Author Topic: What is so great about the Psychic Warrior  (Read 22774 times)

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carnivore

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Re: What is so great about the Psychic Warrior
« Reply #80 on: October 12, 2008, 05:37:21 PM »
As for all this crap about four encounters, that doesn't matter.  When you are out of spells/pp you just don't adventure any more.  That's the way the game works.

oh thats how your games work, the party revolves around the PW..... i can see it now:

PW: thats my last PP ...... lets call it a day boys
Beguiler: what, i still have a lot of spells left... didnt you Budget any PP
PW: No .... i used them all up saving your life...
Crusader: but we have only had two encounters today.... and we havent even gotten to shelter yet
PW: thats too bad ... we just have to set up camp here and wait until tomorrow when i will have More PP
Factum: well i dont want to wait here, but if we cant go on without you ..... lets make camp
Dread Necromancer: i dont know about everyone else.... but isnt it a little silly camping right outside of the Town...they can still see us, lets just go back and stay at an Inn
Crusader: but why?,... im still fresh and ready to go
Factum: because ... everyone knows this party could not survive without the Awesome PW

you are so right

Oh, now I get it.
carnivore and ubernoob have a fundamental disagreement on how to structure the challenge.
Without me trying to adjudicate that, or get between them otherwise ...


Basically:

1 encounter - PsyWar nova - couldn't possibly be as good as a Psion nova
2 encounters - PsyWar mini-nova good ubernoob
3 encounters - PsyWar might become iffy carnivore
4+ encounters - pp is the major limiter here on out , fewer "spell" slots than a bad bard , 1/2 the "spells"


exactly what i mean.......

only for COMBAT ENCOUNTERS..... PW is virtually useless for anything else, if optimized for Combat

levels 1-5

1 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 4
2 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 5
3 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 5
4 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 6

Levels 6-10

1 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 3
2 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 4
3 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 4
4 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 5

Levels 11-15

1 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 3
2 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 3
3 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 4
4 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 4

Levels 16-20

1 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 3
2 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 3
3 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 3
4 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 3


 :D

dark_samuari

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Re: What is so great about the Psychic Warrior
« Reply #81 on: October 12, 2008, 06:14:42 PM »
But Carnivore, how does this make the Psychic Warrior an equal to the Warmage? The tiers aren't based off of endurance, as stated in them, if that was the case then Warlock & DFA would be higher.

Ubernoob

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Re: What is so great about the Psychic Warrior
« Reply #82 on: October 12, 2008, 07:02:58 PM »
As for all this crap about four encounters, that doesn't matter.  When you are out of spells/pp you just don't adventure any more.  That's the way the game works.

oh thats how your games work, the party revolves around the PW..... i can see it now:
Spellcasters have been saying "outa spells, time to rope trick" for the past eight years.  So, yeah.  Psychic warriors don't need to last more than three encounters because their caster buddies are out of top end SoDs after three encounters too.

And, no there hasn't been any novas.  Do the fucking math.  Expansion lasts all day.  Claws of the beast lasts all day.  Detect Hostile Intent lasts a long ass time.  Bite of the Wolf lasts a long ass time.  The only power that's needed to be done every encounter has been:
Grip of Iron (doesn't really need to be augmented and doesn't really cost actions)
Hustle (linked to claws of the vampire)

So blowing three top end slots at the start of the day and one slot per encounter is nova tactics?  What are you smoking?
Quote from: Carnivore
PW: thats my last PP ...... lets call it a day boys
Beguiler: what, i still have a lot of spells left... didnt you Budget any PP
PW: No .... i used them all up saving your life...
Crusader: but we have only had two encounters today.... and we havent even gotten to shelter yet
PW: thats too bad ... we just have to set up camp here and wait until tomorrow when i will have More PP
Factum: well i dont want to wait here, but if we cant go on without you ..... lets make camp
Dread Necromancer: i dont know about everyone else.... but isnt it a little silly camping right outside of the Town...they can still see us, lets just go back and stay at an Inn
Crusader: but why?,... im still fresh and ready to go
Factum: because ... everyone knows this party could not survive without the Awesome PW

you are so right
Dread necromancer and beguiler are easily a tier above PW.  Factotum sucks balls in combat and has a bunch of 1/day abilities and has no endurance.  Crusader gets his ass handed to him for BC by the PW and healing on a 4 encounter budget.  So, basically you have no fucking clue what you are talking about.
Quote from: Carniover
Oh, now I get it.
carnivore and ubernoob have a fundamental disagreement on how to structure the challenge.
Without me trying to adjudicate that, or get between them otherwise ...


Basically:

1 encounter - PsyWar nova - couldn't possibly be as good as a Psion nova
2 encounters - PsyWar mini-nova good ubernoob
3 encounters - PsyWar might become iffy carnivore
4+ encounters - pp is the major limiter here on out , fewer "spell" slots than a bad bard , 1/2 the "spells"


exactly what i mean.......

only for COMBAT ENCOUNTERS..... PW is virtually useless for anything else, if optimized for Combat
Quote from: SRD
Detect Hostile Intent
Telepathy [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Psion/wilder 2, psychic warrior 2
Display: Olfactory
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 30 ft.
Area: 30-ft.-radius emanation centered on you
Duration: 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Power Resistance: No
Power Points: 3

While the duration of this power lasts, you become aware of the presence of any creatures with hostile intent within 30 feet of you, and their direction from you (but not their specific location). The power detects active aggression, as opposed to vigilance. In addition, while this power is active you cannot be surprised or caught flat-footed by creatures that are susceptible to mind-affecting powers.

While under the effect of this power, you can make Sense Motive checks as a free action against anyone within 30 feet of you.

The power can penetrate barriers, but 3 feet of stone, 3 inches of common metal, 1 inch of lead, or 6 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.
Quote from: SRD
Dimension Door, Psionic
Psychoportation (Teleportation)
Level: Psion/wilder 4, psychic warrior 4
Display: Visual
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Target or Targets: You and touched objects or other touched willing creatures
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None and Will negates (object)
Power Resistance: No and Yes (object)
Power Points: 7

As the dimension door spell, except as noted here.

Augment
If you spend 6 additional power points, you can manifest this power as a move action.
Again, what are you smoking?
Quote from: Carnivore
levels 1-5

1 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 4
2 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 5
3 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 5
4 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 6
Let's look at the four encounter day:
Level 1-Fighter with one less bab, but gets TWF without penalties with daggers and gets full strength for two hours a day.  That's pretty damn good.
Level 2-Fighter with one less bab, but gets 8 hours of TWF a day.  Still looking good.
Level 3-Fighter with one less bab, but gets TWF with short swords at full strength all day and an hour and a half of enlarge person.  Looks pretty good to me.
Level 4-Fighter with one less bab and feat, but gets pounce.  Holy fucking shit.  Trading one bab and a feat for pounce?  That's pretty fucking good.  And that's on top of being big all the time.  Large size, pounce, TWF, seems like a good deal.
Level 5-Holy fucking shit.  I get to dual wield long swords now?  I also get extra move actions a couple times per day?  This is fucking great.  Wait.  I also have as many feats as a fighter now at the cost of another point of bab?  Good deal.  I get to TWF with long swords at large size with full bab, but the standard penalties.  I also get full strength to off hand attacks.

Fighter is tier five.  Those were just all day long powers.
Quote from: Carnivore
Levels 6-10

1 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 3
2 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 4
3 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 4
4 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 5
Level 6-Sweet, still just 2 bab behind the fighter and one feat behind.  I get to be large size all day and TWF with long swords at full strength to offhand with no penalty to hit as a class feature though.
Level 7-Holy fucking shit.  Not only do I get to grow two size catagories, but now I'm dual weilding great swords.  That's just from my old powers.  If I blow a standard action I can heal like 3d6 a hit too.  No iteratives, but I'm healing like 21 per round and dishing out pretty damn good DPS
Level 8-Still just one feat behind the fighter and two bab short.  Also, I can teleport around now.  That's haus.
Level 9-Well, I'm three bab behind the fighter now, but I can teleport as a move action.  Also, I have lots more pp to spend on stuff. 
Level 10-Three bab and two feats behind a fighter.  Know what I got in return?  Improved Critical(Claws).  Not bad.  I'm getting a lot of virtual feats here to make up for those two feats I lost.  Being huge size is kind of worth 3 bab (large size all the time typically costs at least 2 LA, so huge size has to be worth at least 3 bab). 


Basically, what are you smoking to put PW on the same level as fighter?  And to put him below... shows a severe lack of understanding of the game.  Remember, I'm only assuming constant stuff here.
Quote from: Carnivore
Levels 11-15

1 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 3
2 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 3
3 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 4
4 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 4
Level 11-Do you know of any weapon that does 3d6 base damage for medium creatures?  Well, if there was a weapon that good I'd be dual wielding it.  I deal like 8d6 a hit for my weapon damage and heal like 28 damage a round.  That's better than what a crusader can do for damage output and healing.  Also, I get DR 5/-.  That's better than anything some pussy barbarian gets.
Level 12-Two feats and 3 bab behind a fighter, but what do I care at this point?  I tank better than a crusader.  I also ignore the cloud line now because I have freedom of movement at my disposal.
Level 13-Holy fucking shit I just got a lot of immunities and I get to ignore the weakness because I planned ahead.  Sure I'm 4 bab behind a fighter and two feats short, but I have so much more adaptability that it isn't even funny.  Plus, I'm a total tank.
Level 14-This is a relatively dead level.  Just keeping two bonus feats behind a fighter here.
Level 15-Holy fucking shit.  I just picked up rapidstrike, so get four claw attacks a round in addition to my bite attack.  My DPS just fucking skyrocketed and I heal twice as much now.  Eat it, crusaders.  You don't get any noticable healing strikes for another two levels and they still don't keep pace with the 16d8 (average 72) damage I get on a full attack without totally tanking your offense.

Yeah, Psychic Warriors are better tanks than crusaders.  Get over it.
Quote from: Carnivore
Levels 16-20

1 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 3
2 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 3
3 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 3
4 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 3
 :D
Level 16-Holy Fucking Shit I just improved my offense and defense.
Level 17-Holy Shit this is good
Level 18-Bad ass.  I don't need the 9th guys today.
Level 19- My claws got better AGAIN?!  God damn.  I've got a 5d6 weapon for a medium creature that deals collosal damage and I heal half it's base dice damage.  I'm a mother fucking tank.


Yeah, psychic warriors are as good or better than crusaders if they are moderately well built.  The only problem level is level 1.
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Midnight_v

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Re: What is so great about the Psychic Warrior
« Reply #83 on: October 12, 2008, 08:02:06 PM »
 :D
Ubernoob.

Fuck yeah.
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awaken DM golem

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Re: What is so great about the Psychic Warrior
« Reply #84 on: October 13, 2008, 07:56:21 PM »
Tshern and Sunic_Flames ... (stalled debate) + (aDMg ~vagueness) = (un-stalled debate)

Hey, PsyWar hasn't gotten any attention for about 3-4 years, it didn't get a look after the Mind's Eye updates, and now it's being given a good thrashing. Sweet. Now that I've had a gander at it all ...

Linked Power vs. Schism
I think I'm picking Linked Power.
Schism might be a better choice for a Telepath, just cause it's stays 1 feat slot ahead, and has the power slots.
Schism might be an OK choice after Linked Power, for even more nova-ing.

Mantled PsyWar option in Mind's Eye, subs the 2nd level feat slot, for a Mantle, and Substitute Powers means what it says.
Better than Expanded Knowledge at the moment you'd take it, and better before; and opens up more out-of-combat picks.
 ... downside ... takes away a feat slot of one of the uber/carn (or is that carn/uber) builds.




Fox Lee

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Re: What is so great about the Psychic Warrior
« Reply #85 on: October 13, 2008, 09:05:25 PM »
My inclination is to wonder if levels influence this. The Warlock is very saucy at low levels, but it hurts for anything really special to do at the mid levels and beyond (and not being able to iterate blast attacks brings its damage down nastily). Perhaps in a game where resources were very strained (lots of encounters per day, or unreliable rest), the Warlock would put in a stronger showing due to the nature of invocations, but our group never ran up against a situation where the other characters exhausted their options until the very, very end, when the Wilder finally had to start being careful with his PP. Bo9S stuff makes the Warlock look especially bad.

The Psychic warrior gets some fantastic powers (expansion, psionic lion's pounce, etc.), but most of the ones that really excite me show up at power levels 1-3, meaning they're also quite easy on the PP. The augment system really makes the PsiWar shine, IMO, because they can keep those low-level powers useful as they level up.

This is just my experience, and I can't address classes like the Warmage because I have little experience with them; I played a Warlock for over a year, and have played at least three PsiWars I can remember.

Ubernoob

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Re: What is so great about the Psychic Warrior
« Reply #86 on: October 13, 2008, 09:13:46 PM »
My inclination is to wonder if levels influence this. The Warlock is very saucy at low levels, but it hurts for anything really special to do at the mid levels and beyond (and not being able to iterate blast attacks brings its damage down nastily). Perhaps in a game where resources were very strained (lots of encounters per day, or unreliable rest), the Warlock would put in a stronger showing due to the nature of invocations, but our group never ran up against a situation where the other characters exhausted their options until the very, very end, when the Wilder finally had to start being careful with his PP. Bo9S stuff makes the Warlock look especially bad.

The Psychic warrior gets some fantastic powers (expansion, psionic lion's pounce, etc.), but most of the ones that really excite me show up at power levels 1-3, meaning they're also quite easy on the PP. The augment system really makes the PsiWar shine, IMO, because they can keep those low-level powers useful as they level up.

This is just my experience, and I can't address classes like the Warmage because I have little experience with them; I played a Warlock for over a year, and have played at least three PsiWars I can remember.
Expansion keeps getting better until about ML 9.  Claws of the beast keeps getting better to ML 19.
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carnivore

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Re: What is so great about the Psychic Warrior
« Reply #87 on: October 15, 2008, 08:25:42 PM »
As for all this crap about four encounters, that doesn't matter.  When you are out of spells/pp you just don't adventure any more.  That's the way the game works.

oh thats how your games work, the party revolves around the PW..... i can see it now:
Spellcasters have been saying "outa spells, time to rope trick" for the past eight years.  So, yeah.  Psychic warriors don't need to last more than three encounters because their caster buddies are out of top end SoDs after three encounters too.

And, no there hasn't been any novas.  Do the fucking math.  Expansion lasts all day.  Claws of the beast lasts all day.  Detect Hostile Intent lasts a long ass time.  Bite of the Wolf lasts a long ass time.  The only power that's needed to be done every encounter has been:
Grip of Iron (doesn't really need to be augmented and doesn't really cost actions)
Hustle (linked to claws of the vampire)

So blowing three top end slots at the start of the day and one slot per encounter is nova tactics?  What are you smoking?
Quote from: Carnivore
PW: thats my last PP ...... lets call it a day boys
Beguiler: what, i still have a lot of spells left... didnt you Budget any PP
PW: No .... i used them all up saving your life...
Crusader: but we have only had two encounters today.... and we havent even gotten to shelter yet
PW: thats too bad ... we just have to set up camp here and wait until tomorrow when i will have More PP
Factum: well i dont want to wait here, but if we cant go on without you ..... lets make camp
Dread Necromancer: i dont know about everyone else.... but isnt it a little silly camping right outside of the Town...they can still see us, lets just go back and stay at an Inn
Crusader: but why?,... im still fresh and ready to go
Factum: because ... everyone knows this party could not survive without the Awesome PW

you are so right
Dread necromancer and beguiler are easily a tier above PW.  Factotum sucks balls in combat and has a bunch of 1/day abilities and has no endurance.  Crusader gets his ass handed to him for BC by the PW and healing on a 4 encounter budget.  So, basically you have no fucking clue what you are talking about.
Quote from: Carniover
Oh, now I get it.
carnivore and ubernoob have a fundamental disagreement on how to structure the challenge.
Without me trying to adjudicate that, or get between them otherwise ...


Basically:

1 encounter - PsyWar nova - couldn't possibly be as good as a Psion nova
2 encounters - PsyWar mini-nova good ubernoob
3 encounters - PsyWar might become iffy carnivore
4+ encounters - pp is the major limiter here on out , fewer "spell" slots than a bad bard , 1/2 the "spells"


exactly what i mean.......

only for COMBAT ENCOUNTERS..... PW is virtually useless for anything else, if optimized for Combat
Quote from: SRD
Detect Hostile Intent
Telepathy [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Psion/wilder 2, psychic warrior 2
Display: Olfactory
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 30 ft.
Area: 30-ft.-radius emanation centered on you
Duration: 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Power Resistance: No
Power Points: 3

While the duration of this power lasts, you become aware of the presence of any creatures with hostile intent within 30 feet of you, and their direction from you (but not their specific location). The power detects active aggression, as opposed to vigilance. In addition, while this power is active you cannot be surprised or caught flat-footed by creatures that are susceptible to mind-affecting powers.

While under the effect of this power, you can make Sense Motive checks as a free action against anyone within 30 feet of you.

The power can penetrate barriers, but 3 feet of stone, 3 inches of common metal, 1 inch of lead, or 6 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.
Quote from: SRD
Dimension Door, Psionic
Psychoportation (Teleportation)
Level: Psion/wilder 4, psychic warrior 4
Display: Visual
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Target or Targets: You and touched objects or other touched willing creatures
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None and Will negates (object)
Power Resistance: No and Yes (object)
Power Points: 7

As the dimension door spell, except as noted here.

Augment
If you spend 6 additional power points, you can manifest this power as a move action.
Again, what are you smoking?
Quote from: Carnivore
levels 1-5

1 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 4
2 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 5
3 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 5
4 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 6
Let's look at the four encounter day:
Level 1-Fighter with one less bab, but gets TWF without penalties with daggers and gets full strength for two hours a day.  That's pretty damn good.
Level 2-Fighter with one less bab, but gets 8 hours of TWF a day.  Still looking good.
Level 3-Fighter with one less bab, but gets TWF with short swords at full strength all day and an hour and a half of enlarge person.  Looks pretty good to me.
Level 4-Fighter with one less bab and feat, but gets pounce.  Holy fucking shit.  Trading one bab and a feat for pounce?  That's pretty fucking good.  And that's on top of being big all the time.  Large size, pounce, TWF, seems like a good deal.
Level 5-Holy fucking shit.  I get to dual wield long swords now?  I also get extra move actions a couple times per day?  This is fucking great.  Wait.  I also have as many feats as a fighter now at the cost of another point of bab?  Good deal.  I get to TWF with long swords at large size with full bab, but the standard penalties.  I also get full strength to off hand attacks.

Fighter is tier five.  Those were just all day long powers.
Quote from: Carnivore
Levels 6-10

1 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 3
2 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 4
3 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 4
4 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 5
Level 6-Sweet, still just 2 bab behind the fighter and one feat behind.  I get to be large size all day and TWF with long swords at full strength to offhand with no penalty to hit as a class feature though.
Level 7-Holy fucking shit.  Not only do I get to grow two size catagories, but now I'm dual weilding great swords.  That's just from my old powers.  If I blow a standard action I can heal like 3d6 a hit too.  No iteratives, but I'm healing like 21 per round and dishing out pretty damn good DPS
Level 8-Still just one feat behind the fighter and two bab short.  Also, I can teleport around now.  That's haus.
Level 9-Well, I'm three bab behind the fighter now, but I can teleport as a move action.  Also, I have lots more pp to spend on stuff. 
Level 10-Three bab and two feats behind a fighter.  Know what I got in return?  Improved Critical(Claws).  Not bad.  I'm getting a lot of virtual feats here to make up for those two feats I lost.  Being huge size is kind of worth 3 bab (large size all the time typically costs at least 2 LA, so huge size has to be worth at least 3 bab). 


Basically, what are you smoking to put PW on the same level as fighter?  And to put him below... shows a severe lack of understanding of the game.  Remember, I'm only assuming constant stuff here.
Quote from: Carnivore
Levels 11-15

1 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 3
2 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 3
3 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 4
4 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 4
Level 11-Do you know of any weapon that does 3d6 base damage for medium creatures?  Well, if there was a weapon that good I'd be dual wielding it.  I deal like 8d6 a hit for my weapon damage and heal like 28 damage a round.  That's better than what a crusader can do for damage output and healing.  Also, I get DR 5/-.  That's better than anything some pussy barbarian gets.
Level 12-Two feats and 3 bab behind a fighter, but what do I care at this point?  I tank better than a crusader.  I also ignore the cloud line now because I have freedom of movement at my disposal.
Level 13-Holy fucking shit I just got a lot of immunities and I get to ignore the weakness because I planned ahead.  Sure I'm 4 bab behind a fighter and two feats short, but I have so much more adaptability that it isn't even funny.  Plus, I'm a total tank.
Level 14-This is a relatively dead level.  Just keeping two bonus feats behind a fighter here.
Level 15-Holy fucking shit.  I just picked up rapidstrike, so get four claw attacks a round in addition to my bite attack.  My DPS just fucking skyrocketed and I heal twice as much now.  Eat it, crusaders.  You don't get any noticable healing strikes for another two levels and they still don't keep pace with the 16d8 (average 72) damage I get on a full attack without totally tanking your offense.

Yeah, Psychic Warriors are better tanks than crusaders.  Get over it.
Quote from: Carnivore
Levels 16-20

1 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 3
2 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 3
3 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 3
4 encounter/day ....... PW = Tier 3
 :D
Level 16-Holy Fucking Shit I just improved my offense and defense.
Level 17-Holy Shit this is good
Level 18-Bad ass.  I don't need the 9th guys today.
Level 19- My claws got better AGAIN?!  God damn.  I've got a 5d6 weapon for a medium creature that deals collosal damage and I heal half it's base dice damage.  I'm a mother fucking tank.


Yeah, psychic warriors are as good or better than crusaders if they are moderately well built.  The only problem level is level 1.
i havent forgot this yet.... am working on other projects now... will address this this weekend

 :D

Achiever_Type

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Re: What is so great about the Psychic Warrior
« Reply #88 on: October 16, 2008, 09:03:21 AM »
PW is a combat monster.  Many builds have proven that.  PW is a GREAT dip class.  FREAKING STUPENDOUS dip class.  No, I can't emphasize enough how freaking rockin' you sockz this class is for dipping.  PP reserve for psionic feats, 2 powers known, a bab(1.5 with fractional!), and 2 feats for 2 levels.  YES.

Its not tier 1:  I've not seen nor thought of any PW builds that say, "So after I decapitated the ancient red dragon on the surprise round, I used my dc 60 diplomacy check to enthrall all its followers.  They are setting up for my manicure now."  Psion can say that.  PW can't(unless I see builds that make me eat that tasty foot I've got on the floor below me).  Its not tier 2 by with this evaluation either.  its tier 3.  It rips the head off stuff. It does that well.  Bonus points for dip-ability and call it 2.5?

carnivore

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Re: What is so great about the Psychic Warrior
« Reply #89 on: October 16, 2008, 07:33:00 PM »
Let's look at the four encounter day:
Level 1-Fighter with one less bab, but gets TWF without penalties with daggers and gets full strength for two hours a day.  That's pretty damn good.
how are you getting that?
Quote

Level 2-Fighter with one less bab, but gets 8 hours of TWF a day.  Still looking good.
again... how?
Quote
Level 3-Fighter with one less bab, but gets TWF with short swords at full strength all day and an hour and a half of enlarge person.  Looks pretty good to me.
how?
Quote
Level 4-Fighter with one less bab and feat, but gets pounce.  Holy fucking shit.  Trading one bab and a feat for pounce?  That's pretty fucking good.  And that's on top of being big all the time.  Large size, pounce, TWF, seems like a good deal.
Hustle
Quote
Level 5-Holy fucking shit.  I get to dual wield long swords now?  I also get extra move actions a couple times per day?  This is fucking great.  Wait.  I also have as many feats as a fighter now at the cost of another point of bab?  Good deal.  I get to TWF with long swords at large size with full bab, but the standard penalties.  I also get full strength to off hand attacks.Fighter is tier five.  Those were just all day long powers.

Level 6-Sweet, still just 2 bab behind the fighter and one feat behind.  I get to be large size all day and TWF with long swords at full strength to offhand with no penalty to hit as a class feature though.
how?
Quote
Level 7-Holy fucking shit.  Not only do I get to grow two size catagories, but now I'm dual weilding great swords.  That's just from my old powers.  If I blow a standard action I can heal like 3d6 a hit too.  No iteratives, but I'm healing like 21 per round and dishing out pretty damn good DPS
how again?
Quote
Level 8-Still just one feat behind the fighter and two bab short.  Also, I can teleport around now.  That's haus.
Level 9-Well, I'm three bab behind the fighter now, but I can teleport as a move action.  Also, I have lots more pp to spend on stuff. 
Level 10-Three bab and two feats behind a fighter.  Know what I got in return?  Improved Critical(Claws).  Not bad.  I'm getting a lot of virtual feats here to make up for those two feats I lost.  Being huge size is kind of worth 3 bab (large size all the time typically costs at least 2 LA, so huge size has to be worth at least 3 bab). 


Basically, what are you smoking to put PW on the same level as fighter?  And to put him below... shows a severe lack of understanding of the game.  Remember, I'm only assuming constant stuff here.

Level 11-Do you know of any weapon that does 3d6 base damage for medium creatures?  Well, if there was a weapon that good I'd be dual wielding it.  I deal like 8d6 a hit for my weapon damage and heal like 28 damage a round.  That's better than what a crusader can do for damage output and healing.  Also, I get DR 5/-.  That's better than anything some pussy barbarian gets.
Level 12-Two feats and 3 bab behind a fighter, but what do I care at this point?  I tank better than a crusader.  I also ignore the cloud line now because I have freedom of movement at my disposal.
Level 13-Holy fucking shit I just got a lot of immunities and I get to ignore the weakness because I planned ahead.  Sure I'm 4 bab behind a fighter and two feats short, but I have so much more adaptability that it isn't even funny.  Plus, I'm a total tank.
Level 14-This is a relatively dead level.  Just keeping two bonus feats behind a fighter here.
Level 15-Holy fucking shit.  I just picked up rapidstrike, so get four claw attacks a round in addition to my bite attack.  My DPS just fucking skyrocketed and I heal twice as much now.  Eat it, crusaders.  You don't get any noticable healing strikes for another two levels and they still don't keep pace with the 16d8 (average 72) damage I get on a full attack without totally tanking your offense.

Yeah, Psychic Warriors are better tanks than crusaders.  Get over it.

Level 16-Holy Fucking Shit I just improved my offense and defense.
Level 17-Holy Shit this is good
Level 18-Bad ass.  I don't need the 9th guys today.
Level 19- My claws got better AGAIN?!  God damn.  I've got a 5d6 weapon for a medium creature that deals collosal damage and I heal half it's base dice damage.  I'm a mother fucking tank.


Yeah, psychic warriors are as good or better than crusaders if they are moderately well built.  The only problem level is level 1.
if you could post what powers and feats this example is using.... i could understand where you are coming from... please post Powers and Feats

 :D

Ubernoob

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Re: What is so great about the Psychic Warrior
« Reply #90 on: October 16, 2008, 07:47:20 PM »
Let's look at the four encounter day:
Level 1-Fighter with one less bab, but gets TWF without penalties with daggers and gets full strength for two hours a day.  That's pretty damn good.
how are you getting that?
Claws of the Beast scales really well.  That answers most of your questions.
Quote from: Carnivore
Quote

Level 2-Fighter with one less bab, but gets 8 hours of TWF a day.  Still looking good.
again... how?
Quote
Level 3-Fighter with one less bab, but gets TWF with short swords at full strength all day and an hour and a half of enlarge person.  Looks pretty good to me.
how?
Quote
Level 4-Fighter with one less bab and feat, but gets pounce.  Holy fucking shit.  Trading one bab and a feat for pounce?  That's pretty fucking good.  And that's on top of being big all the time.  Large size, pounce, TWF, seems like a good deal.
Hustle
Quote
Level 5-Holy fucking shit.  I get to dual wield long swords now?  I also get extra move actions a couple times per day?  This is fucking great.  Wait.  I also have as many feats as a fighter now at the cost of another point of bab?  Good deal.  I get to TWF with long swords at large size with full bab, but the standard penalties.  I also get full strength to off hand attacks.Fighter is tier five.  Those were just all day long powers.

Level 6-Sweet, still just 2 bab behind the fighter and one feat behind.  I get to be large size all day and TWF with long swords at full strength to offhand with no penalty to hit as a class feature though.
how?
Quote
Level 7-Holy fucking shit.  Not only do I get to grow two size catagories, but now I'm dual weilding great swords.  That's just from my old powers.  If I blow a standard action I can heal like 3d6 a hit too.  No iteratives, but I'm healing like 21 per round and dishing out pretty damn good DPS
how again?
Claws of the vampire.  You link it to hustle.
Quote from: Carnivore
Quote
Level 8-Still just one feat behind the fighter and two bab short.  Also, I can teleport around now.  That's haus.
Level 9-Well, I'm three bab behind the fighter now, but I can teleport as a move action.  Also, I have lots more pp to spend on stuff. 
Level 10-Three bab and two feats behind a fighter.  Know what I got in return?  Improved Critical(Claws).  Not bad.  I'm getting a lot of virtual feats here to make up for those two feats I lost.  Being huge size is kind of worth 3 bab (large size all the time typically costs at least 2 LA, so huge size has to be worth at least 3 bab). 


Basically, what are you smoking to put PW on the same level as fighter?  And to put him below... shows a severe lack of understanding of the game.  Remember, I'm only assuming constant stuff here.

Level 11-Do you know of any weapon that does 3d6 base damage for medium creatures?  Well, if there was a weapon that good I'd be dual wielding it.  I deal like 8d6 a hit for my weapon damage and heal like 28 damage a round.  That's better than what a crusader can do for damage output and healing.  Also, I get DR 5/-.  That's better than anything some pussy barbarian gets.
Level 12-Two feats and 3 bab behind a fighter, but what do I care at this point?  I tank better than a crusader.  I also ignore the cloud line now because I have freedom of movement at my disposal.
Level 13-Holy fucking shit I just got a lot of immunities and I get to ignore the weakness because I planned ahead.  Sure I'm 4 bab behind a fighter and two feats short, but I have so much more adaptability that it isn't even funny.  Plus, I'm a total tank.
Level 14-This is a relatively dead level.  Just keeping two bonus feats behind a fighter here.
Level 15-Holy fucking shit.  I just picked up rapidstrike, so get four claw attacks a round in addition to my bite attack.  My DPS just fucking skyrocketed and I heal twice as much now.  Eat it, crusaders.  You don't get any noticable healing strikes for another two levels and they still don't keep pace with the 16d8 (average 72) damage I get on a full attack without totally tanking your offense.

Yeah, Psychic Warriors are better tanks than crusaders.  Get over it.

Level 16-Holy Fucking Shit I just improved my offense and defense.
Level 17-Holy Shit this is good
Level 18-Bad ass.  I don't need the 9th guys today.
Level 19- My claws got better AGAIN?!  God damn.  I've got a 5d6 weapon for a medium creature that deals collosal damage and I heal half it's base dice damage.  I'm a mother fucking tank.


Yeah, psychic warriors are as good or better than crusaders if they are moderately well built.  The only problem level is level 1.
if you could post what powers and feats this example is using.... i could understand where you are coming from... please post Powers and Feats

 :D
From 1-20
1) Claws of the Beast
2) Bite of the Wolf
3) Expansion
4) Psionic Lion's Pounce
5) Hustle
6) Detect Hostile Intent
7) Claws of the Vampire
8) Dimension Slide
9) Duodimensional Claw
10) Dimension Door, Psionic
11) Inertial Barrier
12) Energy Adaptation
13) Oak Body
14) Adapt Body
15) I didn't even pick a power here
16) Form of Doom
17) Dispelling Buffer
18) Personal Mind Blank
19) I didn't even pick a power here.
20) I didn't even pick a power here.

Edit: Forgot feats
Ones I assumed:
Psionic Meditation, Link Power, INA(Claws), Rapidstrike

That's 4 feats spent out of 15 for my example to work.
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Re: What is so great about the Psychic Warrior
« Reply #91 on: October 16, 2008, 08:37:46 PM »
That is quite a killer powerlist right there. I personally like Freedom of movement, but you have quite a few slots open for that in case someone wants it. Bonus feats make sure that you can grab Metamorphosis too if that suits the situation.

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Re: What is so great about the Psychic Warrior
« Reply #92 on: October 16, 2008, 08:56:41 PM »
That is quite a killer powerlist right there. I personally like Freedom of movement, but you have quite a few slots open for that in case someone wants it. Bonus feats make sure that you can grab Metamorphosis too if that suits the situation.
I dislike putting FoM on psychic warriors because they get expansion.  Half the battle is already won without further pp expenditure.  It helps against solid fog though, but I'd rather have the ring at the levels the fog spells start getting really good and not risk the action to manifest FoM.
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Re: What is so great about the Psychic Warrior
« Reply #93 on: October 16, 2008, 09:02:43 PM »
Dimension door and Dimension slide also provide decent ways of escaping Solid fog and the like. Dimension slide can even, I think, be augmented to use only a move action (Hustle much?), but I have a little soft spot in my heart for Freedom of movement.

Hmm, it seems psionic version is personal, not touch. That makes it even worse.

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Re: What is so great about the Psychic Warrior
« Reply #94 on: October 17, 2008, 03:14:20 PM »
Good points, Ubernoob, but there are a few tiny quibbles about using Claws of the Beast.

It scales REALLY well, but only realistically with your highest attack. I've yet to see a DM who allowed rapidstrike, other than me, that is. If you don't get that, you're still doing okay - PWs don't get a whole lot of iteratives, so claw/claw/bite is just about as good, if not better, than hitting sword/sword/sword anyway.

Your claws never gain any kind of feature for overcoming DR. At mid-high levels, I expect most weapon-based melee people to have adamantine (if not transmuting or metalline) weapons with 2d6 - 3d6 elemental damage (not quite as good due to resistances, but holy is almost always a winner). Sure, you could get someone else to cast magic fang on you, but you don't have room for metaphysical claw in that build.

Magic Swords are also not subject to the same problems when they get caught in a dispel magic. This happens a lot too, and is why I (as a DM or player) don't actually worry too much about when other people start whipping out the hour/level major buffs or divine metamagic: persist. Most well-designed boss encounters have a fair number of dispels in them.

Getting back to the core of the issue: I really like the Psychic Warrior. They get a lot of nice buffs, especially long-duration or exceedingly-utility oriented, so they can afford to budget for 5 encounters a day. They're respectable but not really overpowered. I'm not sure which tier I'd stick them in, but their overall defense and mobility capabilities put them head and shoulders above straight fighters and barbarians, and roughly equivalent to crusaders (crusaders have plenty staying power, but less innate defense and mobility). I'd personally pick up greater concealing amorpha, maybe force screen (retrained when you can afford the 9k for an animated shield), and some other defense in there to really make the case for the PsyWar's capabilities and overall power.

Ubernoob

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Re: What is so great about the Psychic Warrior
« Reply #95 on: October 17, 2008, 04:13:25 PM »
Good points, Ubernoob, but there are a few tiny quibbles about using Claws of the Beast.

It scales REALLY well, but only realistically with your highest attack. I've yet to see a DM who allowed rapidstrike, other than me, that is. If you don't get that, you're still doing okay - PWs don't get a whole lot of iteratives, so claw/claw/bite is just about as good, if not better, than hitting sword/sword/sword anyway.

Your claws never gain any kind of feature for overcoming DR. At mid-high levels, I expect most weapon-based melee people to have adamantine (if not transmuting or metalline) weapons with 2d6 - 3d6 elemental damage (not quite as good due to resistances, but holy is almost always a winner). Sure, you could get someone else to cast magic fang on you, but you don't have room for metaphysical claw in that build.

Magic Swords are also not subject to the same problems when they get caught in a dispel magic. This happens a lot too, and is why I (as a DM or player) don't actually worry too much about when other people start whipping out the hour/level major buffs or divine metamagic: persist. Most well-designed boss encounters have a fair number of dispels in them.

Getting back to the core of the issue: I really like the Psychic Warrior. They get a lot of nice buffs, especially long-duration or exceedingly-utility oriented, so they can afford to budget for 5 encounters a day. They're respectable but not really overpowered. I'm not sure which tier I'd stick them in, but their overall defense and mobility capabilities put them head and shoulders above straight fighters and barbarians, and roughly equivalent to crusaders (crusaders have plenty staying power, but less innate defense and mobility). I'd personally pick up greater concealing amorpha, maybe force screen (retrained when you can afford the 9k for an animated shield), and some other defense in there to really make the case for the PsyWar's capabilities and overall power.
On the whole: Fair 'nuff.  That was just an example I threw together in ten minutes.  Rapidstrike isn't really needed for the PW to be a better tank than the crusader (karmic strike was in the original king of smack and double hit shouldn't be hard to sqeeze in).  12d6 (average 42) a round is really pretty nice on top of your full attack when you mix in karmic strike or robilar's gambit for healing every time you take damage.

I was assuming GMF on the claws, but you can easily drop a power to get it yourself.  The pp cost is just more than it is worth IMO.

If you want iteratives, there's a pretty easy solution:
Vampiric Blade
Illithid Slayer (to get higher bab for iteratives)
Metamorphasis from EK into a Treant

That way you can just full attack (and get more reach) dealing something like on your spiked chain:
6d6 base damage
4 base attacks, 1 haste attack, anything else from robilars/karmic strike.

Assuming all of those hit (the last iterative probably won't and the second to last has a decent chance of failure) you'd be healing 15d6 (avg 52) per round with an extra 10 per hit you take.


All told, that is by no means the best PW build ever.  I threw it up in something like ten minutes.  I'm sure there are other viable routes to the class.  In fact, the ability for something I threw up in ten minutes to be good and still have room for improvement says something about how versatile the class is in function.
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Re: What is so great about the Psychic Warrior
« Reply #96 on: October 17, 2008, 05:38:43 PM »
hmm

Before the fireworks start again,
I'll point out that Tier 3 seems to be agree-able, from level 20 down to the argument point.
And first level is objectively weaker than Cleric 1.

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Re: What is so great about the Psychic Warrior
« Reply #97 on: October 17, 2008, 05:42:51 PM »
before 10th lvl .... i would put it at a low Tier 4 ..... 11-15th low Tier 3.... 16th-20th Tier 3

 :D

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Re: What is so great about the Psychic Warrior
« Reply #98 on: October 17, 2008, 06:02:18 PM »
ubernoob ..... hows this for your example build

heres the base:

Kalashtar

Psychic Warrior

Base attributes(25 point buy)

15 Str (15)
13 Dex (13)
14 Con (14)
8 Int (8 )
14 Wis (14)
8 Cha (8 )



feats:
1) Power Attack
PW 1) Improved Bullrush
PW 2) Knockback[spoiler]Knockback
« Last Edit: October 17, 2008, 06:30:00 PM by carnivore »

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Re: What is so great about the Psychic Warrior
« Reply #99 on: October 17, 2008, 06:17:00 PM »
Think is anyone can build an argument picking apart a single build.
I doesn't make sense because no specific build can represent the entire class.
We need another rubric, sir.
Oh and powerful charge? At level 20? C'mon you can do better.

Uber and I just had lunch and I disagree about Gambit
I think Karmic.
Epecially going off the rubric with the flaws as presented by you originally.
Still though I'm willing to hear you out.
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