Author Topic: Uber's Tiers  (Read 61975 times)

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JaronK

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Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #60 on: October 14, 2008, 04:02:28 AM »
Inspire Awe blows chunks.  Haunting Melody also blows chunks.  Sorcerer can easily get intimidate on his skill list.  What does he lose for PrCing into a full CL class with intimidate on the list?  Jack shit.

Are you MAD?

I mean really.  Inspire Awe is incredible.  It's so powerful I had to ban it from the last game I DMed.  Anything that isn't immune to fear is basically hosed.  The save is based on a perform check from a bard (read: stupidly high), and you can be singing it basically all day long.  Since fear effects last as long as the longest fear effect, this means that just one more fear effect is needed to make enemies frightened, panicked, or cowering for as long as the bard likes, and it's an AoE effect with a 30' (and later 60') range.  Bring in Haunting Melody or just the Never Outnumbered skill trick and the bard can debilitate encounters with ease.  Imperious Command helps, but isn't necessary.  Think about it: the enemy must make two saves, the DC of which is a Bard's charisma based skill check, and if they fail they're just helpless.  And again: it's hitting everyone in the encounter.  It's an insane ability.  How the heck do you say it "blows chunks?"  And are you aware that there's a feat that lets bards penetrate undead mind effecting immunity when you say that?  Requiem, in case you're wondering.

As for Sorcerers, they're not exactly swimming in skill points, nor do that many Sorcerer PrCs have intimidate as a class skill.

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Dragonfire Inspiration is inferior in every way to inspire courage.  No shit.  If you take it you're a gimp. 

Inferior in every way except that it's not a moral bonus, thus fixing the very stacking issues you were talking about.  Also, the massive damage increase is rather potent, especially as an army leader dealing with massed archers (who can usually hit fine but have trouble dealing enough damage). 

You're not being very imaginitive here, and you seem to be VERY judgemental... anything you haven't figured out the utility of is gimped or blows chunks.  That's not a good attitude for someone who's trying to judge so many classes.

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Optimized bards are tier 3.  I've never debated that.  Optimized sorcerers are tier 1.  Optimized clerics are tier 0.

Even an unoptimized Bard 1 with a completely random feat and completely random skills (except perform ranks maxed, is that optimized too much for your groupings?  Because that's about as optimized as giving Factotums their only Factotum only feat...) given a Masterwork Wardrum can change the result of a massive battle with Inspire Courage.  And the idea that unoptimized Bards are one trick ponies that can't switch roles is ludicrous... as crazy as saying that about Factotums, really.

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Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #61 on: October 14, 2008, 04:08:05 AM »
1 beef: When considering the tier of spell slot casters, optimization should always be on a "worst case scenario" basis rather than depend on the skill of any player.

It's a matter of what they COULD do rather than what they TEND TO BE given the selection at hand.
Granted, select spells could be nerfed, but that's the realm of House Ruling and Oberoni (the former of which I dwell in here, trying best not to do the latter)

I usually go by core-only in these kinds of comparisons (when appropriate, because obviously the Ardent and Psychic Warrior are not in the PHB) since considering spells splats just tend to outright propel Tier 1-2 to the moon.

Other than that, no disagreement from me on your decisions, ubernoob.

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Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #62 on: October 14, 2008, 04:37:57 AM »
Inspire Awe blows chunks.  Haunting Melody also blows chunks.  Sorcerer can easily get intimidate on his skill list.  What does he lose for PrCing into a full CL class with intimidate on the list?  Jack shit.

Are you MAD?

I mean really.  Inspire Awe is incredible.  It's so powerful I had to ban it from the last game I DMed.  Anything that isn't immune to fear is basically hosed.  The save is based on a perform check from a bard (read: stupidly high), and you can be singing it basically all day long.  Since fear effects last as long as the longest fear effect, this means that just one more fear effect is needed to make enemies frightened, panicked, or cowering for as long as the bard likes, and it's an AoE effect with a 30' (and later 60') range.  Bring in Haunting Melody or just the Never Outnumbered skill trick and the bard can debilitate encounters with ease.  Imperious Command helps, but isn't necessary.  Think about it: the enemy must make two saves, the DC of which is a Bard's charisma based skill check, and if they fail they're just helpless.  And again: it's hitting everyone in the encounter.  It's an insane ability.  How the heck do you say it "blows chunks?"  And are you aware that there's a feat that lets bards penetrate undead mind effecting immunity when you say that?  Requiem, in case you're wondering.
It's a fear effect.  It's not like the enemies that matter care and just about anyone stealth oriented was immune anyways.  Yeah.  Blows chunks on both counts.  Even if you restrict it to monsters, it does jack shit against mindless.
Quote from: JaronK
As for Sorcerers, they're not exactly swimming in skill points, nor do that many Sorcerer PrCs have intimidate as a class skill.
Whoopdy shit.  What else do they have to spend skill points.  Sorcerers don't fucking need skill points.  It's a 25 point difference at max, which is nothing for a real caster.
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Dragonfire Inspiration is inferior in every way to inspire courage.  No shit.  If you take it you're a gimp. 

Inferior in every way except that it's not a moral bonus, thus fixing the very stacking issues you were talking about.  Also, the massive damage increase is rather potent, especially as an army leader dealing with massed archers (who can usually hit fine but have trouble dealing enough damage). 
You're honestly telling me that enemies that matter at level 20 won't have energy resistance 30 or more... What are you smoking?  Let's look at CR 20s:
Dragons-Get fucking sorcerer casting and racial immunities.  Immune to at least two elements with resist 30 to everything else.  Flat out ignores your guys.
Big T-Doesn't give a shit about your damage because he has DR 15 and immunity to fire along with Big T regen.  He eats your guys.
Balor-DR and resistance along with insanity to make your guys kill eachother.
Pit Fiend-Immunity, resistance, DR, Regen, SLAs to stunlock your guys.

Yeah, it's a fucking joke.  At least with the morale bonus you can power attack away the bonus and get damage that automatically stacks rather than being resisted or immunitied.
Quote from: JaronK
You're not being very imaginitive here, and you seem to be VERY judgemental... anything you haven't figured out the utility of is gimped or blows chunks.  That's not a good attitude for someone who's trying to judge so many classes.
Sure it is.  The ability to call a spade a spade is what makes me better than the vast majority of humans.
Quote from: JaronK
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Optimized bards are tier 3.  I've never debated that.  Optimized sorcerers are tier 1.  Optimized clerics are tier 0.

Even an unoptimized Bard 1 with a completely random feat and completely random skills (except perform ranks maxed, is that optimized too much for your groupings?  Because that's about as optimized as giving Factotums their only Factotum only feat...) given a Masterwork Wardrum can change the result of a massive battle with Inspire Courage.  And the idea that unoptimized Bards are one trick ponies that can't switch roles is ludicrous... as crazy as saying that about Factotums, really.

JaronK
Let's see:
0 bab
d6 HD
cantrips
Shit profs
Can sing to replicate a first level, but not as good (prayer).  That's pretty darn worthless.

Factotum?
0 bab
d6 HD
Martial Profs
No notable combat actions at all

That sucks pretty hard.
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Omen of Peace

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Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #63 on: October 14, 2008, 06:03:56 AM »
Greater heroism is +4.  The fact that a bard has to compete with that means that he's basically only worth how much above greater heroism he is.  IC would be good, but it would be better if it wasn't the most common bonus type to attack rolls.
So you're using an action and a 6th level slot to cast this 1 min/lvl spell that benefits 1 person ? (It's Range: Touch so no chaining without at least Archmage) To be Tier 1 the wizard better do something else...

Re Dragonfire Inspiration: I thought the comparison was for levels 6-12 mostly. There resistance amounts to a lot less. For people who want to invest in it... make it sonic (but that's a truckload of feats - I wouldn't go for it).
I agree high levels are tough for a bard. (But Dragons have nowhere near the amount of resistances you mention !?)

Inspire Awe is powerful. Heroes' Feast is a problem but how many enemies will benefit from it ? They're not all the henchmen of some cleric.
If you start on counter-tactics, wizards can lose yet again at intermediate levels: invisible and silent enemies (maybe even a grappler ?) will kick the wizard's ass before he gets Contingency.

In the end I don't really mind the bias - there's bound to be some.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2008, 06:06:09 AM by Omen of Peace »
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Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #64 on: October 14, 2008, 06:13:34 AM »
Greater heroism is +4.  The fact that a bard has to compete with that means that he's basically only worth how much above greater heroism he is.  IC would be good, but it would be better if it wasn't the most common bonus type to attack rolls.
So you're using an action and a 6th level slot to cast this 1 min/lvl spell that benefits 1 person ? (It's Range: Touch so no chaining without at least Archmage) To be Tier 1 the wizard better do something else...
I'm saying if you replaced the bard with a sorcerer you wouldn't lose the full bonus.  At 1 min/level greater heroism lasts a decent enough lenght of time not to be cast in combat.
Quote from: Omen
Re Dragonfire Inspiration: I thought the comparison was for levels 6-12 mostly. There resistance amounts to a lot less. For people who want to invest in it... make it sonic (but that's a truckload of feats - I wouldn't go for it).
I agree high levels are tough for a bard.
A bard doesn't even start getting a respectable inspire courage til level 6.  Level 6 is when bards start becoming playable for high end IC.  Level 9 and 12 are good boosts as well, but you're using SC/Virtuoso so start getting high end spells when IC stop boosting so fast.  Bards start being effective at level 6.  They never really stop being effective after that if you plan your stuff right.

As for dragonfire inspiration, you should never ever spend a feat on it.  It's a complete waste of resources (really, +1 TH/Dmg for 1d6 energy damage?  That's the exact same ratio as buying a flaming weapon.  Sure it's all the same type, but really.  Just power attack for 1).
Quote from: Omen
Inspire Awe is powerful. Heroes' Feast is a problem but how many enemies will benefit from it ? They're not all the henchmen of some cleric.
If you start on counter-tactics, wizards can lose yet again at intermediate levels: invisible and silent enemies (maybe even a grappler ?) will kick the wizard's ass before he gets Contingency.
Anything immune to mind effecting ignores it.  That includes mindblank.  Also, silence.

Oh, and wizards getting grappled?  D Door.  Rogue, Binder, and Incarnate fear invisible closet monsters more.  This assumes something detect invisibility can't get, because that can be permanancied.

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In the end I don't really mind the bias - there's bound to be some.
Of course.
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Omen of Peace

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Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #65 on: October 14, 2008, 06:43:15 AM »
D Door => Silence (that's one of the spells you said made Inspire Awe suck, so I'm reusing it ;)). Or pinning for that matter.
I know that you know it, but if your NPC is optimizing countering a Bard, he should have co-NPCs prepared for the wizard. :P

For IC: Inspirational Boost + Badge for +3 at level 3 (that's not heavy optimization - no Song of the Heart or Words of Creation). That's damn respectable at a level where it's mostly the dice that matter. At high levels you're pretty much sure to hit, so the only interest is feeding PA.

I'm not a huge fan of DFI either, but it has its uses (don't forget TWF...). Re-posting a sneak edit I made on the previous post:
(But Dragons have nowhere near the amount of resistances you mention !?)
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JaronK

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Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #66 on: October 14, 2008, 06:50:31 AM »
It's a fear effect.  It's not like the enemies that matter care and just about anyone stealth oriented was immune anyways.  Yeah.  Blows chunks on both counts.  Even if you restrict it to monsters, it does jack shit against mindless.

Yeah, because absolutely everyone uses hero's feast before every battle.  Not everyone has a pet Cleric to help out, nor does every Cleric use Hero's Feast, nor is Inspire Awe an ability that you can't use until high levels.  Likewise, not everyone has Silence memorized or always available (and if they do have Silence on themselves, now they can't cast spells with verbal components, which knock out Beguilers and whatnot... everyone in that Silence field just nerfed themselves).

Seriously, Inspire Awe works all day starting from level 1.  The best you've got is that some people can cast Silence (which nerfs casters as hard as anyone) and that at much higher levels you can launch Hero's Feast... sometimes?  That's why Inspire Awe is bad?  Or is it because some enemies are mind effecting (Requiem takes care of a LOT of that problem)?  Really?  Bad enough to blow chunks?  That's like saying Glitterdust sucks because someone might have a Blindfold of True Darkness and CR 20 foes will resist it or have Blindsight anyway.  

Best response, though, to the guys with Hero's Feast?  Fascinate the Cleric and Diplomacy him over to your side.  Yay, Hero's Feast for you!

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You're honestly telling me that enemies that matter at level 20 won't have energy resistance 30 or more... What are you smoking?  Let's look at CR 20s:
Dragons-Get fucking sorcerer casting and racial immunities.  Immune to at least two elements with resist 30 to everything else.  Flat out ignores your guys.
Big T-Doesn't give a shit about your damage because he has DR 15 and immunity to fire along with Big T regen.  He eats your guys.
Balor-DR and resistance along with insanity to make your guys kill eachother.
Pit Fiend-Immunity, resistance, DR, Regen, SLAs to stunlock your guys.

Interesting.  A moment ago everyone you were fighting was a Cleric (or partied with a one) or could UMD Silence (or cast it).  That seems to be assuming you're fighting casters, which means generally humanoids, most of which are not going to have immunity to whichever element your inspiration is doing (unless they were prepared for you with the right spells, but a good Bard isn't running around giving away the game plan ahead of time all the time, right?).  Now suddenly we're dealing with Balors, Dragons, and a bunch of other guys that can't cast Hero's Feast.   Is it just me, or are you picking and chosing counter examples without considering what these Bard abilities work on?  How many of the guys you just listed get ganked by Inspire Awe?  And how many of the Hero's Feast parties don't like taking 14 or so d6 Acid damage a round?

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Sure it is.  The ability to call a spade a spade is what makes me better than the vast majority of humans.

You mean the ability to shoot down ideas by comparing them only in their worst usages.  Hint: you use Inspire Awe against the people that don't have immunity to it.  You use Dragonfire Inspiration against the people who don't have immunity to that.

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Let's see:
0 bab
d6 HD
cantrips
Shit profs
Can sing to replicate a first level, but not as good (prayer).  That's pretty darn worthless.

If you're better than the majority of humans, surely you can see how this level 1 Bard you just described can tip the tide of a massive army sized battle.  Go ahead, see if you can do it.  I certainly can.  Then explain how any other class, at level 1, can tip the tide of a massive army sized battle.  Try for Tier 1 if it helps.  I'm not sure I can, though I might be forgetting someone.

JaronK

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Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #67 on: October 14, 2008, 08:33:21 AM »
At least at level 14 DFI worked quite fine against Mister T. Skydragonknight's bruiser made plenty of damage.

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Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #68 on: October 14, 2008, 11:00:06 AM »
I'd like to say that i don't agree on this so called "tier" system in general. That's because fun is a pretty darn important factor to me and some classes are really powerful but boring. I've played more wizards than i actually remember. I don't know every trick in the book, but i've used a fair amount of them.

Now on to the subject - bards are awesome. Last year i was in a campaign playing a typical human bard (including my all-times cliche favourite, improved familiar) optimized to a good degree. I must tell you, at a certain point i was the only one playing. I didn't actually want to, but i was covering so many roles, that my killing power wasn't that important. Sure, the party's wizard could be omnipotent or whatever, but he only took part in the actual game when we were rolling initiative.

That's where i disagree. Most people rate classes like "x can kill y, so x is better", which is not entirely correct (or even useful in a game in which you don't actually have to kill y :P).

About the bard now, there are some things that keep bugging me about their class skills. It's because neither intimidate nor spot makes it on their class skills list :/ Also, inspire awe seems good, but i would never replace inspire courage for anything, unless of course the party lacked a martial character.
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Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #69 on: October 14, 2008, 11:41:04 AM »
Or if it was an all-bard party. ;)
One Dragonfire Inspirer, one Courage Inspirer, etc...
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Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #70 on: October 14, 2008, 12:03:32 PM »
Or if it was an all-bard party. ;)
One Dragonfire Inspirer, one Courage Inspirer, etc...

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Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #71 on: October 14, 2008, 01:26:13 PM »
An all-Bard party, questing to find "die Unsterbliche Liebe" to obtain real, ultimate Bardy power.

Man, that sounds awesome. I think I'm going to try getting my group to play this party.

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Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #72 on: October 14, 2008, 01:44:21 PM »
Bard4/Warblade 16, Bard/Mindbender/Sublime Chord/Virtuoso, Bard/Marshal/Seeker of the Song, Bard 20.

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Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #73 on: October 14, 2008, 01:53:29 PM »
Too little Crusader and War weaver.

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Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #74 on: October 14, 2008, 02:08:38 PM »
Remember this:
Ubernoob's Tiers: Comparative Power As By Fuckability.
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Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #75 on: October 14, 2008, 02:14:48 PM »
Forgot all about the crusader/divine bard/war weaver (which I have no idea what it is).

Wait. Ruby Knight Vindicator Divine Bard Crusader.  :D :D :D :D :D

JaronK

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Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #76 on: October 14, 2008, 05:43:02 PM »
I'd like to say that i don't agree on this so called "tier" system in general. That's because fun is a pretty darn important factor to me and some classes are really powerful but boring. I've played more wizards than i actually remember. I don't know every trick in the book, but i've used a fair amount of them.

...

That's where i disagree. Most people rate classes like "x can kill y, so x is better", which is not entirely correct (or even useful in a game in which you don't actually have to kill y :P).

This is why in my Tier system I'm not just ranking in combat.  Games are more than just hacking through stuff, and the point of the system is to tell you what sorts of parties, when put together, allow their players to have fun.  Now, a good enough Wizard player usually can contribute just fine out of combat, though some aren't as creative about that as others.  But yes, a Bard ranks highly because of all the stuff you can do both in and out of combat.  Is a Barbarian probably more potent in combat?  Yeah.  But as soon as we leave combat the Barbarian just has Listen and Survival and Intimidate, and that's it.  Meanwhile, the Bard doesn't slow down at all.

It is, though, about fun.  One of the big issues I was trying to deal with is the situation where the party is Fighter, Beguiler, Druid, Cleric.  In combat, the Druid and Cleric are the best, though the Fighter contributes.  Out of combat, the Beguiler, Druid, and Cleric can all do fun and creative stuff, but there's just no point in the Fighter doing anything, as the others do everything far better.  That's not a good thing.  Now, change that party to Fighter, CA Ninja, Healer, Warmage, and suddenly the Fighter has a place to shine (combat) and even his lackluster out of combat skills mean something when the skillmonkey can't even do that much anyway.

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Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #77 on: October 14, 2008, 05:46:51 PM »
I'd like to say that i don't agree on this so called "tier" system in general. That's because fun is a pretty darn important factor to me and some classes are really powerful but boring. I've played more wizards than i actually remember. I don't know every trick in the book, but i've used a fair amount of them.

...

That's where i disagree. Most people rate classes like "x can kill y, so x is better", which is not entirely correct (or even useful in a game in which you don't actually have to kill y :P).

This is why in my Tier system I'm not just ranking in combat.  Games are more than just hacking through stuff, and the point of the system is to tell you what sorts of parties, when put together, allow their players to have fun.  Now, a good enough Wizard player usually can contribute just fine out of combat, though some aren't as creative about that as others.  But yes, a Bard ranks highly because of all the stuff you can do both in and out of combat.  Is a Barbarian probably more potent in combat?  Yeah.  But as soon as we leave combat the Barbarian just has Listen and Survival and Intimidate, and that's it.  Meanwhile, the Bard doesn't slow down at all.

It is, though, about fun.  One of the big issues I was trying to deal with is the situation where the party is Fighter, Beguiler, Druid, Cleric.  In combat, the Druid and Cleric are the best, though the Fighter contributes.  Out of combat, the Beguiler, Druid, and Cleric can all do fun and creative stuff, but there's just no point in the Fighter doing anything, as the others do everything far better.  That's not a good thing.  Now, change that party to Fighter, CA Ninja, Healer, Warmage, and suddenly the Fighter has a place to shine (combat) and even his lackluster out of combat skills mean something when the skillmonkey can't even do that much anyway.

JaronK
Total Fun=Fun in combat + fun out of combat

Out of combat abilty can't kill you as a default.  Out of combat your fun isn't measured by skill checks or any of that bullshit.  It's measured by screen time.  You can roleplay with ANYTHING.  Roleplay isn't constrained by the rules to have fun.  Combat is constrained by rules.

Basically, you're associating roleplay with crunch.  Stormwind much?
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Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #78 on: October 14, 2008, 06:01:20 PM »
Despite the "occasional" harsh language, this Tier-ing idea is a really good direction. Without a giant stat data-base to do kilo or mega run-throughs (like what DL57 did for 4e clerics), these whole threads are filtering out some specific details.

If you had Tiers with just Good , Average , and Bad ... I think it'd be an easy list; with fewer arguments.
If you had Tiers with Good , Average , Bad , and Ugly ... I think the list wouldn't change much.
i get the captain obvious award for the day

I agree with Frank's anti-TO idea, in terms of evaluating classes. I mean Commoner 1 into Pun or Blingy, just isn't helpful.

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Ardent + CPsi non updated = Tleilaxu_Ghola liked it so much he made 2 different 100+ post Gish threads about it. Ardent got lots more attention than PsyWar for a good year. I think I know why ... powers from 7s 8s and maybe even 9s lists, as a trade for losing a pile of feats.

Ardent + Mind's Eye updates = Substitute Powers is pick your own powers (more or less). Dominant Ideal is any metapsi for -2pp and no expend psi-focus. This includes Linked Power metapsi. Basically Fighter + Tier 1 Cohort = CO-Ardent.

So, I have to say weak Tier 3 for non-updated Ardent, solid Tier 2 for updated Ardent.

Recharge bumps either up 1 tier.

Bloodlines or Psiotheurgist feat from DR#349, turns Ardent into an early entry fast spell advance class. Ur-Priest or Sublime Chord like, but earlier. Weak Tier 4 til the trick, then effectively Tier Zero. Much more complicated than Druid + Nature Spell.

JaronK

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Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #79 on: October 14, 2008, 06:03:58 PM »
Total Fun=Fun in combat + fun out of combat

Out of combat abilty can't kill you as a default.  Out of combat your fun isn't measured by skill checks or any of that bullshit.  It's measured by screen time.  You can roleplay with ANYTHING.  Roleplay isn't constrained by the rules to have fun.  Combat is constrained by rules.

Basically, you're associating roleplay with crunch.  Stormwind much?

Um, no, that's not Stormwind.  Not even close.  I'm saying that a class that can't do anything out of combat for the group (because everyone in the group does those things better) doesn't get to do things out of combat, which is not fun.

Example:  Somebody has to sneak into a hostile town (maybe it's dark elves and you're human, or whatever) and find out information about where the princess was taken.  Now, maybe the Beguiler uses Disguise Self and sneaks in, gets the lay of the land, uses some diplomacy, uses some gather information, interacts with the town, and finds out what's going on.  Maybe the Rogue does the same thing except with the Disguise skill.  Heck, maybe the Cleric makes good use of Divine Insight.  There's a whole lot of potencial things to do in town, from scouting locations to finding out who exactly is around and how tough they are to actually locating the princess to just shopping.  The Fighter?  He stays home and guards the camp.  Not much to RP with back at the camp.  Not fun.  If he went into town, his inability to deal with social stuff (like, bluff and pretend he's not who he is) means he'd be a liability.  He's just not worth bringing.

Basic rule: out of combat, only the person who's best at doing something in the party will do it.  Sometimes teamwork is needed, but in skill areas you're either good enough or you're not, generally, and bringing in weaker people is just a liability.  Nobody likes to feel like dead weight or a liability.  That's not fun.  

To be clear: I made the Tier system because of this exact sort of issue.  I watched people not having fun because they thought their characters were dead weight, or generally couldn't contribute.  And I wanted to make a useful tool for allowing DMs to see that one coming and deal with it in advance.  This includes out of combat situations where the melees are often left back home because the skillmonkeys and spellcasters were the only ones who had useful abilities, as well as in combat abilities where the melee specialists were often being overwhelmed by casters who just felt like meleeing today.  People like to have a chance to shine.  They want to be able to say "I did this!  It was awesome!"  And that "this" can be in combat or out.  But it has to be somewhere, and you want a roughly equal amount of awesome things to happen which each player.

JaornK