Uber's Tiers

[JaronK]

Uber, once again, the three Factotums I've seen played recently were two players who'd never played D&D before and one player who'd never even seen the class until the day he started playing.  All three just picked the one feat that's Factotum only and wanted flexibility so they grabbed Alter Self.  It's like Druids and Natural Spell... even a newbie grabs that too because it's the only Druid feat in the PHB.  So yeah, absolute newbies to the class go for Font of Inspiration, and Alter Self is evidently pretty straightforward too.

As for that pimped out Bard, you know how I made him?  I went on Crystal Keep and looked up feats for Bardic Music, then through in Jack of All Trades and Imperious Command.  That's it.

JaronK

[Ubernoob]

Uber, once again, the three Factotums I've seen played recently were two players who'd never played D&D before and one player who'd never even seen the class until the day he started playing.  All three just picked the one feat that's Factotum only and wanted flexibility so they grabbed Alter Self.  It's like Druids and Natural Spell... even a newbie grabs that too because it's the only Druid feat in the PHB.  So yeah, absolute newbies to the class go for Font of Inspiration, and Alter Self is evidently pretty straightforward too.

And how many players play with you to show them the feat?

As for that pimped out Bard, you know how I made him?  I went on Crystal Keep and looked up feats for Bardic Music, then through in Jack of All Trades and Imperious Command.  That's it.

JaronK

And how many players actually go to crystal keep to look up feats?

[Tshern]

Handbooks provide much of the same information and at least I know a bunch of people who go through a mountain of real books to find stuff related to their prospective build. Then again, the same people now pester me to get their job done.

[Cyrocloud]

If FoI was in Dungeonscape I might agree with you JaronK, but it is in a relitivly obscure web article, so I have to agree with uber on the point.

[Sinfire Titan]

If FoI was in Dungeonscape I might agree with you JaronK, but it is in a relitivly obscure web article, so I have to agree with uber on the point.

Wouldn't it be great if they printed all of the Online material? It would make Erudite Tier 1!

[Operation Shoestring]

Uber, are you *Seriously* arguing that Bard and Factotum should be downrated because the average player cannot optimize them well?  By that argument, Sorcerors should be tier 4.  The player who can't see the obvious utility of FoI isn't going to make a tier 2 optimized sorc, he's going to make a weak-tea blaster that the warmage puts to shame.  And don't even get me started on how badly the artificer fails if you allow player incompetence to influence ranking that much.

[Ubernoob]

Uber, are you *Seriously* arguing that Bard and Factotum should be downrated because the average player cannot optimize them well?  By that argument, Sorcerors should be tier 4.  The player who can't see the obvious utility of FoI isn't going to make a tier 2 optimized sorc, he's going to make a weak-tea blaster that the warmage puts to shame.  And don't even get me started on how badly the artificer fails if you allow player incompetence to influence ranking that much.

I'm argueing that the player can't be assumed to know the top end of optimization (which is all JaronK has suggested) or else they won't be using the tiers in the first place.  The average player can make a competent sorcerer.  They have plenty of chances to pick decent spells.   Artificer is also very forgiving.  Your feats practically don't matter and they have all the equipment they want.

[Omen of Peace]

You're bound to lose if you go the "how many players" way, ubernoob. Case in point: the Cleric. Most Clerics out there are fucking healbots. And wizards lob magic missiles and fireballs. Not really Tier 1.

As for the bard: if you don't like energy damage, keep the +X to hit/dmg (+3 from level 3 on with just Insp. Boost and the Badge of Valor).

[Ubernoob]

You're bound to lose if you go the "how many players" way, ubernoob. Case in point: the Cleric. Most Clerics out there are fucking healbots. And wizards lob magic missiles and fireballs. Not really Tier 1.

As for the bard: if you don't like energy damage, keep the +X to hit/dmg (+3 from level 3 on with just Insp. Boost and the Badge of Valor).

Cleric is a forgiving class.  You can actually change your spells.  As for bad, that's a morale bonus

[Omen of Peace]

And what's wrong with morale bonuses ? Other than the fact that they don't affect effigies/astral constructs/mindblanked PCs ?

[Ubernoob]

And what's wrong with morale bonuses ? Other than the fact that they don't affect effigies/astral constructs/mindblanked PCs ?

The fact that they don't stack as often.

[Sinfire Titan]

And what's wrong with morale bonuses ? Other than the fact that they don't affect effigies/astral constructs/mindblanked PCs ?

The fact that they don't stack as often.

We've seen Bards toting around Inspire Courage set to +16, was it? Don't need to stack that much more on a Morale bonus.

[Ubernoob]

And what's wrong with morale bonuses ? Other than the fact that they don't affect effigies/astral constructs/mindblanked PCs ?

The fact that they don't stack as often.

We've seen Bards toting around Inspire Courage set to +16, was it? Don't need to stack that much more on a Morale bonus.

Aye.  Bards be quite pimp with optimization.  Quite pimp.

[Sinfire Titan]

And what's wrong with morale bonuses ? Other than the fact that they don't affect effigies/astral constructs/mindblanked PCs ?

The fact that they don't stack as often.

We've seen Bards toting around Inspire Courage set to +16, was it? Don't need to stack that much more on a Morale bonus.

Aye.  Bards be quite pimp with optimization.  Quite pimp.

Hell, +10 without it is nothing to sneeze at. That's just Bard 20 with Words of Creation.

[Omen of Peace]

The fact that they don't stack as often.

Are you referring to Aid/Heroism ? IC is so much better that I shouldn't even mention them... It's not like other bonuses are absent (Recitation).
It appears we'll disagree so I'm just trying to understand.

[Ubernoob]

The fact that they don't stack as often.

Are you referring to Aid/Heroism ? IC is so much better that I shouldn't even mention them... It's not like other bonuses are absent (Recitation).
It appears we'll disagree so I'm just trying to understand.

Greater heroism is +4.  The fact that a bard has to compete with that means that he's basically only worth how much above greater heroism he is.  IC would be good, but it would be better if it wasn't the most common bonus type to attack rolls.

[Operation Shoestring]

The fact that they don't stack as often.

Are you referring to Aid/Heroism ? IC is so much better that I shouldn't even mention them... It's not like other bonuses are absent (Recitation).
It appears we'll disagree so I'm just trying to understand.

Greater heroism is +4.  The fact that a bard has to compete with that means that he's basically only worth how much above greater heroism he is.  IC would be good, but it would be better if it wasn't the most common bonus type to attack rolls.

And just who is casting G. heroism, anyway, other than the bard himself?  The wizard, if he even spends an action to buff the party, is probably going to cast Haste.

[Ubernoob]

The fact that they don't stack as often.

Are you referring to Aid/Heroism ? IC is so much better that I shouldn't even mention them... It's not like other bonuses are absent (Recitation).
It appears we'll disagree so I'm just trying to understand.

Greater heroism is +4.  The fact that a bard has to compete with that means that he's basically only worth how much above greater heroism he is.  IC would be good, but it would be better if it wasn't the most common bonus type to attack rolls.

And just who is casting G. heroism, anyway, other than the bard himself?  The wizard, if he even spends an action to buff the party, is probably going to cast Haste.

Well, the bard could be replaced with say a sorcerer who can do the same intimidation tricks.  There's a reason sorcerers are tier 2.

I'm just musing that because IC is a morale bonus it gives less gain than it should when you add IC to a party.  Bards are by no means a weak class.  Anything tier 4 or above is certainly playable.  With optimization bards are incredibly good.

[JaronK]

Well, the bard could be replaced with say a sorcerer who can do the same intimidation tricks.  There's a reason sorcerers are tier 2.

Not really.  Sorcerers don't have intimidate on their class list, plus they don't have the awesome bardic fear abilities (Inspire Awe and Haunting Melody, both of which have insane durations, which is the point).  They're really not as good at it.

I'm just musing that because IC is a morale bonus it gives less gain than it should when you add IC to a party.  Bards are by no means a weak class.  Anything tier 4 or above is certainly playable.  With optimization bards are incredibly good.

Thing is, there are all kinds of stacking issues, but getting around the morale issue is no problem (Dragonfire Inspiration is an obvious method).  And the Bard I listed, which did pretty much everything you said couldn't be combined (not a great caster though) was optimized, but not hugely so... that bonus could have gone a lot higher.  Heck, just giving him some Masterwork War Drums would let him give an even higher bonus to an entire army.  That's one of the reasons Bards make some of the best war leaders out there (along with Archivists and Cloistered Clerics).

JaronK

[Ubernoob]

Well, the bard could be replaced with say a sorcerer who can do the same intimidation tricks.  There's a reason sorcerers are tier 2.

Not really.  Sorcerers don't have intimidate on their class list, plus they don't have the awesome bardic fear abilities (Inspire Awe and Haunting Melody, both of which have insane durations, which is the point).  They're really not as good at it.

Inspire Awe blows chunks.  Haunting Melody also blows chunks.  Sorcerer can easily get intimidate on his skill list.  What does he lose for PrCing into a full CL class with intimidate on the list?  Jack shit.

I'm just musing that because IC is a morale bonus it gives less gain than it should when you add IC to a party.  Bards are by no means a weak class.  Anything tier 4 or above is certainly playable.  With optimization bards are incredibly good.

Thing is, there are all kinds of stacking issues, but getting around the morale issue is no problem (Dragonfire Inspiration is an obvious method).  And the Bard I listed, which did pretty much everything you said couldn't be combined (not a great caster though) was optimized, but not hugely so... that bonus could have gone a lot higher.  Heck, just giving him some Masterwork War Drums would let him give an even higher bonus to an entire army.  That's one of the reasons Bards make some of the best war leaders out there (along with Archivists and Cloistered Clerics).

JaronK

Dragonfire Inspiration is inferior in every way to inspire courage.  No shit.  If you take it you're a gimp.  Optimized bards are tier 3.  I've never debated that.  Optimized sorcerers are tier 1.  Optimized clerics are tier 0.