Author Topic: Necromancer Help.  (Read 6601 times)

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Thine Doom Be Had

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Necromancer Help.
« on: October 09, 2008, 06:36:58 AM »
I'm in a sixth level campaign playing a specialist (possibly focused) necromancer but I don't know what to do CO wise with it. My DM is using a different stat progression than the normal 1 every 4 levels and he'll allow anything so long as it is not too cheesy. What I wanted to do with it is cripple my enemies to death or out right kill them, and maybe every now and then turning them into the best incorporal undead of my level (my DM is letting me use the Necromantic creation feats from K's Tome of Necromancy [Whispers of the Overworld in this case]). I don't have the character sheet on me so I can't give all of the specifics with it, if anything. If you guys have questions, I'll answer them to the best of my ability. Thank's in advance.
4e is a fine game.  It is not, however, the same type of game as 3.5.  For those of us who really liked the type of game 3.5 was, 4e just doesn't cut the mustard.  Yes, I tried playing it.  I was bored.  So was the rest of my gaming group.  I know there are people who love it... good for them.  But in the end, calling 4e a sequel of 3.5 is like calling checkers a sequel of chess.

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TheChrisWaits

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Re: Necromancer Help.
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2008, 08:03:49 AM »
Shadows are one of the best incorporeal things around if you're going that route. Only 75 gp to create, and anything they kill turns into a shadow that's under their control.

My favorite thing to do with a necromancy-focused wizard is uttercold assault. You take Energy Substitution (Cold) and Lord of the Uttercold as your 3rd and 6th level feats. Since most undead you'll be making (skeletons) are immune to cold, all your damage spells will heal them. So you can send them into melee and cast an uttercold fireball that'll deal damage to whatever they're fighting and heal them for half.

Fell animate on an acid splash lets you coup de grace enemies and raise them with a 3rd level spell.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2008, 08:37:54 AM by TheChrisWaits »

AndyJames

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Re: Necromancer Help.
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2008, 08:20:26 AM »
Also, there is a Necromancer sub level in Unearthed Arcana that allows you to replace your familiar with a Human Warrior Skeleton of HD = your level and +1/3 levels Str/Dex and +1/2 levels natural AC. By strict RAW, that Skeleton also gets a stat boost every 4 HD, IIRC.

X-Codes

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Re: Necromancer Help.
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2008, 09:36:46 AM »
Fell animate on an acid splash lets you coup de grace enemies and raise them with a 3rd level spell.
Don't listen to this!  It's a trap!!!

Seriously, in order for this to work the way it's supposed to 100% of the time, you have to find an enemy that can't beat a DC 2 Fortitude save or is at -8 HP, and if they have any Acid resistance at all then forget about it.  Once you get enemies stronger than that, the trick becomes almost completely useless.

Far better spells to use this with are Shocking Grasp and the Lesser Orbs.  Unlike with Acid Splash, it actually deals damage, therefore you actually get a decent Fort save DC and actually have a decent chance of killing them anyway if they succeed on it.  I know it's a whole level higher, but a +1 level adjustment to turn a useless spell into a useful spell would make for a fucking awesome metamagic feat, and here you're practically getting it for free.

kurashu

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Re: Necromancer Help.
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2008, 11:23:03 AM »
Are you already playing this necromancer? You want to go with a cleric instead.

LN Cleric 2/Dread Necromancer 1/Master of Shrouds 10/X 7 (something with full divine casting, or near it at least. I recommend Contemplative). This gives you a pool of turn and rebuke undead (get turn with cleric, rebuke comes with DN). Then pick up Quicken -> DMM(Quicken) or Extend -> Persist Spell -> DMM(Persist) depending on your play style. With contemplative grab undeath domain unless you worship a god that doesn't grant that domain. This gets you extra turn twice which is not +8 but +16 to your turn attempts. Just keep your wisdom high and your charisma kind of high and concentrate the rest on strength.

Shadowhunter

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Re: Necromancer Help.
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2008, 01:54:27 PM »
Or cleric /warlock 1/master of shrouds 10/edritch disciple 7.

Though the build with the dread necromancer is better, it's an alternative if you like the warlock.

It also depends on whether your DM judges that Extra Turning gives more attempts to both the cleric and the DN at the same time.
It should, but could get banned.

Though your DM seems the giving kind, I don't think that's going to be a problem.


One thing to note:
If you're going to use Shadows or other incoporeal undead, Dispel Magic and it's bigger brother is your friend.
Shutting down magic weapons for d3 turns will save your minions many times over.


The problem with crippling necromancy is that most of the really nice stuff are all level 4 spells or above.
Enervation, Shivering Touch, etc.
I'm sure there are viable things at lvl 6, but I can't come up with something at the moment.
[Spoiler]
Quote from: Runestar
the most effective optimization is the one you can actually get away with.  :smirk

Quote from: Vinom
(A group of nerds are called a murder because like crows we are anti-social, like shiny things, and often squack at each other over nothing for hours)

I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/quote]
[/spoiler]

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Negative Zero

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Re: Necromancer Help.
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2008, 03:14:19 PM »
Can anyone remember that one low-level Necromancy spell that does Dex damage with a touch? It was a pretty big amount, too.

Stratovarius

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Re: Necromancer Help.
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2008, 03:16:06 PM »
It's in Frostburn, Shivering Touch maybe?
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Negative Zero

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Re: Necromancer Help.
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2008, 03:40:35 PM »
Yeah, that's it. Thanks. d6 of Dex damage for a level 1. Good stuff.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2008, 03:42:37 PM by Negative Zero »

Thine Doom Be Had

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Re: Necromancer Help.
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2008, 06:02:20 PM »
My favorite thing to do with a necromancy-focused wizard is uttercold assault. You take Energy Substitution (Cold) and Lord of the Uttercold as your 3rd and 6th level feats. Since most undead you'll be making (skeletons) are immune to cold, all your damage spells will heal them. So you can send them into melee and cast an uttercold fireball that'll deal damage to whatever they're fighting and heal them for half.

Lord of the Uttercold is great but doesn't even become useful untill you get Animate Dead. Plus, animating wasn't going to be my main focus. Only draining, incorporal undead because it fits into the crippling theme I want to get going. I'm using shadows for now, but I'll get greater shadows, wraiths/dread wraiths, and spectures eventually and/or others I can't think of right now.

Also, there is a Necromancer sub level in Unearthed Arcana that allows you to replace your familiar with a Human Warrior Skeleton of HD = your level and +1/3 levels Str/Dex and +1/2 levels natural AC. By strict RAW, that Skeleton also gets a stat boost every 4 HD, IIRC.

I had forgotten about this. I hadn't gotten a familiar yet and figured I would replace it with an alternate class feature. I like this, but I don't want to settle on this just yet so I can find other ACFs.

Are you already playing this necromancer? You want to go with a cleric instead.

LN Cleric 2/Dread Necromancer 1/Master of Shrouds 10/X 7 (something with full divine casting, or near it at least. I recommend Contemplative). This gives you a pool of turn and rebuke undead (get turn with cleric, rebuke comes with DN). Then pick up Quicken -> DMM(Quicken) or Extend -> Persist Spell -> DMM(Persist) depending on your play style. With contemplative grab undeath domain unless you worship a god that doesn't grant that domain. This gets you extra turn twice which is not +8 but +16 to your turn attempts. Just keep your wisdom high and your charisma kind of high and concentrate the rest on strength.

I thought about the early Master of Shrouds build, but the early entry is to much of a headache to my DM, so I didn't go that route. My DM is generous with some stuff, but not others. As 6th level characters, we only get 8,000 gold to start with (less than average incase you didn't know). One of the main problems I've been having is running out of spells, so I thought about taking theurge-like classes, hopefully with early entry to make up for that. What do you guys think?

The problem with crippling necromancy is that most of the really nice stuff are all level 4 spells or above.
Enervation, Shivering Touch, etc.

Shivering Touch is actually a 3rd level spell and I already plan on using it.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2008, 12:50:32 AM by Thine Doom Be Had »
4e is a fine game.  It is not, however, the same type of game as 3.5.  For those of us who really liked the type of game 3.5 was, 4e just doesn't cut the mustard.  Yes, I tried playing it.  I was bored.  So was the rest of my gaming group.  I know there are people who love it... good for them.  But in the end, calling 4e a sequel of 3.5 is like calling checkers a sequel of chess.

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Re: Necromancer Help.
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2008, 06:28:26 PM »
One thing to note:
If you're going to use Shadows or other incoporeal undead, Dispel Magic and it's bigger brother is your friend.
Shutting down magic weapons for d3 turns will save your minions many times over.


The problem with crippling necromancy is that most of the really nice stuff are all level 4 spells or above.
Enervation, Shivering Touch, etc.
I'm sure there are viable things at lvl 6, but I can't come up with something at the moment.

If you're just downing magic Weapons, Suppress Magic (MoI) might be better.

Isn't Shivering Touch 3rd level?

Negative Zero

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Re: Necromancer Help.
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2008, 06:31:59 PM »
Yeah. I was talking about the Lesser version. My bad. The full-fledged one does 3d6 dex damage.

ninjarabbit

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Re: Necromancer Help.
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2008, 08:02:03 PM »
Also, there is a Necromancer sub level in Unearthed Arcana that allows you to replace your familiar with a Human Warrior Skeleton of HD = your level and +1/3 levels Str/Dex and +1/2 levels natural AC. By strict RAW, that Skeleton also gets a stat boost every 4 HD, IIRC.

As much as I love the skeletal minion, it's based on your wizard level not your character level.

AndyJames

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Re: Necromancer Help.
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2008, 08:35:56 PM »
Yes. Yes it is class level, not character level. It is a replacement for a familiar and acts accordingly.

kurashu

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Re: Necromancer Help.
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2008, 09:23:07 PM »
I thought about the early Master of Shrouds build, but the early entry is to much of a headache to my DM, so I didn't go that route. My DM is generous with some stuff, but not others. As 6th level characters, we only get 8,000 gold to start with (less than average incase you didn't know). One of the main problems I've been having is running out of spells, so I thought about taking theurge-like classes, hopefully with early entry to make up for that. What do you guys think?

Theurge classes are generally Ackbar sized traps. They seem good, but really they aren't. Exception being an Eldritch Disciple.

Early Entry Master of Shrouds will probably be your best bet since you're considering early entry theurge. Just don't do the duel stacking turn/rebuke attemps and instead do something like cloistered cleric 1/archivist 2/master of shrouds 10/XX 7 and advance archivist instead.

Shadowhunter

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Re: Necromancer Help.
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2008, 10:49:29 PM »
Quote from: me
Or cleric /warlock 1/master of shrouds 10/edritch disciple 7.


Quote from: kurashu
Theurge classes are generally Ackbar sized traps. They seem good, but really they aren't. Exception being an Eldritch Disciple.

I see a pattern here :smirk ;)
[Spoiler]
Quote from: Runestar
the most effective optimization is the one you can actually get away with.  :smirk

Quote from: Vinom
(A group of nerds are called a murder because like crows we are anti-social, like shiny things, and often squack at each other over nothing for hours)

I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/quote]
[/spoiler]

Binder? You're Welcome

Zceryll makes Binders go from tier 3 to tier 2.
Cagemarrow is a Genius

Before giving the advice that build X would be better of with Fist of the Forest, take a long, good look at Primal Living. Twice.

Alastar

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Re: Necromancer Help.
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2008, 12:10:08 AM »
Powerful low level necromancy spells include:

Ray of enfeeblement
Cause fear
(is not in necromancy but is still good) Ray of clumsiness

Level 2:
Scare

Level 3:
Ray of exhaustion
Shivering touch

It's not a very extensive list, and you're better up mixing conjuration and transmutation in there, but it's still pretty sweet:

Think about some things like: ray of clumsiness/enfeeblement + Ray of exhaustion  anything that doesn't have a more than average dexterity or strenght score isn't safe from you.  Heck Shvering touch itself is pretty scary already.

kurashu

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Re: Necromancer Help.
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2008, 02:34:45 AM »
Quote from: me
Or cleric /warlock 1/master of shrouds 10/edritch disciple 7.


Quote from: kurashu
Theurge classes are generally Ackbar sized traps. They seem good, but really they aren't. Exception being an Eldritch Disciple.

I see a pattern here :smirk ;)

That's because ED is easy to enter and easier to abuse the heck out of. Warlock 5/Binder 1/Ur-Priest 2/Hellfire Warlock 3/Eldritch Disicple 9. Case in point. Warlock casting: 17, 10 levels of Ur (9th level spells) and some minor binding to counteract hellfire's down side. Glaivelock & DMM(Quicken) that stuff and you're set.

Thine Doom Be Had

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Re: Necromancer Help.
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2008, 03:55:46 AM »
Theurge classes are generally Ackbar sized traps. They seem good, but really they aren't. Exception being an Eldritch Disciple.

The advice for these divine characters is good, but the problem is we have an NPC Cleric in the party played by the DM. Now I might be able to do this with the Archivist but I wanted to be a wizard, because I like them.
I have some sick facination with Theurge classes and because of this, I try finding tricks to get me into theuge classes earlier than expected. Like using the Illumian feat Improved Sigil (Krau) to get into Mystic Theurge at level 4. I kinda wanted to do something with the Ultimate Magus but I didn't know if it could be optimized or not. Is it possible to optimize effectively with a Specialist/Focused Specialist Necromancer?
4e is a fine game.  It is not, however, the same type of game as 3.5.  For those of us who really liked the type of game 3.5 was, 4e just doesn't cut the mustard.  Yes, I tried playing it.  I was bored.  So was the rest of my gaming group.  I know there are people who love it... good for them.  But in the end, calling 4e a sequel of 3.5 is like calling checkers a sequel of chess.

JaronK

AndyJames

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Re: Necromancer Help.
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2008, 05:57:40 AM »
Heighten Spell + Versatile Spellcaster can get you into a dual caster class at level 3 if you meet the skill pre-requisites.