Author Topic: Help making an Evil Crusader?  (Read 3997 times)

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VennDygrem

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Help making an Evil Crusader?
« on: October 10, 2008, 09:04:36 PM »
Ok, so here's my situation. I'm currently preparing for Stratovarius's play-by-post game, set in his Arhosa setting, and I'm looking for some insight in trying to pin down a solid build. I want to come out of this with a good focus on martial adept levels contributing toward Devoted Spirit maneuvers, as I like the concept of healing others by hitting my enemies, etc. (I initially thought of altering the Duskblade into a Divine character that could use healing spells immediately after a strike, at a range, instead of channeling spells through the strike, but found that Devoted Spirit does essentially the same thing).

It seems likely that the build is going to focus heavily on Crusader, and thus the likely extension of that is going for a lockdown build (I've been reading through the ToB for Dummies thread at the Wizards forums, and several lockdown threads, but the options are dizzying). Alternatively, I know that the Sublime Way Variant Ranger can swap out access to one of its disciplines for Devoted Spirit as well.

Some might suggest just sticking with something like cleric to just have a devoted healer, but I like the flavor and mechanics of Devoted Spirit maneuvers, and the crusader seems like the best bet in this situation.

As mentioned in the title, this is for an evil-aligned party, so I'm looking for other ways to build on that with a particularly evil tank. Ways to involve poison, fear, vile or abyssal heritor feats, etc. are all encouraged.

I'm open to various races, though my initial ideas involved Changeling or Half-Drow, in order to avoid LA as much as possible, and getting in a naturally manipulative race. (Was considering some Changeling Racial Emulation cheese for qualifying for feats/PrC's, but that ended up being too MAD and feat-starved)

Rules as stated are: ECL is 4, Any race/class, content from all sources welcome (including third party and homebrew content).
32 Point Buy, 1 Flaw, no bloodlines, 1 trait, No LA buyoff, no templates above LA +1. No UA races or classes.
Leadership is delayed until around level 9-12, and is thus generally discouraged.
Optimization level: 2-3 (moderate optimization is the key - No cheesing off the DM!).
No idea how long the game will last, but I'm going to assume at least to 20 simply for build purposes.

So, this does not have to be Uber. It has to be pretty good at what it does, and suitable for other functionality as well.

I'm looking for suggestions, and will appreciate any insight you can offer! Thanks! :)
« Last Edit: October 11, 2008, 02:08:29 AM by VennDygrem »

Akalsaris

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Re: Help making an Evil Crusader?
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2008, 07:30:11 AM »
Heh, yeah, the lockdown builds make my head spin at times.  But until you try a spiked chain with 20ft reach and improved trip/combat reflexes, you never realize what you've been missing all this time :)

If you're not fully comfortable with hitting your enemies for healing (especially if your DM rules that you can't deal subdual damage to heal your allies after a fight), then maybe a Ruby Knight Vindicator with a focus on martial maneuvers would be good.  A Sublime Ranger 3/Cleric 1 followed by Ranger +2/RKV 1-10/Ranger+4 probably would be a solid healer.  The extra level of ranger before RKV is so your first stance from RKV would be Thicket of Blades.

Swearing your soul to an elder evil opens up free vile feats from a limited list at 1st/5th/10th/etc if your DM will allow it (it sounds like he won't though). 

VennDygrem

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Re: Help making an Evil Crusader?
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2008, 07:55:02 AM »
Heh, yeah, the lockdown builds make my head spin at times.  But until you try a spiked chain with 20ft reach and improved trip/combat reflexes, you never realize what you've been missing all this time :)

If you're not fully comfortable with hitting your enemies for healing (especially if your DM rules that you can't deal subdual damage to heal your allies after a fight), then maybe a Ruby Knight Vindicator with a focus on martial maneuvers would be good.  A Sublime Ranger 3/Cleric 1 followed by Ranger +2/RKV 1-10/Ranger+4 probably would be a solid healer.  The extra level of ranger before RKV is so your first stance from RKV would be Thicket of Blades.

Swearing your soul to an elder evil opens up free vile feats from a limited list at 1st/5th/10th/etc if your DM will allow it (it sounds like he won't though). 

Actually, what I said was "I like the concept of healing others by hitting my enemies, etc.", not the opposite. :)

So you think going with the SWV Ranger would be better than Crusader? Any particular reason why? Lockdown doesn't seem well-suited to mobility or hiding, meaning its recovery method is pretty useless in general combat for this sort of build (unless I took the Dark template and gained Hide in Plain Sight).


Also, for thematic reasons, I've been leaning toward going with a Lolth-Touched Half-Drow. Maybe I ought to go with an Eternal Blade-oriented build in that case. Not that RKV isn't good also. However, it limits my deity choice to Wee Jas.

There are actually two groups I'm between joining, both evil: One is a Cult of the Damned, which would be undead-army focused eventually (and would probably make more use of the RKV), and the other is a group of bandits/brigands/what-have-you, looking to pillage and conquer.

Strato's pretty open to things, but we don't want to have anything game-breaking. Moderate optimization is the goal. However, I don't think Elder Evils quite fits in this particular campaign. I'll have to check it out for future characters though, so thanks. :)
« Last Edit: October 11, 2008, 07:58:27 AM by VennDygrem »

Omen of Peace

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Re: Help making an Evil Crusader?
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2008, 11:48:47 AM »
If you really need the feats, go for SW Ranger. Otherwise, the synergy between class features & maneuvers and the recovery method makes Crusader better IMO. (Even in that case, dipping any other martial class later on will get you some nice maneuvers for utility/shoring up weaknesses/complementing your existing maneuvers.)

Feats
1 Combat Reflexes (flaw), EWP: Spiked Chain
3 Standstill

If you don't mind using armor spikes (I dislike them - they'll deal piddly damage), you could go for Power Attack or Stone Power or Extra Granted Maneuver instead of EWP.

The main problem with straight Crusader is that you get Thicket of Blades late - but on the other hand you're already a tank when you start at level 4.

I'd go for Iron Guard's Glare and Martial Spirit for stances (IGG as main, switch to MS after 1 or 2 rounds).
Vanguard Strike, Crusader's Strike, Stone Bones, Leading the Attack, Mountain Hammer, Battle Leader's Charge as maneuvers (for instance).
Defensive Rebuke at next level, then Revitalizing Strike.
The Malazan Book of the Fallen, Steven Erikson

VennDygrem

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Re: Help making an Evil Crusader?
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2008, 05:00:26 PM »
If you really need the feats, go for SW Ranger. Otherwise, the synergy between class features & maneuvers and the recovery method makes Crusader better IMO. (Even in that case, dipping any other martial class later on will get you some nice maneuvers for utility/shoring up weaknesses/complementing your existing maneuvers.)

Feats
1 Combat Reflexes (flaw), EWP: Spiked Chain
3 Standstill

If you don't mind using armor spikes (I dislike them - they'll deal piddly damage), you could go for Power Attack or Stone Power or Extra Granted Maneuver instead of EWP.

The main problem with straight Crusader is that you get Thicket of Blades late - but on the other hand you're already a tank when you start at level 4.

I'd go for Iron Guard's Glare and Martial Spirit for stances (IGG as main, switch to MS after 1 or 2 rounds).
Vanguard Strike, Crusader's Strike, Stone Bones, Leading the Attack, Mountain Hammer, Battle Leader's Charge as maneuvers (for instance).
Defensive Rebuke at next level, then Revitalizing Strike.

So what if I went with Crusader 1/Warblade(or SWVRanger) 3/Crusader x/etc. ? That way I'd get Thicket of Blades at level 5, and can pad levels 2-4 with other useful maneuvers. It would delay my Crusader class features, but it could be worth it.
It'll still be a couple levels before I get Thicket of Blades, but far sooner than just straight Crusader levels.

Damage isn't unimportant, but we do have a primary damage-dealer in the group. Now to figure out ways to add to the vicious, corrupt side of the character. It seems the only way to get a natural poison is to waste two feats in any combo of feats, so that's a pretty big investiture. And Poison Use requires levels in some other unnecessary class, so that's right out. So I'll probably end up finding some other evil abilities/items.
---

Ooh, I can't wait until I can get hold of 7000gp. I found really nifty item to help with the whole evil schtick that fits perfectly with the character.  :evillaugh
« Last Edit: October 11, 2008, 08:45:14 PM by VennDygrem »

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Help making an Evil Crusader?
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2008, 02:14:23 AM »
Try and convince Strato to allow Elder Evil Devotion. It makes Evil Crusaders very powerful (and makes a level-dip into Binder worth something).


That's really the only advice I can give you. As much as I love the book, Bo9S isn't my specialty.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

VennDygrem

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Re: Help making an Evil Crusader?
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2008, 05:39:36 AM »
Try and convince Strato to allow Elder Evil Devotion. It makes Evil Crusaders very powerful (and makes a level-dip into Binder worth something).


That's really the only advice I can give you. As much as I love the book, Bo9S isn't my specialty.

Binder? Is there a specific vestige geared toward the concept? Or is there a vestige in Elder Evils?
---
So I took a look, and I'm not sure I get why devotion to an Elder Evil would be all that appealing, besides the roleplaying applications. The group I'm joining is going to be the evil Bandits, with the eventual goal of conquest of some of the regions in the setting. Elder Evil-devotion would fit the Cult of the Damned's group, though.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 06:34:36 AM by VennDygrem »

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Help making an Evil Crusader?
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2008, 03:19:43 PM »
Try and convince Strato to allow Elder Evil Devotion. It makes Evil Crusaders very powerful (and makes a level-dip into Binder worth something).


That's really the only advice I can give you. As much as I love the book, Bo9S isn't my specialty.

Binder? Is there a specific vestige geared toward the concept? Or is there a vestige in Elder Evils?
---
So I took a look, and I'm not sure I get why devotion to an Elder Evil would be all that appealing, besides the roleplaying applications. The group I'm joining is going to be the evil Bandits, with the eventual goal of conquest of some of the regions in the setting. Elder Evil-devotion would fit the Cult of the Damned's group, though.

5 free bonus feats. Let me be specific.

Chosen of Evil: Best feat in the book? 1 point of Con damage (which Binder 1 negates, or Strongheart Vest prevents) for a +1-+12 bonus to any d20 roll you want, at will.

Evil's Blessing: Cha to saves for 5 rounds, stacks with everything else (standard action to use, but that's fine if you have a Cohort with WRT or a Surprise Round). Double the bonus if you dealt damage to a Good subtype creature or creature with a Good Aura, like a Paladin.

Insane Defiance: Takes a bit of effort to get, but that ability is retarded!

Willing Deformity: Get melee reach without spending a main feat vital to your character?

Master's Will:

Quote

Ok, so the only penalty this feat brings is you take HP damage if you roll even? And you are a Crusader? I see no drawback here...

And from Exemplars of Evil, one of the best feats you can take is Blessing of the Godless. Free HP reserves are amazing. cheap and easily renewed HP reserves are fucking nuts. At 20th level, you can affect 6 people (counting yourself) and give them an HP reserve of 120 hp. I don't know about you, but Potions of Heal set to CL 12th that only cost 20gp is fucking sick. More so when one potion affects 6 people.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 03:25:12 PM by Sinfire Titan »


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Help making an Evil Crusader?
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2008, 04:43:46 PM »
...Holy shit.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

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And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

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Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

VennDygrem

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Re: Help making an Evil Crusader?
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2008, 05:23:10 PM »
Try and convince Strato to allow Elder Evil Devotion. It makes Evil Crusaders very powerful (and makes a level-dip into Binder worth something).


That's really the only advice I can give you. As much as I love the book, Bo9S isn't my specialty.

Binder? Is there a specific vestige geared toward the concept? Or is there a vestige in Elder Evils?
---
So I took a look, and I'm not sure I get why devotion to an Elder Evil would be all that appealing, besides the roleplaying applications. The group I'm joining is going to be the evil Bandits, with the eventual goal of conquest of some of the regions in the setting. Elder Evil-devotion would fit the Cult of the Damned's group, though.

5 free bonus feats. Let me be specific.

Chosen of Evil: Best feat in the book? 1 point of Con damage (which Binder 1 negates, or Strongheart Vest prevents) for a +1-+12 bonus to any d20 roll you want, at will.

Evil's Blessing: Cha to saves for 5 rounds, stacks with everything else (standard action to use, but that's fine if you have a Cohort with WRT or a Surprise Round). Double the bonus if you dealt damage to a Good subtype creature or creature with a Good Aura, like a Paladin.

Insane Defiance: Takes a bit of effort to get, but that ability is retarded!

Willing Deformity: Get melee reach without spending a main feat vital to your character?

Master's Will:

Quote

Ok, so the only penalty this feat brings is you take HP damage if you roll even? And you are a Crusader? I see no drawback here...

And from Exemplars of Evil, one of the best feats you can take is Blessing of the Godless. Free HP reserves are amazing. cheap and easily renewed HP reserves are fucking nuts. At 20th level, you can affect 6 people (counting yourself) and give them an HP reserve of 120 hp. I don't know about you, but Potions of Heal set to CL 12th that only cost 20gp is fucking sick. More so when one potion affects 6 people.
Some of those are pretty nice.
Where is this Blessing of the Godless? It's not in the table of feats on page 11. Also, Willing Deformity for free, yes, but not Deformity (Tall) to get that bonus to reach, so I'd still be using a feat to get it. You can only select your free feats from that table, not all vile feats.

Still, they're good options, though I still believe, roleplaying-wise, it benefits a half-mad character in the Cult's group better. My character does evil on their own behalf, not that of a grotesque horror looming in the outer reaches.  :cc

All the same, thanks for the heads-up on those. I'll definitely keep them in mind for feat options as well as for future evil campaigns.
--

Also, I hadn't considered Cha-synergy with the Binder. Now I've got to consider multiclassing between Binder and Crusader. :D

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Help making an Evil Crusader?
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2008, 05:48:19 PM »
Blessing of the Godless is in Exemplars of Evil. First feat they print.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

VennDygrem

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Re: Help making an Evil Crusader?
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2008, 06:18:54 PM »
Blessing of the Godless is in Exemplars of Evil. First feat they print.

Whoops, sorry, didn't read the book name right, had it mixed up!  :-[

Omen of Peace

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Re: Help making an Evil Crusader?
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2008, 07:38:55 PM »
The build you proposed won't have IL 5 at level 5 so it can't get ToB then.

Binders don't multiclass very well - though they are sometimes useful for a 1 or 3 level dip. I wouldn't recommend it with crusader.

I fully agree with your assessment of the EE devotion - it's not suitable for most characters. Crazed cultists and all...
« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 07:42:26 PM by Omen of Peace »
The Malazan Book of the Fallen, Steven Erikson

VennDygrem

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Re: Help making an Evil Crusader?
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2008, 07:45:09 PM »
The build you proposed won't have IL 5 at level 5 so it can't get ToB then.

Binders don't multiclass very well - though they are sometimes useful for a 1 or 3 level dip. I wouldn't recommend it with crusader.

I fully agree with your assessment of the EE devotion - it's not suitable for most characters. Crazed cultists and all...

I keep forgetting that even though it's a martial adept class, it only counts for half of the crusader levels. I'll have to adjust my character concept thusly.

Also, as the multiclassing goes, I meant possibly going Binder with dips into Crusader. Still not all that great, but it was a consideration.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 07:47:29 PM by VennDygrem »