[System Altering] Classes, borrowing from Frank Trollman (and others)

[Elennsar]

Put it this way, unless they have different powers as a consequence, whether they were born with talent or were taught it is fluff text for your personal PC, it isn't remotely worth a class over.

Since we do agree that there should be a consequences, we're just nitcounting.

And agreed on rangers.

As for NPCs vs. PCs in general...

A 10th level NPC vs. a 10th level PC, assuming equivalant abilities = fair fight. 50-50. Period. End of fucking story.

The idea that NPCs are push overs and PCs get to break people because they're the Protagonists does not apply here.

If Greedo was Han's level and didn't blow his Wisdom check, it'd be a fair fight. He did blow the check and he's not. Thusly, he failed...and Han killed the sorry son of a bitch.

[bkdubs123]

As a replacement for the Barbarian and Ranger I wrote the Wildman class, a long time ago. Though it is rather cumbersome, it might be a good start. It ended up as a sort of Scout + Barbarian + Ranger thingy.

[Elennsar]

Worth looking at as a start, if only to get a general sense of what stuff is available.

So, let's see it. Worst comes to worst we can at least see what won't work, which is as good if not better than seeing what will.

[bkdubs123]

Well, hopefully, I can figure these forums out quickly enough. Keep in mind, it's a pretty badly designed class, too complicated, too many frills, but there's some decent stuff in there. It is of course on a higher power level than the standard 3.5 Barbarian or Ranger - I tend to balance toward Tome of Battle classes.

The Wildman

Hit Dice: d8
Saves: Good Fort and Ref, Poor Will

Code: [Select]

LV  Base Atk Bonus    Class Features
1.   +1               Instincts, Adrenaline Rush, AC Bonus, Darkvision, Wild Empathy
2.   +2               Skirmish +1d6/+1, Resist Nature's Lure
3.   +3               Gift of the Wild, Woodland Stride
4.   +4               Uncanny Dodge, Trackless Step
5.   +5               Skirmish +2d6/+1, Fast Movement +10
6.   +6/+1            Extra Instincts, Camouflage
7.   +7/+2            Improved Uncanny Dodge
8.   +8/+3            Skirmish +2d6/+2
9.   +9/+4            Gift of the Wild, Scent
10.  +10/+5           Evasion, Fast Movement +20
11.  +11/+6/+1        Skirmish +3d6/+2, Extra Instincts
12.  +12/+7/+2        Improved Adrenaline Rush
13.  +13/+8/+3        Tremorsense, Savage Stalker
14.  +14/+9/+4        Skirmish +3d6/+3
15.  +15/+10/+5       Gift of the Wild, Fast Movement +30
16.  +16/+11/+6/+1    Extra Instincts, Hide in Plain Sight
17.  +17/+12/+7/+2    Skirmish +4d6/+3
18.  +18/+13/+8/+3    Mettle, Intuition
19.  +19/+14/+9/+4    Earthtell 1/day
20.  +20/+15/+10/+5   Skirmish +4d6/+4, Mighty Adrenaline Rush, Blindsense, Fast Movement +40

Class Skills (6+Int per level): Balance, Climb, Craft, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Handle Animal, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Nature), Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Listen, Move Silently, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble, Use Rope

Proficiencies: Proficient with all simple weapons, all martial bows, and with light armor, but not with shields.

Instincts: At first level a Wildman chooses a terrain and a creature type. While within the selected terrain he gains a +3 competence bonus to all Balance, Climb, Disable Device, Heal, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Search, Survival, Swim, and Tumble checks as well as to saving throws against traps. While fighting against the chosen creature type he gains a +3 competence bonus to all Escape Artist, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Wild Empathy checks, as  well as to damage rolls against that creature type. Whenever a Wildman gains Extra Instincts he can choose an additional terrain and an additional creature type or choose to raise the bonus he gets from any existing terrain and creature type he has chosen.

Adrenaline Rush: As long as a Wildman is at or below 25% of his maximum hitpoints he gains a +2 circumstance bonus to melee attack and damage rolls, a +2 circumstance bonus to AC, a +10 bonus to his base land speed, and Fast Healing 1. At 12th level these bonuses improve to +4 to melee attack and damage, +4 to AC, +20 to base land speed, and Fast Healing 3. At 20th level these bonuses improve again to +8 to melee attacks and damage, +6 to AC, +30 to base land speed, and Fast Healing 5.

AC Bonus: As long as the Wildman wears light or no armor he adds his Wisdom modifier to his AC in addition to his Dexterity.

Darkvision: Wildmen have Darkvision out to a range equal to 10x(1/2 Wildman level rounded up+2). Wildmen also have low-light vision out to twice that.

Wild Empathy: As Druid.

Skirmish: At 2nd level a Wildman's fighting style begins to take shape. As Scout's ability.

Resist Nature's Lure: As Druid.

Gift of the Wild: At 3rd level, and every six levels thereafter, a Wildman gains a +1 inherent bonus to a any ability score. Wildmen must rely on a harmony between mind and body to survive.

Woodland Stride: As Druid.

Uncanny Dodge: As Barbarian. This becomes Improved Uncanny Dodge at 7th level.

Trackless Step: As Druid.

Fast Movement: At 5th level and every five levels thereafter a Wildman gains a +10 bonus to his speed.

Camouflage: As Ranger.

Scent: As in the Monster Manual.

Evasion: As Monk.

Tremorsense: As in the Monster Manual.

Savage Stalker: Creature's cannot perceive a Wildman with any scent, tremorsense, or blindsense qualities without first succeeding on a perception check against the Wildman's Stealth check.

Hide in Plain Sight: As Ranger.

Mettle: As Hexblade.

Intuition: As Justicar (Complete Warrior).

Earthtell: Once per day, at 18th level onward, a Wildman can scour an area for 1 minute to produce an effect like that of a Stone Tell spell, except that it can be used on any natural, unworked location.

Blindsense: As in the Monster Manual.

[Elennsar]

Interesting stuff, nonetheless. At least some of this can probably be pulled out and reused, possibly toned down, but the gist of it seems worth looking over more than the glance-and-see-if-anything-stands-out I just gave it.

[bkdubs123]

Yeah, that was my thought at least.

[SiggyDevil]

Interesting stuff, nonetheless. At least some of this can probably be pulled out and reused, possibly toned down, but the gist of it seems worth looking over more than the glance-and-see-if-anything-stands-out I just gave it.

 

No. Don't go any lower.
As a warrior it's OK, except maybe the Fast Healing each round when below 25% HP. Out of battle at level 1, sure. Any goon with a 2k gp item can do that. But in battle? No thanks.

[bkdubs123]

except maybe the Fast Healing each round when below 25% HP. Out of battle at level 1, sure. Any goon with a 2k gp item can do that. But in battle? No thanks.

And what exactly is the problem with fast healing under 25% health? Dragon Shaman aura which activates at lower than 50% aura, for everyone... and this isn't at all considered broken, or even really that great...

[SiggyDevil]

Yeah but the healing doesn't cost this guy anything. Not even a Swift action.

[Prime32]

Yeah but the healing doesn't cost this guy anything. Not even a Swift action.

*cough*saint*cough*warshaper*cough*

[bkdubs123]

Yeah but the healing doesn't cost this guy anything. Not even a Swift action.

I fear you are succumbing more to the "Fighters Can't Have Nice Things" syndrome on this one than anything else. This kind of fast healing isn't really that dangerous, and all it does it help, not prevent, the Wildman from getting killed, while he goes on a rampage. He's already below 25% health. One or two strong blows and he's done for, regardless of fast healing.

I mean, I hate to seem like I'm adamantly defending this because it's my class. I don't even really like this guy that much, but the fast healing is one of the cooler things it's got going for it. Feel free to pick apart the other stuff, half of it is stupid, or unnecessary, but I think the fast healing needs to stay.

[Elennsar]

I disagree, but that's for entirely seperate reasons. (I dislike D&D hit points as is, which means mechanics playing with how they are as is don't mesh)

As for fighters and cool stuff...I think there's a crucial problem here.

It is assumed that only stuff that is magical/supernatural (whether called "extraordinary" or not) is cool stuff.

Aragorn doesn't have anything like that. Tell me that he's not cool. I dare you. Same with Leonidas (the historical one, not Butler in a diaper)


As for "lower"...as stated before, I'm for a more toned down game in general. More Indiana Jones, less Spiderman.

Beyond that, the Wildman is more "Interesting set of what seems to be "wildman" stuff".

So...anyway. A question I want to ask those who are interested in this.

What is the lowest level of spells you would be comfortable treating as "this is the work of Great Mages."?

I'm all for making sure lower level magic is useful, and editing out those magics that make mundane skills irrelevant, but that's seperate. What is the lowest point you would be comfortable setting "mages cannot do more than this" at?

Sample spell/s you want to keep, possibly toned down if from a higher level, are also requested.

Any specific discussion on that will go in a seperate thread, but knowing what guys with swords and bows have to be able to deal with from the magi over the world will help in figuring out what they should get.

Any spells from higher than the cut off point, if they exist at all (to be determined individuall) will be available only by ritual and similar inconvenience, so saying "7th level is the max" doesn't mean no wizard will ever be able to summon a greater demon...just that its not something he can reliably pull out of his GIH (Giant Invisible Hat).

[SiggyDevil]

I fear you are succumbing more to the "Fighters Can't Have Nice Things" syndrome on this one than anything else. This kind of fast healing isn't really that dangerous, and all it does it help, not prevent, the Wildman from getting killed, while he goes on a rampage. He's already below 25% health. One or two strong blows and he's done for, regardless of fast healing.

Then stop fearing, because I've been pushing for other players to accept the fact that when using even core rules any party can get unlimited healing.
It's called Cure Minor Wounds on an unlimited use item.2k gp I believe, maybe 4k if you make it for anyone to use.
Plenty of gamers have tried to argue me to the ground (mostly on ENWorld and WOTC, ample agreement on TGD) about it but all they can show is Oberoni claiming that the item crafting rules are broken, or healing is broken.

The problem with your class is that it does this healing at level 1. Delay it to a point wherein a character could afford an unlimited CMW item and I would seriously just say "It's perfect!"
Otherwise, a 1-level dip for anyone can give this ability. If that's the case then just cut the crap and give that kind of free capped-healing as a feat for anyone at any level, or make it a setting wide change (which I'd have no problem since it affects everyone).

What the hell is a saint and warshaper? More splat shit I'll bet.

[Elennsar]

Saint: Brokenly overpowered template from Book of Exalted Deeds.
Warshaper: (As I recall) prestige class from Complete Warrior.

As for dipping: One of the things in this project is to make dipping impossible. As in, not permited.

I'm not sure if the item is broken (beyond any breaking of item crafting and/or healing), but still.

Personally, my problem with fast healing/regeneration/etc. is that they make no sense with the idea that hit points aren't actual injury (and if they are actual injury, they make even less than no sense).

D&D hit points are a seperate issue, however.

[SiggyDevil]

Thanks. I read up on them and it turns out that yes indeed the first is a template and the second is a PrC, both available a bit later than L1.
See, it's not the fact that this class heals constantly that bugs me, but the level at which it gets this ability.

Hell, I'm planning on a Troll racial class for the Feybook project and need to debate how I'll handle low level Fast Healing if at all.
It's crucial to the Troll stereotype.
Perhaps I'll do "only while resting" or "not in combat", but if all else fails I'll make it exactly as The Wildman's healing; with a cap.

[Elennsar]

I would say "only while resting". Trolls who can regenerate from wounds that should have killed them make sense. Being unable to fething kill a troll without acid or fire in combat doesn't.

[SiggyDevil]

Well yeah I'd have restrictions on it but the Fire/Acid would be racial, really.
Just as likely to have regional Trolls injured by Ice/Water or Electric/Light.

As for healing outside of combat, that would be a restriction as well.
Later on that restriction is relaxed and then done away with.
Eventually, as the healing bonus is increased, the class (as Wildman could as well) gets the power to force even faster healing by using Standard, then Move, then Swift actions, possibly adding a static value or class level to the healing.
Compare to the second Vampire/Lycan dude with wings in Underworld 2 (not the main male character). He pauses after being mauled by a truck, snaps his bones back in to place, and explodes with healing.
That's badass but in RPG terms it cost him actions; without actions, to do that in mid-combat is... too damned good.

[Elennsar]

Quite. However, in my opinion, no point working out ways to recover from damage before working out how damage is dealt with.

And the current D&D system fails.

I've a thread with the start of an idea on it. Anyone who wishes to discuss it and fast healing/regeneration/etc., now seems like a good time to do it.

[bkdubs123]

Well, I definitely think that the current hitpoints do not fail miserably. What's wrong with Fast Healing granted through rage and adrenaline with hitpoints as abstract as they are? One just has to remember that hitpoints aren't always physical wounds - then again sometimes they are, they just aren't really bad. Then again, sometimes they might be kind of bad, but in DnD you are a HERO who looks at the deep gash, scoffs at it, and keeps fighting. Again, I don't think there is anything wrong with hitpoints or how they are currently implemented.

[Elennsar]

In heroic fiction (fantasy or not), a hero can get a serious wound, and if it is serious enough, it fucking sucks. Its not "yes, you ripped off my arm, big deal." It is a problem.

Actual injury does matter. Now, do heroes get hurt often or easily? No. Do they fight on despite injury? If they're tough (mentally and/or physically) enough, yes.

But D&D hit points are abstract to the point of meaningless. Let's say I "hit" someone with a greatsword. And a crit. And Strength 18.

26 damage. Which should, by all rights, be a fairly seriously blow, yes?

Except, with D&D hit points as abstract as they are, I may not have even hit the guy. He may have "dodged but used some of his stamina (thusly losing hit points)"...as distinct from how if I'd missed he'd have dodged but not tired himself?!?!

Hit points make "wounded" a nonstate. And it really isn't. Heroes may be able to deal with injury, but they do get injured.

And they don't die by having more-hit-points-than-a-fucking-elephant getting wittled away.

Its just not fitting to the genre.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to make hit points into something that's basically like this:

You get hit.
You die.

But I do want to represent heroes and how injuries impede them and how their overall condition being weakened will impede them as well (Even if they can summon the will to go on despite that, there has to be something for their force of will to overcome.)

Where is the heroism without actual peril? If I want to play the adventures of Golemman, who feared neither death (because of readily available spells) or pain (because there is no such thing), D&D works fine.

But it works absolutely fucking miserably at representing on how Conan, despite the fact he should be dead by now, is able to overcome that by the strength of his will alone, and fight on despite injuries that even he does not regard as minor.