The Pirates

[X-Codes]

Sorry for posting here, but I was bored and saw an unexplained explosion of posting on another thread, so I decided to take a peek.

AJ, you're demonstrating a fundamental lack of understanding of the tier system.  It's not linear at all.  Tier 1 is GOD, meaning a class capable of doing anything that any specialist of any kind can do.  It's a dramatic step up from Tier 2 where you have a character capable of doing some things really well and plenty of other things not so well or at all.

Furthermore, it's arguable how overpowered Feral is when applied to 1 HD creatures.  You get a minor speed boost, lot of AC, some re-arranged stats, low fast healing, and a lot of barely-useful abilities.  In other words, it's convenient at best.  Considering the -2 Dex and all the extra AC being Natural Armor, it actually makes the character obscenely more vulnerable to stuff like Enervation (a spell that my character will have... and yours too, I might note) and Ray of Stupidity.  You know, all that Tier 1 stuff.  In the end, all he is is a charger.  Granted he's a really good charger, but still just a charger.  Really only Tier 2 if there is no Tier 1, otherwise everyone would have something to neuter it like a stray dog.  Hell, there's probably going to be quite a few people that can do that anyway.

On the other hand, that Cleric/DWK you wanted to play is the theoretical Tier 0, meaning it has a high degree of probability to just utterly crush the entire campaign without effort.  Just because you're voluntarily reducing it to Tier 2 by making bad spell choices doesn't make it any less powerful, because all it takes is you changing your mind about how you're going to play your character and *bang* you win the game.  A lot of the same can be said about that Dread Necromancer/Full-Casting Rainbow Servant you're talking about playing.  Just because it's a Dread Necromancer doesn't make it Tier 1, because you're using a loophole to spontaneously cast the entire Cleric spell list, which is just about the single feature of the Cleric class that just so happens to be Tier 1.

Is it a double standard?  Probably.  You know what?  3.5 is imbalanced and needs a double standard.  Grow up and stop crying that you're not allowed to play a character 50 times more powerful than everyone else.

[AndyJames]

I rest my case about assumptions. I knew that X-Codes joining was going to be trouble.

Anyways, that's fine. I'll pull out. See ya.

[VennDygrem]

This is what I was talking about. AJ's playing with a bunch of people who are used to playing at higher levels of optimization, in a lower-optimized game, and it may be difficult to discern how to maintain the desired level of optimization. This doesn't, however, mean we have to play at tier 1 optimization, but it also means we've got to hold back on full optimization.

On the other hand, AJ's also got a double-standard going. He's complaining templates that are "well-known for being overpowered for their LA", when he's also planning on taking class levels that are "well-known for being overpowered."

There's no reason to get into a pi**ing competition. This is a game! Can we try to have fun?

[X-Codes]

There's no reason to get into a pi**ing competition. This is a game! Can we try to have fun?

AJ just wants a reason to leave.  I gave it to him, life goes on.  The "King Arthur" group even has 2 people without him, so him leaving still only has a minor impact on the game as a whole.  Now lets go have fun.

[VennDygrem]

There's no reason to get into a pi**ing competition. This is a game! Can we try to have fun?

AJ just wants a reason to leave.  I gave it to him, life goes on.  The "King Arthur" group even has 2 people without him, so him leaving still only has a minor impact on the game as a whole.  Now lets go have fun.

I still think he should have waited until tomorrow mid-day to voice his concerns to Strato, but what'll ya do. 

[AndyJames]

On the other hand, AJ's also got a double-standard going. He's complaining templates that are "well-known for being overpowered for their LA", when he's also planning on taking class levels that are "well-known for being overpowered."

The difference is that you can choose to have spells which are not overpowered. Evocations, for example. You cannot make Fast Healing 5 not overpowered. Nor free Improved Grab, Rend, Pounce, etc. Once they are within charging range, it is over for the target.

The reason why I knew X-Codes would be trouble is because he has had it in for me for a while now, and in fact was tracking me through the forum to send in snide remarks. I guess I gave him the excuse he was looking for this time around.

Anyway, this is why I don't want to play in this game because I foresee a lot of this type of arguments further down the line. I have had experience with groups like this (see my description of some of these people in the appropriate threads) before. The results are never pretty. It would be worse with X-Codes around adding his snide 2 cents every time.

[X-Codes]

Anyway, this is why I don't want to play in this game because I foresee a lot of this type of arguments further down the line. I have had experience with groups like this (see my description of some of these people in the appropriate threads) before. The results are never pretty. It would be worse with X-Codes around adding his snide 2 cents every time.

You're welcome to believe whatever you want, but when you start lying about other people to their associates you're begging for a smackdown.  If you're going to insist on badmouthing me, do everyone a favor and make a DoW thread so we can remove this tripe from threads that are going to be... you know... important.

[VennDygrem]

Anyway, this is why I don't want to play in this game because I foresee a lot of this type of arguments further down the line. I have had experience with groups like this (see my description of some of these people in the appropriate threads) before. The results are never pretty. It would be worse with X-Codes around adding his snide 2 cents every time.

You're welcome to believe whatever you want, but when you start lying about other people to their associates you're begging for a smackdown.  If you're going to insist on badmouthing me, do everyone a favor and make a DoW thread so we can remove this tripe from threads that are going to be... you know... important.

AJ, I'm not going to stop you from leaving if you want to. The last thing a player should do is stay in a game they don't think they'll have fun in. I may not agree with everything you say, but I can understand some of your concerns. I still believe you can play without crossing paths with our group, or that you can see what Strato says tomorrow, but your decisions are up to you. Good luck with whatever path you choose.

[AfterCrescent]

Gotta agree with everyone?! At least on some part.

As a moderator: Agree with X-Codes, both of you need to grow the fuck up. Either DoW it or shut up. There's not a third option, btw.

In regards to this game: Fast Healing 5 is NOT overpowered at the level it becomes relevant. It's not. However, here's the point.

Is a Feral Blender strong? Yes (physically). Is it multipurpose? No. It's a charge. It's a damn good charger. It gets a 100% on Charging and a 0% on everything else. What does that average to? Maybe ~50%? Now compare that to a Cleric with SHIT spell choices. They're a ~30% average (pulling numbers out of my ass). So yeah, this 'ideal' cleric may be weak. But what happens the NEXT DAY! It suddenly becomes a 100% average. When you compare that to the charger WHO CAN'T CHANGE, you have an issue.

The issue is versatility. The blender can't be much more than a blender. The cleric can do whatever the fuck it wants. Yes, you can say "But I won't do X". And that's fine, but stopping the possibility of doing X saves a lot of stress for everyone. Think about as insurance against "rocks fall, you die." I mean if you're fine with the warning that you will be killed outright by a hammergun if you break the tier, then my vote is to go ahead and play whatever crazy combo you want.

[X-Codes]

In regards to this game: Fast Healing 5 is NOT overpowered at the level it becomes relevant. It's not. However, here's the point.

Isn't it Fast Healing 2?  I thought the Feral template was one of those rare ones that based abilities off monster HD.

[Rufei]

Huh. Well, I for one am not a good optimizer (or rather someone who can optimize tier 1 at all), so if anything AJ would have that handicap. Now, I'm playing something that's an intimidate-bot (with some complimentary pouncing ability) but I'm fully aware that all it takes is a little immunity to fear to stop that (a little arguing about rules can fix that, namely how fear, mind affecting =/= fear). Does that mean I will be owned in combat? Probably. Should I quit because of that? Probably not.

Yes, it's nice to be all powerful, but if everyone's going to butt heads, I'd rather play something like an FPS. There is a different, if not interesting experience playing as someone weaker in terms of power (optimization). We aren't really here to play a cockfight, so everyone should calm down.

Weakness is interesting too. You don't have to be god.

[VennDygrem]

Boy, Strato's gonna have a huge mess to come back to when he gets back here.  :-\

[AfterCrescent]

Isn't it Fast Healing 2?  I thought the Feral template was one of those rare ones that based abilities off monster HD.

It is, although iirc, Strato houseruled it to be based off HD. I'm okay with either ruling.

Boy, Strato's gonna have a huge mess to come back to when he gets back here.  :-\

Hah. Yeah.

[EjoThims]

Now, I'm playing something that's an intimidate-bot

You too?

Isn't it Fast Healing 2?  I thought the Feral template was one of those rare ones that based abilities off monster HD.

It's not clear if it bases off total HD or just monster/racial, and Strato said to base it off total.

[Rufei]

Huh. Ejo, I'm going off of a Barbarian 1/Zhentarim Fighter 9/Warshaper 2/Exotic Weapon Master 2/Ronin 2 kind of build. Half-Nymph's got one of the best racial abilities for fear (a step up in fear for free per turn for a minute that resets the timer each time the target fails).

The build is meant to also deal damage as a back up (aka not depend on intimidate completely), so I've got pounce + Iaijutsu Focus (if Fighter gets this as a class skill... I'd be surprised if it didn't) + a good amount of Str damage with a katana x2 with EWMaster (if we get that high in level). But yeah, Intimidate as a swift action is sexy. Unfortunately, you can't do that with the CW Samurai's ability to intimidate the fearless (according to Dead Levels II).

[Stratovarius]

Alright, this got rather interesting while I was away.

Lots of stuff to go through:

To AJ: My complaint about a cleric is what AC pointed out. Regardless of which spells you pick *today*, if the boss turns out to be too hard for you, you come back tomorrow with enervation, tweaked SoD/Ss, and obliterate him. Doubly so if this is Dweomerkeeper. AC, is, at best a low-touch AC charger. If I ever want to kill him, I have a low level necro lob Spectral Hand and Shivering Touch, and his PC is a drooling no-Dex heap on the ground. He's great if he gets to go first, but what's he going to do against an NPC with levitate, or a basic SoD spell? He's just not as good, especially once you get higher in levels.

Also, as to Ejo's template, I told him he got no flight, no vision, and just the stats and the 5' fear aura. Lolth-touched is also a no-go, mostly since Lolth just doesn't exist in Arhosa. Still haven't decided on the deities, however.

Another thing is that you parties are, as requested, at roughly opposite ends of the map. AC/Venn/Ejo are outside the Arhosian Wall at the north, while Arthurians have a free hand to build a kingdom down south, without interference from other PCs for quite some time, as I think the Cult is based out of Marleath. Most groups will likely not contact one another till level 7-9ish (I presume), and each will have done a fair bit of world and nation building by then.

And as a final point, no one is perfect as a DM. However, it does work better to remain calm when discussing points, rather than becoming emotional. Makes your points come across in a clearer fashion, and one more likely to be taken seriously.

[VennDygrem]

Lolth-touched is also a no-go, mostly since Lolth just doesn't exist in Arhosa. Still haven't decided on the deities, however.

I figured as much. I'm still undecided exactly on how best to proceed with my character. We're very melee-oriented, mostly shielded by armor, so as Strato says vulnerable to touch-attacks, etc. I could thus switch to, say, a swordsage, maybe add a couple levels of SWV ranger, but that doesn't exactly round-out the group. Also, since the template is a non-issue, half-drow is unnecessary to the core concept, though still adds flavor (was planning to do Deepwyrm Half-Drow anyway).

What I really need is to come up with something fun to play. :/

Thoughts? Suggestions?

[AfterCrescent]

Well what archtypical role do you usually enjoy playing?

[VennDygrem]

Well what archtypical role do you usually enjoy playing?

I've got the most experience with sneaky characters, and have enjoyed melee-heavy characters (usually with supernatural extras), or multi-role ones. The only straight-spellcaster I've played has been a Beguiler, which is fun, but highly vulnerable in combat and the main path with that is Shadowcraft Mage, which puts it a bit above the play-tier we're going for. I'm actually more used to playing classes that are sub-par and making them more effective (through feat-choices, race options, equipment, etc. ie: I've been able to make a Dragon Shaman from fifth-wheel into a highly-useful member of the party, or changeling monk/warshaper; However, those may have only been in relation to those particular campaigns).

I'm just continuing to read through handbooks and build collections looking for ideas. There are a couple that might let me get close to what I need, so we'll see.

[AfterCrescent]

Well feel free to bounce ideas off us here.

Ranged support could be useful, via swift hunter builds or some manner of warlock... (Just throwing ideas your way)