Uber's Tiers

[Ubernoob]

[Off-topic]
[spoiler]

Rules mastery has NOTHING to do with Fu.

If you say so. That was part of the original intent, and it sometimes works that way.

The one thing I'll ask though is that people give and take points based on Gameology.  This isn't just karma or "cookies"- these points are for Gameology.  So for example, there are awesome people who may come in here just to chat and hang out.  That's cool and I welcome them with open arms.  That however isn't really gameology so they shouldn't be Mr. or Ms. Popular.  A cool avatar isn't, in my eyes, reason to award Gameology points. And neither is saying "Waa!  My Fu is too low!"  Please don't reward that.

People who offer advice, talk about games, talk about the show, help you out, get you into something, open your eyes to a new idea-- they are worthy of the Fu.

(I did say "mastery", not knowledge. Helping someone with a build can lead to a +Fu.)

I'll try to dig up the link if you want, but Meg explicitly stated in a thread later that people should not give fu based on rules fu.

Also, JaronK has more than triple the fu of me and has repeatedly shown he doesn't understand the game or game design as well as I do.

*cough*

Fuck, Kaelik is completely schooling JaronK on rules knowledge and he has negative fu.

*cough*[/spoiler]

1) You can roleplay just fine regardless of what your sheet says out of combat.

Yes but I'm talking about mechanics and not RP. We disagree about this - fine.

]
JaronK had trouble telling the difference between RP and world changing.

3) The people that need the tiers will probably not have a DM rules knowledgable enough (or else they would just let the DM speak) to design encounters that challenge a wizard and don't kill a bard.  The big issue is letting new players play the game without the mechanics exploding and making everyone unhappy.

I've already stated it, but I find it ironical that the people who need the tiers are the ones who won't fit into them. Healbot clerics and their ilk - yes, they can change spells but they won't.
Nonetheless, they are useful. So thanks to JaronK for making them and to you for proposing a different vision.

Except that they will be good aligned and prepare whatever looks fun.  They are BOUNDA to prepare a few good spells on accident.

Most skill DCs are fixed.  Anyone can buy skill boosting equipment.  If it is an opposed roll the attribute that it is based on matters more than the difference between half and full ranks typically.  As for spells that shape the world, right in the PHB is listed costs for buying spells.

A difference between half and full rank is pretty big. Many skill boosting items are custom and not always available ; it is often among the last items on a shopping list (below armor/weapons/ability enhancers/...).

It's a 12 point difference at level 20.  +10 skill boosting items are pretty damn core.  So, yeah.  If you want to make a specific skill check you'll make it.

Class skills matter a lot less than people make them out to matter.

In your games.
Heh, I was right - different playstyles.

Anyway, I realize I'm not bringing much to this thread anymore so I'll bow out.

More like you aren't accounting for equipment and random elements.

[awaken DM golem]

... Fuckability ...

Commoner ... worst, but will "work" for cheap

Warrior ........... opens up armor , weapons , and high BAB stuff  {... Exotic: Whips , Chainmail Bikini ...}
Aristocrat ....... better save, more moolah to start , more skills  {... I just bought this exquisite Corset, do you "like" it ? ...}
(maybe aristo is better)

Expert .............  Milkmaid 2 gets all those skill synergies, including Bluff and Dick-plow-macy

Adept ..............  If you kiss me (and I cast this magic spell) , you won't have to drink Fire Wine , to enjoy my "charms"

What does Uber and Jaronk say about a Tier 4 girl  ??

[AndyJames]

What does Uber and Jaronk say about a Tier 4 girl  ??

Wouldn't that be a gimped girl? I thought females are focused and extremely good at "confuse the males" role, which means they are at least Tier 3, if not Tier 2...

[Sunic_Flames]

Chicks are Tier 0. Discuss.

[Ubernoob]

Girls are tier 2.  They have a few extremely potent tricks, are damn hard to fuck (the kind I like best at least, gotta love challenges), and can generally solo mobs (drunken frat boys) with no fear of getting beaten.

[Brainpiercing]

Ok, so how about just agreeing that different play-styles and levels of knowledge make different tiers?

I've BUILT druids who were so inept that they were positively sad. I've done the same with clerics. So basically... you can mess up any class. However, different classes are harder or easier to turn into something good.
So how about the third type of tiers:

How hard classes are to optimise, and what the result of medium-level optimisation can be. That means, pick only good feats and skills, pick good spells, but no combos that are less than direct-effect. So DMM, for instance, works, but a combo that requires combining three sucky feats into one uber-ability does not. Now the result of this are characters of medium level of power, modified mostly by the base abilities of the classes. How do the tiers look now?

[Tshern]

You can still change your spell choices the next day. Or your feats for that matter...

[Sunic_Flames]

Girls are tier 2.  They have a few extremely potent tricks, are damn hard to fuck (the kind I like best at least, gotta love challenges), and can generally solo mobs (drunken frat boys) with no fear of getting beaten.

But what CR are those enemies?

[AndyJames]

Drunk frat boys? 1/2...

[Ubernoob]

Ok, so how about just agreeing that different play-styles and levels of knowledge make different tiers?

I've BUILT druids who were so inept that they were positively sad. I've done the same with clerics. So basically... you can mess up any class. However, different classes are harder or easier to turn into something good.
So how about the third type of tiers:

How hard classes are to optimise, and what the result of medium-level optimisation can be. That means, pick only good feats and skills, pick good spells, but no combos that are less than direct-effect. So DMM, for instance, works, but a combo that requires combining three sucky feats into one uber-ability does not. Now the result of this are characters of medium level of power, modified mostly by the base abilities of the classes. How do the tiers look now?

And you're still a fucking druid.  Give a druid 16 wis at start, take nothing but druid levels and you are guaranteed to be able to contribute better than a PW or bard.  Toss on natural spell if you want to rub it in.

[Sunic_Flames]

Drunk frat boys? 1/2...

So it doesn't prove anything.

[AndyJames]

So it doesn't prove anything.

No. No it doesn't. Overcoming the drunken frat boys encounter is like saying that you always hit the fishies in the barrel from 1 foot away. With a shotgun.

[dark_samuari]

Also, for somebody new you seem to spewing off a lot of steam. How about you cool down a little bit.

And for somebody old who isn't well known enough to have several postulates/tier systems/fallacies named after themself you sure are annoying. I'm not "new" just because I don't play around in your special favorite playing ground. And no, I won't accept your advice, perhaps if you feel like giving advice to a child you should go find one instead of treating every person you disagree with as one.

There is nothing wrong with being frustrated with people who call you a stupid liar. Or at stupid people.

I'm going to go ahead and say you are in every way new. This is a special favorite playing ground, come to terms with it. I've been part of it for near five years, you've got two days under your belt. Your new. And to your mentioning of "several postulates/tier systems/fallacies" I would hope you don't think that's the only way to achieve popularity within a community such as this one. I've had prominent members request advice from me and on occasion I've discussed real life issues with Uber and Cyrocloud. So I'll go out and say I am part of this community even if I don't feel the need to post every hour for every day. It's the quality your bring, not the quantity.     

I'm always impressed by people who have more negative Fu than posts.

I generally make a habit of losing popularity contests.

You ever wonder why?

[Ubernoob]

I'm going to go ahead and say you are in every way new. This is a special favorite playing ground, come to terms with it. I've been part of it for near five years, you've got two days under your belt. Your new. And to your mentioning of "several postulates/tier systems/fallacies" I would hope you don't think that's the only way to achieve popularity within a community such as this one. I've had prominent members request advice from me and on occasion I've discussed real life issues with Uber and Cyrocloud. So I'll go out and say I am part of this community even if I don't feel the need to post every hour for every day. It's the quality your bring, not the quantity.     

1) Five years?  You've been around 339 since 3.5 came out?  I swear I remember teaching you crap and I only got into D&D like two and a half years ago.
2) When did I discuss "real life issues" with you?  As far as I remember I've never came to you for advice.  In fact, there are exactly two people on this forum I've ever come to for advice.  I've had idle chatter with quite a few, but there are only two I've ever come to for advice specifically.
3) Shouldn't the quality not quantity be geared at JaronK?

I generally make a habit of losing popularity contests.

You ever wonder why?

Some people aren't afraid to hurt feelings by being honest?

[Kaelik]

I'm going to go ahead and say you are in every way new. This is a special favorite playing ground, come to terms with it. I've been part of it for near five years, you've got two days under your belt. Your new.

You've been at BG for five years? Really? I only found out this place existed after the mass Char Op exodus, anyone who has been a member of BG for five years has lost all claim to BG being a special playground, since five years ago it probably had two members.

I've had an account on this particular forum for 2 days. I've also been a member of the gaming den for something like 5 years, and I only found that from gitp, which I found from Char Op, which I found from D&D Adventures. So I really don't think five years online about D&D is anything special.

And to your mentioning of "several postulates/tier systems/fallacies" I would hope you don't think that's the only way to achieve popularity within a community such as this one. I've had prominent members request advice from me and on occasion I've discussed real life issues with Uber and Cyrocloud. So I'll go out and say I am part of this community even if I don't feel the need to post every hour for every day. It's the quality your bring, not the quantity.

1) No I don't think that's the only way to be important. My point is simply that I know why Treantmonk thinks he's better then me, I know why JaronK thinks he's better then me, I know why TLN thinks he's better then me. I have no idea what the source of your condescension is. What is the reason that you ignore what I say in favor of critiquing me on how I say it?

You ever wonder why?

No I don't. I know exactly why. People don't like people who tell them they are wrong, especially when the person telling them that is correct, and I personally only involve myself when I think someone needs correcting.

That is why I address the issue of Bards being good fun PC classes because they are powerful in an army setting. It is wrong. That is why I have not posted anything about Factotums, because I think both posters are generally correct about Factotums and the only thing that separates them is whether they consider FoI for every feat to be general or obscure (personally  think it's general and that Factotums should be bumped up a tier, but I also disagree with using Polymorph spells as assumed spells, and strongly disagree with the idea of gaining Sorcerer or Cleric casting by using them.)

Incidentally, if Game Mastery were in any way involved, JaronK needs some negatives for thinking that a Factotum can ever become a Solar in a way that a Rogue couldn't, since they never get access to 9th level spells, and all the polymorphs up to level 8 have a 15HD cap.

And he even explicitly mentioned switching next round which means Shapechange, which they don't ever get outside of UMD.

[dark_samuari]

I'm going to go ahead and say you are in every way new. This is a special favorite playing ground, come to terms with it. I've been part of it for near five years, you've got two days under your belt. Your new. And to your mentioning of "several postulates/tier systems/fallacies" I would hope you don't think that's the only way to achieve popularity within a community such as this one. I've had prominent members request advice from me and on occasion I've discussed real life issues with Uber and Cyrocloud. So I'll go out and say I am part of this community even if I don't feel the need to post every hour for every day. It's the quality your bring, not the quantity.     

1) Five years?  You've been around 339 since 3.5 came out?  I swear I remember teaching you crap and I only got into D&D like two and a half years ago.
2) When did I discuss "real life issues" with you?  As far as I remember I've never came to you for advice.
3) Shouldn't the quality not quantity be geared at JaronK?

1.)I've always been in the process of learning, I'd hope you as well . Seeing as I didn't have the funds to purchase even the basic 3.5 core books I instead taught myself by daily readings of the boards.
2.) This arguments stem from the vagueness of issues. We've discussed things that are not in any way related to DnD and more related to real life "stuff."
3.) JaronK has demonstrated his importance to the community through is helpful actions to questions and needed advice on the boards for a long time.

I generally make a habit of losing popularity contests.

You ever wonder why?

Some people aren't afraid to hurt feelings by being honest?

Presentation is the greatest aspect here.

I'm going to go ahead and say you are in every way new. This is a special favorite playing ground, come to terms with it. I've been part of it for near five years, you've got two days under your belt. Your new.

You've been at BG for five years? Really? I only found out this place existed after the mass Char Op exodus, anyone who has been a member of BG for five years has lost all claim to BG being a special playground, since five years ago it probably had two members.

I've had an account on this particular forum for 2 days. I've also been a member of the gaming den for something like 5 years, and I only found that from gitp, which I found from Char Op, which I found from D&D Adventures. So I really don't think five years online about D&D is anything special.

A large part of the community here is from the old 339 boards, so that is what I was reference with the five years indicator. I happen to think visiting one discussion board every day for five years is special, this may be something that separates us.

And to your mentioning of "several postulates/tier systems/fallacies" I would hope you don't think that's the only way to achieve popularity within a community such as this one. I've had prominent members request advice from me and on occasion I've discussed real life issues with Uber and Cyrocloud. So I'll go out and say I am part of this community even if I don't feel the need to post every hour for every day. It's the quality your bring, not the quantity.

1) No I don't think that's the only way to be important. My point is simply that I know why Treantmonk thinks he's better then me, I know why JaronK thinks he's better then me, I know why TLN thinks he's better then me. I have no idea what the source of your condescension is. What is the reason that you ignore what I say in favor of critiquing me on how I say it?

I don't think I am better then you, I think I am more connected to this community. And with the critique, I believe highly in the presentation of one's ideas and thoughts. I disagreed with how you had presented yours through out this incident (the attack on JaronK's sig for example). So I'm sorry if I offended you at all but I'm not sorry for what I have said.

You ever wonder why?

No I don't. I know exactly why. People don't like people who tell them they are wrong, especially when the person telling them that is correct, and I personally only involve myself when I think someone needs correcting.

I tell people they are wrong every day, it's generally accepted because of the way I present it. Pure, savage, brutal truth should always be a last option during a discussion.

[JaronK]

Um, I never said a Factotum could become a Solar, Kaelik.  What the hell are you talking about?  Nor did I ever say anything about Shapechange, or switching forms round by round with Alter Self.  In fact, I mostly used actual examples of how I've seen Factotums in play, and they were level 4 and level 8... nowhere near Shapechange levels.

Look, I know you're generally full of it (you've certainly never dealt with large scale combat in D&D, and it shows), but please don't actively lie about me, okay?

JaronK

[Elennsar]

Yeah, what he said. Its not okay to actively lie about someone, but it is very okay to mangle their words totally and utterly to mean something directly contrary to what they actually flat out said.

You should do more of that. Jaron can tell you how that's somehow different and better.

More to the point...does whether or not a bard can contribute to mass combat, which is not a standard part of the game, really justify whether or not it should be a higher tier by the tier system Uber is using?

[Ubernoob]

all the polymorphs up to level 8 have a 15HD cap.

Technically there is a very hard to find (as in it's not even listed in the index of the book) polymorph in dracomonicon that is level 5 and caps at 20 HD, but you still need to cheat your way into being an outsider for that stuff to work (fiendform is almost as hard to notice in spell compendium because the only notable thing about the spell is changing your type to get polymorph abuse).

2.) This arguments stem from the vagueness of issues. We've discussed things that are not in any way related to DnD and more related to real life "stuff."

I realized I wasn't clear and just edited.  I sort of know you from the boards and that means I'm prone to idle chatter.  As for getting advice, I've gotten that from Meg and Sinister.  Nobody else here has shown enough social finesse to really make me want to get advice about them.

3.) JaronK has demonstrated his importance to the community through is helpful actions to questions and needed advice on the boards for a long time.

Frankly, a lot of JaronK's advice is either bad or just not suited to anything outside of TO.

Presentation is the greatest aspect here.

Actually, Meg explicitly allows us to be more blunt here than at 339.  Fuck, she mentioned the gaming den as a model a while back.  Placing presentation over substance leads to the Paizo effect, which is bullshit.

I tell people they are wrong every day, it's generally accepted because of the way I present it. Pure, savage, brutal truth should always be a last option during a discussion.

Why?  Really.  It's the quickest way to cut out the chaff.  If you dance around the issue it takes triple the posts to get the point.

Look, I know you're generally full of it (you've certainly never dealt with large scale combat in D&D, and it shows), but please don't actively lie about me, okay?

Huh?

Yeah, what he said.

This statement leaves me speechless.  What is this, Paizo?

Its not okay to actively lie about someone, but it is very okay to mangle their words totally and utterly to mean something directly contrary to what they actually flat out said.

You should do more of that. Jaron can tell you how that's somehow different and better.

More to the point...does whether or not a bard can contribute to mass combat, which is not a standard part of the game, really justify whether or not it should be a higher tier by the tier system Uber is using?

This is a rare moment of clarity for Elennsar.

[Elennsar]

Sarcasm, even obvious* sarcasm, fails on the internet.

[spoiler] * If there's such a thing as obvious sarcasm, it is only possible with tone of voice. Or emoticons. [spoiler]

If Jaron thinks it is okay to totally disregard what someone actually said to mangle it into it-was-implied-even-though-you-specifically-stated-otherwise, then Jaron should find it okay for people to outright lie about him, if that ever comes up, because it is exactly as dishonest.

One is just slightly subtler.