Reducing spellcasters to 6th-level spells?

[Prime32]

If wizards and sorcerers had a progression like this, would they be Tier 3?

1   Cantrips at will, 1st-level spells
2   -
3   -
4   2nd-level spells
5   -
6   -
7   -
8   3rd-level spells
9   -
10   -
11   -
12   4th-level spells
13   -
14   -
15   -
16   5th-level spells
17   -
18   -
19   -
20   6th-level spells

[Elennsar]

Its possible. The problem is not just spell power, its the fact magic can do anything, and wizards/clerics/druids can abuse that mercilessly (sorcerers at least have only a few spells known.)

[InnaBinder]

Depends on whether you also remove/nerf the Alter Self line and disallow things like Finger Darts.

[RobbyPants]

It seems to me that they'd just want to spam their abusive tricks even more to make up for their slower progression.  I'd think that fixing the abusive tricks might be a better fix.  Although, your approach is certainly less work.

[woodenbandman]

It's not the spell levels, it's just that WotC keeps printing so many BROKEN spells, like Shapechange, Timestop, Epic Spellcasting in general, True Mind Switch, Prismatic Sphere, any form of summoning spell at all, etc, that makes the wizard class broken. And a Bard has 6th level spells, and they're tier 3, so a wizard probably would not be tier 3 with only 6th level spells.

The problem's not with the class, it's with the spells. That and Shadowcraft mage.

[veekie]

It's not the spell levels, it's just that WotC keeps printing so many BROKEN spells, like Shapechange, Timestop, Epic Spellcasting in general, True Mind Switch, Prismatic Sphere, any form of summoning spell at all, etc, that makes the wizard class broken. And a Bard has 6th level spells, and they're tier 3, so a wizard probably would not be tier 3 with only 6th level spells.

The problem's not with the class, it's with the spells. That and Shadowcraft mage.

+1

[JaronK]

Well, SCM is just one broken PrC... it's not like Dweomerkeeper is much better!

But yeah, 6th level wouldn't do it.  That still leaves Planar Binding (endless wishes!), Polymorph (yehaw!), Alter Self (dear god that's insane for a 2nd level spell) and a variety of other nasty ones in there.  They'd be less powerful, but still pretty incredible.  So, it's a step in the right direction, but still they're nasty as all heck.

JaronK

[SiggyDevil]

It's not the spell levels, it's just that WotC keeps printing so many BROKEN spells, like Shapechange, Timestop, Epic Spellcasting in general, True Mind Switch, Prismatic Sphere, any form of summoning spell at all, etc, that makes the wizard class broken. And a Bard has 6th level spells, and they're tier 3, so a wizard probably would not be tier 3 with only 6th level spells.

The problem's not with the class, it's with the spells. That and Shadowcraft mage.

Even in Core it's broken. I think they really did mean it to be.

One could indeed cut out much of the spell lists but there are always other gamers BAWWWING about the loss!

[RobbyPants]

That's the way it works, of course.  If you actually give fighters nice things, all the players who play fighters will love you for it.  If you take away the top three levels of spells, all the players who play casters will hate you for it.

This has got me thinking though.  I wonder how much it would help to delay a prepared casters spells by one level, similar to a sontaneous caster?  It would slow things down just a bit, but I don't think it's a real game changer.  It doesn't pull them down an entire tier or anything.  Really, all it does is make you wish you weren't delayed on your odd levels, and it makes dipping for gishes a bit harder.  Now you have to hit CL 18 to get 9th level spells.

[woodenbandman]

I still think that the only balancing factor is a careful GM to give the PHB and Spell Compendiums a once-over and remove a few spells. My personal hit-list includes the polymorph line ('cuz wild shape is broken enough as it is. Might make MoMF a viable option.), Prismatic Sphere, Time Stop, perhaps Celerity, Black Blade of Disaster (nasty free action disintegrate every round), summoning in its entirety, and there you go. You're pretty much balanced. Of course there's a few that I don't know about that I'd kick myself for missing, but whatever.

[Ubernoob]

Don't change the progression at all.  Just make the game end at level 6.  That keeps the balance pretty good (no polymorph or divine power, but you do get haste and BAB 6).

[Shadowhunter]

Or play E6, why end the fun early?

I haven't tested it yet, but I adore the concept.
Absolutely adore it.

But no, I don't think stopping at 6th level spells is the right way to go.
Combing through the books and splats and removing the difficult ones would make more of an impact.
Or just find players that don't abuse the shit out of it...

[JaronK]

Don't change the progression at all.  Just make the game end at level 6.  That keeps the balance pretty good (no polymorph or divine power, but you do get haste and BAB 6).

Explosive Runes, Glitterdust, Alter Self!  Wheeee!  Personally, I'm a fan of playing as an outsider and Alter Selfing into a Dwarf Ancestor (+18 Natural AC!), then spamming Glitterdust.  At level 6, nothing can deal with that.

Casters aren't weak at low levels.  Not a bit of it.

JaronK

[SiggyDevil]

As I've mentioned in another thread the power of spellcasters comes entirely from the spells they know.

Fix the spells, fixed the class.

With enough tweaking of spell effects and the Spell Levels in which they are assigned, one might not even need to cut down

The Versumage class I made was intended to work within D&D rules as-is, much like Prime's chart here, without adjustments to spell effects.
Obviously a simpler option, but altering spell effects would give much more satisfaction in play and ensure encounter balance far better.