greedy complaint, and technically NOT a flaw... I'm fine, though I'll likely muse about my ideas in anothe thread.

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Re: Rebalancing 3.5, Multiclassing (NOT THE ELENNSAR THREAD)
« Reply #38 on: October 15, 2008, 12:43:37 AM »
oh hells no.  if I go through with MY proposed changes, I'd never gestalt with it.... gestalt is my solution to tier issues... throw enough crap on a character, and they are all godly.  :D

but these revisions I'm tossing around would make me interested in actually NOT gestalting a game for a change. 
I suppose I'm more suggesting an "alternate" to gestalt? 

Hell yes. I think the same way.

Many classes don't break when gestalted, some do. It's a case-by-case process of gestalting.

You could gestalt Tier 4 and lower as much as you want and it probably would make D&D better as a whole.
Tier 3 perhaps in a limited way or Either/Or with class abilities, with shared resources pooled, but not overlapping options.
Tier 2 and 1, hell no. Never.

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Re: Rebalancing 3.5, Multiclassing (NOT THE ELENNSAR THREAD)
« Reply #39 on: October 15, 2008, 12:59:01 AM »
oh hells no.  if I go through with MY proposed changes, I'd never gestalt with it.... gestalt is my solution to tier issues... throw enough crap on a character, and they are all godly.  :D

but these revisions I'm tossing around would make me interested in actually NOT gestalting a game for a change. 
I suppose I'm more suggesting an "alternate" to gestalt? 

Hell yes. I think the same way.

Many classes don't break when gestalted, some do. It's a case-by-case process of gestalting.

You could gestalt Tier 4 and lower as much as you want and it probably would make D&D better as a whole.
Tier 3 perhaps in a limited way or Either/Or with class abilities, with shared resources pooled, but not overlapping options.
Tier 2 and 1, hell no. Never.

Tier 3+Tier 2 is actually very enjoyable. And two fo the Big Six on one character is only mildly more powerful than normal due to actions/round being restrictive (abuseable? You bet your ass! But not as truly optimal when it comes to effecient use of the Gestalt variant).


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