Author Topic: Shapechanger  (Read 14404 times)

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Kuroimaken

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Re: Shapechanger
« Reply #40 on: October 14, 2008, 09:13:17 PM »
Quote
Then again, all this has already been said... I just felt like reiterating it since I happen to LOVE wildshape, and hate dying/being knocked unconscious.

Doesn't everyone?
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VennDygrem

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Re: Shapechanger
« Reply #41 on: October 14, 2008, 09:27:02 PM »
VennDygrem basically said everything I wanted to mention.

The glaring issue I have with this Shapechanger is that chances are, the character would be basically useless until level 4. It can't defend itself, and it would drag down the rest of the party as they had to heal it every few rounds while fighting off enemies and defending themselves as well...

I don't know anything about balancing, but I still feel that armor should be permissible to wear, as long as the Shifter is in its normal form. If it changes into a different form, the armor better be taken off or enchanted so that it'll meld into a new form, but the armor bonus doesn't count or something. At least, while the Shifter is just trying to survive to level 4, it can not die every time it comes into some hostile encounter.

Plus, with armor, the Shapechanger could focus on more important stats (instead of investing precious, precious points into DEX and STR, which will just prove to be useless later on as the shapechanger changes form and gains those bonuses from creatures).

Then again, all this has already been said... I just felt like reiterating it since I happen to LOVE wildshape, and hate dying/being knocked unconscious.  :D

Now, I believe that given that the Druid can wear up to Medium armor (though not metal), and has spells and wildshape (albeit losing armor-wearing ability unless wearing special magic items), the Shapechanger should be allowed to wear Light armor with no penalty. Medium or heavier armor should negate the Fast Movement, Woodland Stride, Trackless Step, and Swift Tracker abilities.

Str and Dex aren't useless, they're just of less and less use as the Shapechanger gains levels and creature forms to assume. Both are useful for skills when not in shapechanged form. Characters in this class should be viable outside of wildshape form even at higher levels, even if severely hampered. What happens when you're caught in an anti-magic field? You should still be able to nock an arrow, even if you won't be nearly as effective as when wildshaped.

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Re: Shapechanger
« Reply #42 on: October 14, 2008, 10:37:26 PM »
So, everything I've gotten by reading through is that the class is balanced, albeit underpowered.

Notes I've taken:
  • Allow armor: Light armor mainly and allow fast movement to work in this.
  • Natural Weapons: Maybe? I like the idea of choosing a type of natural attack instead of saying, "You get claws, deal with it." 2 claws, a bite, gore, tentacle, a tail or something else.
  • More useful outside of wildshape: natural weapons and more weapon choices play into this.

As for knowledge checks to know creatures: the only rules for that I've seen is the awful "DC = HD" rule. Wouldn't be too hard to assign numbers to how common a creature is. Something like Common = 10, Uncommon = 20, Rare = 30, Unqiue = DC set by DM.

Elennsar

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Re: Shapechanger
« Reply #43 on: October 14, 2008, 10:40:28 PM »
A couple thoughts:

Light armor as permited sounds good, as do claws or a bite or something similar. Some things might be more useful than others, so that's a thing to watch out for.

Is DC 30 = rare hard enough? That is, would the actual level of skill needed to do that be sufficient to represent "only experts (as opposed to "just anyone") can recognize this?

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veekie

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Re: Shapechanger
« Reply #44 on: October 14, 2008, 10:49:58 PM »
I still strongly advocate the use of the Shapeshift variant for this though, but with more forms and options available. Gives this class some stats it actually cares about(with physicals augmented, not replaced), and being able to change shape on demand rather than having a maximum number of long duration shifts per day.
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VennDygrem

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Re: Shapechanger
« Reply #45 on: October 14, 2008, 11:02:17 PM »
So, everything I've gotten by reading through is that the class is balanced, albeit underpowered.

Notes I've taken:
  • Allow armor: Light armor mainly and allow fast movement to work in this.
  • Natural Weapons: Maybe? I like the idea of choosing a type of natural attack instead of saying, "You get claws, deal with it." 2 claws, a bite, gore, tentacle, a tail or something else.
  • More useful outside of wildshape: natural weapons and more weapon choices play into this.

As for knowledge checks to know creatures: the only rules for that I've seen is the awful "DC = HD" rule. Wouldn't be too hard to assign numbers to how common a creature is. Something like Common = 10, Uncommon = 20, Rare = 30, Unqiue = DC set by DM.

I'd say the DC would be set by the DM as they see fit, using current examples for guidelines.

As for the other factors- Usually classes without armor proficiency are ones that can effectively simulate it. Also, light armors are generally simple things that just about anyone can wear easily.

For Natural Weapons- Choose one from the list, change it as a standard action, maybe? Would fit the Shapechanger flavor. You also likely wouldn't need to worry about adding other weapon proficiencies.

If you'd prefer not adding light armor proficiency, possibly a defensive bonus like the offensive bonus options in the natural weapon ability.
You could also avoid excessive abuse of these low level abilities by saying that a player chooses one each of the weapon and defense at dawn. Just another thought.
---
The problem with the shapeshift variant is that it doesn't apply well to other creature types, and generally the only stat that it increases is strength. There would have to be some way to apply it to a more expansive and versatile selection of creature types. Shapeshift is easy to apply to animals and elementals, since it's generic enough and there's not all that much variation between them. But things like Humanoids, aberrations, fey, etc. are hugely different between each creature.

I do enjoy the notion of having Shapechanging abilities from level 1, and keeping things balanced. I'm just not sure how it would work.
----
Alternatively, half the supernatural special qualities most creatures seem to get include the special senses the class could obtain through an altered Manifest Senses class feature. *shrug*
« Last Edit: October 14, 2008, 11:07:52 PM by VennDygrem »

veekie

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Re: Shapechanger
« Reply #46 on: October 14, 2008, 11:20:10 PM »
Quote
The problem with the shapeshift variant is that it doesn't apply well to other creature types, and generally the only stat that it increases is strength. There would have to be some way to apply it to a more expansive and versatile selection of creature types. Shapeshift is easy to apply to animals and elementals, since it's generic enough and there's not all that much variation between them. But things like Humanoids, aberrations, fey, etc. are hugely different between each creature.

Include a table similar to the Astral Construct menus or the revised Alter Self/Polymorph spell over in spells, that would give you a central list of balanced special abilities and stat boosts to access, rather than monster manual dumpster diving. Likewise, when I mentioned more forms, this includes buffs to non-str stats to reflect not being an animal/elemental form.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

VennDygrem

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Re: Shapechanger
« Reply #47 on: October 15, 2008, 12:18:12 AM »
Basing the ability on Shapeshift variant has several benefits, such as swift-action shifting, shifting at level 1, unlimited shifting, etc. It's much less abusable than wildshaping and polymorph.
Adapting the abilities of this class based on that variant, though, would likely be difficult. What abilities do different versions get, at what levels does the class get them, and how do you deal with the other class features which become redundant (for instance fast wildshape, or  Multishape and perfect wildshape- the class's capstone features)- do they get replaced with other features? Also, how closely based on shapeshift is it? The original variant states that all equipment melds into the new shape and stops functioning, you can't talk at all, etc. Those sorts of things are assuming an animal shape, of course, but there are several details that need to be taken into account.

I'm sure if you're interested in going down that path, there's someone up to the challenge.

veekie

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Re: Shapechanger
« Reply #48 on: October 15, 2008, 08:55:12 AM »
Ok, bit by bit then, for the level 20th capstone, you can make it such that the Shapechanger can reshape his gear(armor, mostly, I think) to fit his form or simply absorb magical gear.

While at the same time, his regular equipment continues functioning while shapeshifted normally if the new form can wear them. The ability bonuses being enhancement bonuses, would still overlap with stat boosting gear of course, until he gains Enhanced Wildshape.

Fast Wild Shape could turn the swift into a free action(not too sure on the balance of this) or allowing them to shift an additional time in the same round with the same swift action(ala multispell), allowing them to change shape at the end of turn. On top of this, the level 19th power can instead allow them to alter their form as an immediate action.

The various wildshape improvements, along with Manifest Senses, Improved Wildshape and Greater Wildshape can be replaced with ability(like astral construct) menu access. Of course, I'm kinda busy-ish IRL, so someone interested can probably do something before I get around to this.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

VennDygrem

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Re: Shapechanger
« Reply #49 on: October 15, 2008, 10:31:07 AM »
Ok, bit by bit then, for the level 20th capstone, you can make it such that the Shapechanger can reshape his gear(armor, mostly, I think) to fit his form or simply absorb magical gear.

While at the same time, his regular equipment continues functioning while shapeshifted normally if the new form can wear them. The ability bonuses being enhancement bonuses, would still overlap with stat boosting gear of course, until he gains Enhanced Wildshape.

Fast Wild Shape could turn the swift into a free action(not too sure on the balance of this) or allowing them to shift an additional time in the same round with the same swift action(ala multispell), allowing them to change shape at the end of turn. On top of this, the level 19th power can instead allow them to alter their form as an immediate action.

The various wildshape improvements, along with Manifest Senses, Improved Wildshape and Greater Wildshape can be replaced with ability(like astral construct) menu access. Of course, I'm kinda busy-ish IRL, so someone interested can probably do something before I get around to this.

What I meant about the faster shapeshifting is not making it faster than a swift action. That's plenty fast as it is. The issue would be replacing it with an equally useful ability.

Perhaps the OP or someone else can offer some insight.

Again, I'm all for balancing powerful abilities, though I'd steer clear of overly complex workarounds, as well.

VennDygrem

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Re: Shapechanger
« Reply #50 on: October 16, 2008, 01:58:10 PM »
Ok, so since nobody else is biting, I figure I might as well take a stab at this whole balancing wild shape.
If anyone can list any of the known issues with Wildshape as it stands now, that'd be a great help in getting this off the ground.

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Re: Shapechanger
« Reply #51 on: October 16, 2008, 04:36:29 PM »
I like the astral construct idea at low levels before converting to full shapeshifting...
any reason why that can't scale up with the actual AC power chain of psions while tossing alternate form stuff along the way as well?

I"m willing to work on it until I'm killed or we find someone better.

VennDygrem

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Re: Shapechanger
« Reply #52 on: October 16, 2008, 05:16:41 PM »
I like the astral construct idea at low levels before converting to full shapeshifting...
any reason why that can't scale up with the actual AC power chain of psions while tossing alternate form stuff along the way as well?

I"m willing to work on it until I'm killed or we find someone better.

Hmm, how would that work, exactly? Just start off as:
Lesser Shapeshift (su): Choose combination from list.
which at a later level is replaced by:
Greater Shapeshift (su): Change shape as per Alternate Form ability, except as noted below, etc. etc. ?

Or rather, building on the idea of the morphic weapons/defenses at level one, Lesser Shapeshift could be as I suggested before. choose a natural weapon, defense, and/or ability until full wildshape or similar shapeshifting function kicks in, granting certain benefits of any assumed forms and also the ability to retain the benefits from lesser shapeshifting? "Master Shapeshifting" could entail warshaper/MoMF-type ability to combine features of different forms.

Of course, there's a plethora of ways to handle this...

Wildshape is known for being incredibly powerful, but the normal limits on the Shapeshift variant leaves something to be desired. I like the idea of being able to masquerade as different creature types other than just animals or nature forms. (For instance, I was hoping to use this or a similar class for a campaign using an evil character, and certain monster forms could be fun to utilize.)

Kuroimaken

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Re: Shapechanger
« Reply #53 on: October 16, 2008, 05:30:38 PM »
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Ok, bit by bit then, for the level 20th capstone, you can make it such that the Shapechanger can reshape his gear(armor, mostly, I think) to fit his form or simply absorb magical gear.

There is an armor special quality to replicate this already, and it isn't VERY expensive (+2 bonus equivalent, methinks). This should probably come earlier, like 10th level. Our buddy needs a REAL capstone.
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Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
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My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

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VennDygrem

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Re: Shapechanger
« Reply #54 on: October 16, 2008, 05:58:33 PM »
Quote
Ok, bit by bit then, for the level 20th capstone, you can make it such that the Shapechanger can reshape his gear(armor, mostly, I think) to fit his form or simply absorb magical gear.

There is an armor special quality to replicate this already, and it isn't VERY expensive (+2 bonus equivalent, methinks). This should probably come earlier, like 10th level. Our buddy needs a REAL capstone.

Beastskin armor allows you to expend an extra use of wildshape to retain the armor, and is a +2 bonus. Easily obtainable much earlier than 20th level.

Beside that, a Wilding clasp costs 4000gp and:
Quote
can be attached to any item
worn on the body. When so worn, a clasp
prevents the worn item from melding into
your new form when you use wild shape
(as long as the item could reasonably be
worn by the new form). Thus, the item
remains fully functional and can be used
normally in your new form.

This item also makes "Enhanced Wildshape" less spectacular, since you get to keep enhancement bonuses to all stats. You could just buy a belt of magnificence and secure it with a wilding clasp. Still, it could save you 4000gp.

kurashu

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Re: Shapechanger
« Reply #55 on: October 18, 2008, 01:29:29 PM »
So far, here's what I have for added defense and offense.

Quote
Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Shapechangers are proficient with the dagger, sickle, club, shortspear, longspear, quarterstaff, spear, scimitar, trident, falchion, scythe, net, longbow and short bow. Shapechangers are proficient with light and medium armor.

Nature's Chosen (Ex): At dawn of each day, a shapechanger may choose to grow a natural weapon. She may choose two claws, a slam, a tail, a gore attack or two tentacles. These natural weapons deal damage for the size of the shapechanger. A shapechanger can not change this choice for the day, but at the dawn of the next day she may choose a different weapon or the same one. She does not have to choose the same weapon everyday.

Tough Skin (Ex): At 1st level, a shapechanger gains a +2 natural armor bonus. This bonus increases by +1 for every 5 levels of shapechanger she has (+3 at 5th level, +4 at 10th level, et cetera). This bonus stacks with natural armor from other sources.

My problem with Tough Skin is that I don't want it stacking with wildshape but low-level wildshapes typically have low natural armor (except for a few forms). Also: is there a chart or table for damage dealt by the various natural attacks (tail, slam, claw, gore, tentacle) just to be thorough.

So, further comments and criticisms?

VennDygrem

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Re: Shapechanger
« Reply #56 on: October 18, 2008, 05:50:41 PM »
Page 296 of the Monster Manual has a table showing average damage for "slam or tentacle, bite, claw or sting, gore or tail" attacks by size.

I'm not sure the Shapechanger needs medium armor, but I suppose it can't hurt. Also on that note, since the class was developed from the Druid as a base, does it have the same rules against wearing metal armor? And by the same note, does a part of its alignment have to be neutral?

If you want Tough Skin to be useful at lower levels but less-so at later ones, just drop the increase. By later levels that bonus to natural armor won't really affect much, especially since later forms can have much better defenses. Otherwise, you might still consider dropping medium armor, since they get a natural armor bonus that increases (a Shapechanger could be wearing Mithral Fullplate and have a natural armor bonus that keeps increasing. Who needs a tank?). I might also change the text to read "At 1st level, a shapechanger's natural armor bonus improves by 2 (If the Shapechanger has no natural armor, consider their natural armor bonus to be 0)."

Elennsar

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Re: Shapechanger
« Reply #57 on: October 18, 2008, 05:59:06 PM »
Since both of those are fluff (and rather inexplicable fluff, since druids can use at least one metal weapon...the scimitar...without any trouble), I would hope not.
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VennDygrem

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Re: Shapechanger
« Reply #58 on: October 18, 2008, 07:02:05 PM »
Since both of those are fluff (and rather inexplicable fluff, since druids can use at least one metal weapon...the scimitar...without any trouble), I would hope not.

I think it has more to do with their culture, being a people who live off the land and are generally simpler technology-wise and more in-tune with the natural world. That said, I'm pretty sure scimitars are more complex to make than daggers, and don't have any connection to nature. :lol

Elennsar

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Re: Shapechanger
« Reply #59 on: October 18, 2008, 07:41:15 PM »
That's just it. Scimitars are neither nature connected in any real symbolic sort of way or practical way.

Honestly, the druidic ethos is bizzare.

So...if the shapeshifter gets a limited set of weapons (instead of the simple and martial or simple and a couple exceptions or whatever), I really hope it is based on something coherent.

Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



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