Author Topic: Uber's Tiers  (Read 61974 times)

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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #220 on: October 16, 2008, 07:21:16 PM »
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Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #221 on: October 16, 2008, 07:23:03 PM »
I've read the entire thread and I didn't post anything to suggest people should prepare CLW. That's why I didn't like the tone you used after quoting my message.
You were stating the obvious.
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Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #222 on: October 16, 2008, 07:33:28 PM »
I concede my argument on Daze.  It's useful but not as previously thought.  The humanoid thing is a downer.

Otherwise, how does a 5% increase in attack contribute to monster death when players at those levels only have a 5-30% chance of hitting the monsters anyways.  35% does not mean the PC's are murdering any more monsters than at 30%.  But if the monsters who are hitting at 5%-30% lose 10% of their chance to hit, that means less spell slots wasted after the battle for healing and maybe only one action in combat wasted.  Oh no, what is a cleric to do?

You talk about actions being god, if taking away actions is bad, why would taking away enemy actions be bad or even giving players more actions bad?  Command makes the enemy lose half his actions in combat and possibly draws an AoO.

Bless is seriously a bad idea for a 1st level Cleric.  I just creates a trap for new players.(I'm getting a +1 to hit so that must mean I'm gonna hit better, so the fighter moves up to attack more.  Uh oh, that means he is more likely to take some damage.  That means my one action turned into more healing actions.)
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Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #223 on: October 16, 2008, 07:39:15 PM »
I've read the entire thread and I didn't post anything to suggest people should prepare CLW. That's why I didn't like the tone you used after quoting my message.
You were stating the obvious.
And you were picturing Bless as the saving grace of all situations.

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Ubernoob

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Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #224 on: October 16, 2008, 07:57:12 PM »
I've read the entire thread and I didn't post anything to suggest people should prepare CLW. That's why I didn't like the tone you used after quoting my message.
You were stating the obvious.
And you were picturing Bless as the saving grace of all situations.
I was picturing it as a decent option that any idiot can see.  Cause fear is way fucking better.

I concede my argument on Daze.  It's useful but not as previously thought.  The humanoid thing is a downer.

Otherwise, how does a 5% increase in attack contribute to monster death when players at those levels only have a 5-30% chance of hitting the monsters anyways.  35% does not mean the PC's are murdering any more monsters than at 30%.  But if the monsters who are hitting at 5%-30% lose 10% of their chance to hit, that means less spell slots wasted after the battle for healing and maybe only one action in combat wasted.  Oh no, what is a cleric to do?
First off, how is everyone in the party getting an AC that high?  The only AC that matters is the lowest AC the monster can attack.  Since level 1 has very little in the way of lockdown that means pretty much everyone needs an AC that high.  How are you affording full plate or similar at level 1?  Light armor and dex ain't gunna cut it unless you're a dex base character in which case you're the least likely to be attacked in the first place.  Basically, your example is bullshit.
Quote from: fliprushman
You talk about actions being god, if taking away actions is bad, why would taking away enemy actions be bad or even giving players more actions bad?  Command makes the enemy lose half his actions in combat and possibly draws an AoO.
IF THEY FAIL their save they lose a single round.  If they succeed you've not only wasted a spell slot but an action.  Basically it is poker where you are the big blind and the opponent may or may not have better cards than you.  You break even at best for daze and command is worse than simply taking improved trip and walking up with a guisarne because of how saves and str scores are at level 1.
Quote from: fliprushman
Bless is seriously a bad idea for a 1st level Cleric.  I just creates a trap for new players.(I'm getting a +1 to hit so that must mean I'm gonna hit better, so the fighter moves up to attack more.  Uh oh, that means he is more likely to take some damage.  That means my one action turned into more healing actions.)
It doesn't cost actions.  Either you cast it before combat (1min duration) or you don't cast it at all and have the chance to turn it into CLW.

Bless doesn't cost actions.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2008, 08:36:30 PM by ubernoob »
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fliprushman

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Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #225 on: October 16, 2008, 08:24:50 PM »
I concede my argument on Daze.  It's useful but not as previously thought.  The humanoid thing is a downer.

Otherwise, how does a 5% increase in attack contribute to monster death when players at those levels only have a 5-30% chance of hitting the monsters anyways.  35% does not mean the PC's are murdering any more monsters than at 30%.  But if the monsters who are hitting at 5%-30% lose 10% of their chance to hit, that means less spell slots wasted after the battle for healing and maybe only one action in combat wasted.  Oh no, what is a cleric to do?
First off, how is everyone in the party getting an AC that high?  The only AC that matters is the lowest AC the monster can attack.  Since level 1 has very little in the way of lockdown that means pretty much everyone needs an AC that high.  How are you affording full plate or similar at level 1?  Light armor and dex ain't gunna cut it unless you're a dex base character in which case you're the least likely to be attacked in the first place.  Basically, your example is bullshit.


How is having an AC of 16 at first level BS?  That's just Scailmail and Heavy Shield, no Dex added in.  The wizard in the party has a good chance of having AC 15 or more. (Mage Armor(And it lasts for an hour) plus Dex Mod) Even light armor wearers are in the same boat. (Rogues will have same as the wizard)  Monsters at this level of play are lucky if they have a +3 to hit.  SO that means for a monster to hit the PC's AC of 16, he would have to roll between 13-20 which equates to a 40% chance of hitting that player and that wizard has a 45% chance of being hit.  Most of the stuff though has a bonus to hit under that which produces faily less chances of hitting(Big surprise there).  SO you are looking at most monsters the PC's facing falling into my curve I mentioned before.  With Doom(Which I guess would be a gamble like any spell at this Level(I guess that means wizards are not uber at earlier levels :P)) means the PC effectively doing better than that 5% chance to hit for a minute.  But you are right, Cause Fear is more effective than any spell because it takes the monster completely out of the fight like sleep and color spray do(Depending on the save of course ;)).
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Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #226 on: October 16, 2008, 08:31:16 PM »
Ubernoob, you don't always get to decide when the combat starts. At least in my games low level encounters are quite often started when the party was unprepared for the fight and in cases like that Bless is not that useful.
Oh no, I get to convert bless to CLW once combat is over to deal with the damage.  What will I do?

Bless is better than CLW to prepare.  Doesn't stop clerics from converting on the fly.
Where the fuck did I say you should prepare CLW? I said there are situations in which Bless is useless, because I didn't think your assessments of its usefulness were accurate.
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2252.msg69969#msg69969

Start there.
I never said anything about preparing CLW, either. I specifically said Faith Healing and Lesser Vigor. So yeah, it was a Straw Man. I'd rather prepare those than Bless, even in an all cleric party, because Bless is a POS that will rarely matter in a fight, and which you have to have a prep round to actually use because it certainly isn't worth an action in combat. Even if you do have a prep round, there are alot better spells, depending on the situation.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2008, 08:33:36 PM by PhaedrusXY »
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Ubernoob

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Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #227 on: October 16, 2008, 08:54:21 PM »
I concede my argument on Daze.  It's useful but not as previously thought.  The humanoid thing is a downer.

Otherwise, how does a 5% increase in attack contribute to monster death when players at those levels only have a 5-30% chance of hitting the monsters anyways.  35% does not mean the PC's are murdering any more monsters than at 30%.  But if the monsters who are hitting at 5%-30% lose 10% of their chance to hit, that means less spell slots wasted after the battle for healing and maybe only one action in combat wasted.  Oh no, what is a cleric to do?
First off, how is everyone in the party getting an AC that high?  The only AC that matters is the lowest AC the monster can attack.  Since level 1 has very little in the way of lockdown that means pretty much everyone needs an AC that high.  How are you affording full plate or similar at level 1?  Light armor and dex ain't gunna cut it unless you're a dex base character in which case you're the least likely to be attacked in the first place.  Basically, your example is bullshit.


How is having an AC of 16 at first level BS?  That's just Scailmail and Heavy Shield, no Dex added in.  The wizard in the party has a good chance of having AC 15 or more. (Mage Armor(And it lasts for an hour) plus Dex Mod) Even light armor wearers are in the same boat. (Rogues will have same as the wizard)  Monsters at this level of play are lucky if they have a +3 to hit.  SO that means for a monster to hit the PC's AC of 16, he would have to roll between 13-20 which equates to a 40% chance of hitting that player and that wizard has a 45% chance of being hit.  Most of the stuff though has a bonus to hit under that which produces faily less chances of hitting(Big surprise there).  SO you are looking at most monsters the PC's facing falling into my curve I mentioned before.  With Doom(Which I guess would be a gamble like any spell at this Level(I guess that means wizards are not uber at earlier levels :P)) means the PC effectively doing better than that 5% chance to hit for a minute.  But you arie right, Cause Fear is more effective than any spell because it takes the monster completely out of the fight like sleep and color spray do(Depending on the save of course ;)).
1) Why in good god are you using a shield if you aren't a caster cleric?  The fighter has something like 14 AC (1 dex 3 armor) and is getting attacked the most because he is dealing the most damage.  Let's look at some stuff level 1 parties might fight:
Ogre 16 AC +8 to hit, CR 3
Centaur 14 AC +7 to hit, CR 3
Kobolds 15 AC, +1 to hit (3 with flanking, I think there is a rule for surounding bonuses if you have four or more) and there are 8 of these bitches so they sure as hell are getting flanking as well as preventing casting with readied actions.  Frankly, they don't care about your AC because they are humanoid and probably using acid flasks anyways.
Gnoll AC 15 To hit +3 CR 1

So a moderately difficult encounters have around +5 to +8 to hit.  AC 16 is barely keeping pace.

Most have around 15 AC so both PCs and monsters are at about 60% to hit rate right now.  You -2 to hit on them basically isn't worth an action.
Ubernoob, you don't always get to decide when the combat starts. At least in my games low level encounters are quite often started when the party was unprepared for the fight and in cases like that Bless is not that useful.
Oh no, I get to convert bless to CLW once combat is over to deal with the damage.  What will I do?

Bless is better than CLW to prepare.  Doesn't stop clerics from converting on the fly.
Where the fuck did I say you should prepare CLW? I said there are situations in which Bless is useless, because I didn't think your assessments of its usefulness were accurate.
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2252.msg69969#msg69969

Start there.
I never said anything about preparing CLW, either. I specifically said Faith Healing and Lesser Vigor. So yeah, it was a Straw Man. I'd rather prepare those than Bless, even in an all cleric party, because Bless is a POS that will rarely matter in a fight, and which you have to have a prep round to actually use because it certainly isn't worth an action in combat. Even if you do have a prep round, there are alot better spells, depending on the situation.
And every single thing in my post was core stuff.  Did you miss the part where I was assuming guys fairly new to the game and not used to splat?

Bless is a good use of a spell.  Not cause fear, but sure as hell better than just about anything else core at that level because level one clerics don't have that many good options in core.
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fliprushman

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Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #228 on: October 16, 2008, 09:42:05 PM »
Quote from: ubernoob
1) Why in good god are you using a shield if you aren't a caster cleric?  The fighter has something like 14 AC (1 dex 3 armor) and is getting attacked the most because he is dealing the most damage.  Let's look at some stuff level 1 parties might fight:
Ogre 16 AC +8 to hit, CR 3
Centaur 14 AC +7 to hit, CR 3
Kobolds 15 AC, +1 to hit (3 with flanking, I think there is a rule for surounding bonuses if you have four or more) and there are 8 of these bitches so they sure as hell are getting flanking as well as preventing casting with readied actions.  Frankly, they don't care about your AC because they are humanoid and probably using acid flasks anyways.
Gnoll AC 15 To hit +3 CR 1

So a moderately difficult encounters have around +5 to +8 to hit.  AC 16 is barely keeping pace.

Most have around 15 AC so both PCs and monsters are at about 60% to hit rate right now.  You -2 to hit on them basically isn't worth an action.

I think that you need to check the chart in the DMG pg 49 and read the section on difficulty.  Nothing you listed is going to be moderately difficult for a group of four PC's.

With that being said, the PC's will most likely come across 4 Kobolds or a Gnoll being that they come up 50% of the time.  With a +2 flanking bonus(Because there is no Stacking thing and If the kobold's get luckly!) and that still falls into my numbers(Flask for those little buggers will be at +3 to hit as well though that effects Touch AC, that's an optimized thing, not as listed).  The Ogre and Centaur are outside of my numbers because it will only come up in 15% of all the encounters a PC will face(If doing the math against 13.3 encounters to level, that's once or twice in a players 1st level career).  There almost not worth mentioning because they are outliers and they fall into a range of monster of CR 2 to 4(The Very Difficult category) with varying Attack bonuses and AC.  If I would list them, most of the results of any analysis would be pointless(Like saying SoD's are the only choices you should make when many of the monsters in that range are immune).

Your fighter example needs a little more detail because I can't see why any fighter would want their AC to be as bad or worse than a Barbarian.  But I use the average AC for what I was citing because a)Most PCs would want a Higher AC and can achieve those numbers easily and b)monsters are similiar in AC.

I guess for next time, I should use the words "on average" to demonstrate my point because otherwise we could end up in the exceptions game and get nowhere fast.
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Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #229 on: October 16, 2008, 11:38:54 PM »
Quote from: ubernoob
1) Why in good god are you using a shield if you aren't a caster cleric?  The fighter has something like 14 AC (1 dex 3 armor) and is getting attacked the most because he is dealing the most damage.  Let's look at some stuff level 1 parties might fight:
Ogre 16 AC +8 to hit, CR 3
Centaur 14 AC +7 to hit, CR 3
Kobolds 15 AC, +1 to hit (3 with flanking, I think there is a rule for surounding bonuses if you have four or more) and there are 8 of these bitches so they sure as hell are getting flanking as well as preventing casting with readied actions.  Frankly, they don't care about your AC because they are humanoid and probably using acid flasks anyways.
Gnoll AC 15 To hit +3 CR 1

So a moderately difficult encounters have around +5 to +8 to hit.  AC 16 is barely keeping pace.

Most have around 15 AC so both PCs and monsters are at about 60% to hit rate right now.  You -2 to hit on them basically isn't worth an action.

I think that you need to check the chart in the DMG pg 49 and read the section on difficulty.  Nothing you listed is going to be moderately difficult for a group of four PC's.

With that being said, the PC's will most likely come across 4 Kobolds or a Gnoll being that they come up 50% of the time.  With a +2 flanking bonus(Because there is no Stacking thing and If the kobold's get luckly!) and that still falls into my numbers(Flask for those little buggers will be at +3 to hit as well though that effects Touch AC, that's an optimized thing, not as listed).  The Ogre and Centaur are outside of my numbers because it will only come up in 15% of all the encounters a PC will face(If doing the math against 13.3 encounters to level, that's once or twice in a players 1st level career).  There almost not worth mentioning because they are outliers and they fall into a range of monster of CR 2 to 4(The Very Difficult category) with varying Attack bonuses and AC.  If I would list them, most of the results of any analysis would be pointless(Like saying SoD's are the only choices you should make when many of the monsters in that range are immune).

Your fighter example needs a little more detail because I can't see why any fighter would want their AC to be as bad or worse than a Barbarian.  But I use the average AC for what I was citing because a)Most PCs would want a Higher AC and can achieve those numbers easily and b)monsters are similiar in AC.

I guess for next time, I should use the words "on average" to demonstrate my point because otherwise we could end up in the exceptions game and get nowhere fast.
Any CR under 5 is cakewalk difficulty.  That is, you are fighting something with less CR than your party at level 1.  Those encounters literally don't matter because you are expected to breeze through them because they aren't a level appropriate challenge.

If you're fighting anything with an EL below the EL of your party you should win 100% of the time even without optimization.  End of discussion.
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fliprushman

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Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #230 on: October 17, 2008, 01:08:56 AM »
I guess you have something to read up on.  What I'm talking about is completely different from what your talking about.  When we are on the same page, I'll pick up this discussion again.
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Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #231 on: October 17, 2008, 01:15:44 AM »
I guess you have something to read up on.  What I'm talking about is completely different from what your talking about.  When we are on the same page, I'll pick up this discussion again.
What I'm talking about is that a party of 4 PCs is an EL equal to 4+party level.  Thus, they have an absolute advantage over anything that isn't an EL party level+4 or more.  If you have an absolute advantage you are expected to win regardless of how poorly you play.  EL=average party level isn't the level of lethality where the tiers matter.  If you fight things under the EL of your party anything tier 5 or up WILL win every single time.
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fliprushman

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Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #232 on: October 17, 2008, 02:18:00 AM »
Ok, so what you are talking about is that the Tier system only works if the PC's are fighting something overpowering all the time while the rest of the "Average" players are doing something that is Tier 5ish.  What does that accomplish if the Tier system is meant only for gamers that play "hardcore*"?

*used because the lack of a better word.
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Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #233 on: October 17, 2008, 02:34:03 AM »
Ok, so what you are talking about is that the Tier system only works if the PC's are fighting something overpowering all the time while the rest of the "Average" players are doing something that is Tier 5ish.  What does that accomplish if the Tier system is meant only for gamers that play "hardcore*"?

*used because the lack of a better word.
EL = party EL still gives the party an edge:
1) NPC wealth doesn't lower the CR.
2) PCs are built with higher PB typically than MM creatures or NPCs have
3) Players have more time to craft their characters than the DM does thus leading to higher optimization 100% of the time.
4) Classed creatures are as a rule stronger than equal CR MM monsters(most of the time; outsiders and dragons are the exceptions because dragons are under CRed and outsiders tend to be better than an equal CR cleric or melee class because of the outsider HD and stats or spellcasting).

Remember how the big thing I put up earlier about how dying sucks?  Well, EL lower than the party's EL doesn't really risk PC death.  It's only when people start being competent and the DM starts ramping up CRs that death becomes an issue.

Basically, the PCs are given the overwhelming edge if you use CR=party level.  It's only as that edge gets pulled back to something minor (EL=party EL) that there is any real risk of PC death.
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Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #234 on: October 17, 2008, 03:15:02 AM »
So basically it is better to let the fighter die and bring in another cleric, a druid, or a dragon shaman to heal.  That's the logical conclusion to what you are saying.

I've thought about this a bit (while ignoring the essays) and realized that this would actually be a good way to

1. Discover which class(es) you like the most
2. Work out team strategies and roles that fit you well. e.g., the Tactical Dude plays AOE Controller, while Mrs. RP plays Bard
3. Figure out the best classes (probably once more leaning once again to true spellcasters, just out of survivability)

For a while it would be like the Gantz comic, with people dying left and right, but eventually you would fall in to a race/class combo wherein you don't die.

The true test of effectiveness of this concept would be the requirement of a fair and just DM that throws a diverse number of situations at you.

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Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #235 on: October 17, 2008, 03:20:37 AM »
Problem is finding something where "I can do what the Fighter does only better" isn't an option.

Finding things immune to "magic" is relatively easy. Finding things immune to I-get-a-Strength-boost-and-full-BAB-with-this-spell is harder.
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Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #236 on: October 17, 2008, 03:32:34 AM »
Problem is finding something where "I can do what the Fighter does only better" isn't an option.

Finding things immune to "magic" is relatively easy. Finding things immune to I-get-a-Strength-boost-and-full-BAB-with-this-spell is harder.
Actually, this is flat out wrong.  Casters either get:
1) Conjurations that ignore immunity to magic (black tentacles and solid fog come to mind, but entangle is good too)
2) The ability to beat things up with massive str and either full bab or just not caring (druid or cleric)

On the other hand, know what hoses nonmagical fighters (in core at least)?
1) Being bigger to the point that you can't get inside their reach to hit them (there are quite a few of these)
2) Flying at a level when you can't (not too common, but there are a few)
3) Teleport at will and long range SLAs (any outsider)
4) Beating you in melee (any dragon)
5) Ability to flat out ignore you (spectre)
6) Ability to outmaneuver you (huge air elemental)
7) Ability to hide from you while forcing you to save or lose every round (pixie)

That's just off the top of my head.
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Elennsar

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Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #237 on: October 17, 2008, 03:34:22 AM »
I should have made that clearer. Finding things immune to fireball or the like is relatively easy. Finding things immune to "I use magic to create something to wreak havoc" is harder.

Can't argue at all with the list of ways that the nonmagical get screwed over. Basically, if you're not a full caster, to some extent, you fail. Both relative to full casters and encounters at high levels.
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Ubernoob

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Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #238 on: October 17, 2008, 03:36:35 AM »
I should have made that clearer. Finding things immune to fireball or the like is relatively easy. Finding things immune to "I use magic to create something to wreak havoc" is harder.

Can't argue at all with the list of ways that the nonmagical get screwed over. Basically, if you're not a full caster, to some extent, you fail. Both relative to full casters and encounters at high levels.
So basically you agree with my assessment?  I'm not fully clear on if you are agreeing, or simply clarifying that fireball blows.
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Re: Uber's Tiers
« Reply #239 on: October 17, 2008, 03:39:54 AM »
Clarifying and agreeing, ja. There are things that can be thwarted by casters, but smart casters will ignore this so badly that saying "but constructs are immune to magic!" means nothing.
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