Author Topic: Shapechanger  (Read 14400 times)

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RobbyPants

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Re: Shapechanger
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2008, 01:28:47 PM »
Gotcha. Still, at lower levels the dice have a bigger precedence. I may be wrong, but I think the Fighter ith a Greatsword still has bigger damage than a level 1 Shapechanger with claws.
Yeah, the greatsword guy is certainly stronger (barring a really high Str score).  That's ultimately why I agreed it's not broken.  If compared to the monk, it's in every way more powerful.  Although, I don't think the monk is a good metric...  :smirk

Still, just to look at numbers, we can compare the claw guy to the greatsword guy.

The claw guys gets two attacks for 1d4 each.  This will average 5 damage.  The greatsword guy gets one attack at 2d6 damage, averaging 7 damage.  So far, the greatsword guy is ahead.

Where the claw guy catches up is from getting his Str mod to each attack, for a total of x2 Str mod, whereas the greatsword guy only adds x3/2 Str mod.  So, basically, if the Str mod is less than 4, the greatsword guy comes out ahead.  If it's exactly 4, they tie.  Once it gets above 4, the claw guys comes out ahead.  Of course, barbarian raging will throw things in favor of the greatsword guy (if he's capable of rage).

Given 1st level characters, unless you're playing an orc or half-orc with a natural 18 Str, the claw guy will still be even with or behind the greatsword guy.  The most extreme example I can think of is with an orc with a 22 Str (+6 mod).  The claw guy sits at 2d4+12 (17 average) and the greatsword guy sits at 2d6+9 (16 average).

My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Kuroimaken

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Re: Shapechanger
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2008, 02:54:51 PM »
And even so it's still by a single point.  :smirk
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


RobbyPants

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Re: Shapechanger
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2008, 03:37:22 PM »
Oh yeah.  You would need to have a very high Str mod to have much of an advantage, and by that point, the greatsword guy probably has iterative attacks.  Basically, the claw guy's total Str mod will only be 1/2 the Str mod ahead.  So if they both had a Str 30 (+10 mod), we'd be looking at a difference of five points (three once you factor in the weapon damage).

So, the long and the short of it, I agree that it's not that broken to have two 1d4 claw attacks.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Kuroimaken

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Re: Shapechanger
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2008, 06:38:45 PM »
Quote
So, the long and the short of it, I agree that it's not that broken to have two 1d4 claw attacks.

Well, even if we roll in Improved Natural Weapon, we're still talking about a feat investment. Claw guy has to make more rolls, too.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


RobbyPants

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Re: Shapechanger
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2008, 12:45:26 PM »
Claw guy has to make more rolls, too.
More attack rolls?  Well, lets take a look at some numbers:

Fun math inside:
[spoiler]________________________________

If we have a 50-50 chance to hit, then the greatsword guy has two outcomes:
- full hit (50%)
- no hit (50%)
So the average is (100% dmg * 0.5) + (0% dmg * 0.5)  = 50% damage expected per round

The claw guy has four outcomes:
- full hit (25%)
- half hit (25%)
- half hit (25%)
- no hit (25%)
So the average is (100% dmg * 0.25) + (50% dmg * 0.25) + (50% dmg * 0.25) + (0% dmg * 0.25)= 50% damage expected per round

In this case, both average out to the same: half maximum damage expected per round.

________________________________

Now, lets look at if you could hit 80% of the time.  The greatsword guy has two outcomes:
- full hit (80%)
- no hit (20%)
So the average is (100% dmg * 0.8 ) + (0% dmg * 0.2)  = 80% damage expected per round

The claw guy has four outcomes:
- full hit (64%)
- half hit (16%)
- half hit (16%)
- no hit (4%)
So the average is (100% dmg * 0.64) + (50% dmg * 0.16) + (50% dmg * 0.16) + (0% dmg * 0.04)= 80% damage expected per round

In this case, both average out to the same: 80% maximum damage expected per round.

________________________________

Now, lets look at if you could hit 30% of the time.  The greatsword guy has two outcomes:
- full hit (30%)
- no hit (70%)
So the average is (100% dmg * 0.3) + (0% dmg * 0.7)  = 30% damage expected per round

The claw guy has four outcomes:
- full hit (9%)
- half hit (21%)
- half hit (21%)
- no hit (49%)
So the average is (100% dmg * 0.09) + (50% dmg * 0.21) + (50% dmg * 0.21) + (0% dmg * 0.49)= 30% damage expected per round

In this case, both average out to the same: 30% maximum damage expected per round.[/spoiler]

________________________________

End result:
So, any way you split it, if you have the same base chance to hit with either your single greatsword or your pair of claws, you have the same expected percentage of your damage per round.  Even if you're rolling two rolls, on average, you will do the same.  Sure, half the time, you only get one claw in, but you only fully miss 25% of the time, where-as the guy with the guy with the single attack misses 50% of the time.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Kuroimaken

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Re: Shapechanger
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2008, 02:16:48 AM »
Quote
So, any way you split it, if you have the same base chance to hit with either your single greatsword or your pair of claws, you have the same expected percentage of your damage per round.  Even if you're rolling two rolls, on average, you will do the same.  Sure, half the time, you only get one claw in, but you only fully miss 25% of the time, where-as the guy with the guy with the single attack misses 50% of the time.

So basically the claw guy sacrifices power for accuracy (hits 75% of the time, only deals "full" damage 25% of the time), while the greatsword guy does the opposite (hits 50% of the time, but always at "full" damage).

Doesn't seem like a bad trade-off to me. In fact it barely feels like a trade-off at all.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


RobbyPants

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Re: Shapechanger
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2008, 07:23:44 PM »
Even moreso, the claw guy gets the benifit of switching targets mid round if he needs.  However, there are two big things not mentioned in my math above:

1) Any per attack damage increases or reductions will change things a lot.  Getting Sneak Attack per claw is better, but dealing with damage reduction per claw is worse.

2) At BAB +6 the greatsword guy gets an iterative attack and the claw guy doesn't.  That completely changes the game.  Still, I suppose there are ways to get additional claw attacks, so an enterprising player can still be pretty scary (think King of Smack).
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Elennsar

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Re: Shapechanger
« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2008, 07:25:42 PM »
As a surface impression, I would say "the greatsword guy" has an advantage (purely as a matter of claw vs. greatsword), but the claw guy can, if he has the right set of stuff with it, do better.

Is it possible to use a shield (including a buckler) with the claws?
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



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RobbyPants

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Re: Shapechanger
« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2008, 12:01:43 AM »
Is it possible to use a shield (including a buckler) with the claws?
Yes.  The Improved Buckler Defense feat (Complete Warrior) lets you use a buckler in your off-hand and apply it's shield bonus to your AC.  The only drawback is the standard -1 penalty you take to your off-hand attacks for having the buckler strapped on in the first place.

Also, note that you could simply use an Animated Shield (of any type) and keep both hands free.  Thus, you could claw with all of your hands and have a shield floating around.

Both of the above reasons are why almost no one runs a "true" sword & board character.  Why limit yourself to a one-handed weapon when you can use a two-hander and a shield?  It's called having your cake and eating it too.  This is why I wanted to change the Animated Shield in the Equipemnt thread.  I haven't touched Improved Buckler Defense yet.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Elennsar

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Re: Shapechanger
« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2008, 12:06:10 AM »
I can grudgingly live with IBD if small and large shields are useful enough that if you want a true sword and board, you go for that without discomfort.

Animated shields...need to die. They make S&B into "THF plus shield", which is a rotten idea.
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

RobbyPants

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Re: Shapechanger
« Reply #30 on: October 13, 2008, 10:01:05 AM »
I have another version here if you want to look at it.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Elennsar

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Re: Shapechanger
« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2008, 10:07:53 AM »
Other than finding percentile dice to be the most obnoxious things ever (honestly, I'm not all that comfortable, on tabletop, with anything other than a d6. Other die types are strange and unnatural. Online, its irrelevant. No, this isn't an arguement for using just d6. It's a statement of a personality foible.)...

I think that's a bit better. But it still has two problems:

1) 20% chance that a Perfect Attack misses. What the -fuck-?

2) Greatsword guy should not get a goddamn shield! Greatsword man decided that he'd accept being shieldless in exchange for the perks of greatswording instead of using (smaller) sword-and-board.

So, I'm still unhappy with the idea. I do think it could work, but...those are serious issues, at least to me.
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

RobbyPants

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Re: Shapechanger
« Reply #32 on: October 13, 2008, 10:21:15 AM »
Not to be a prick (you're entitled to your opinion), but we should probably move this to that thread.  ;)
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Elennsar

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Re: Shapechanger
« Reply #33 on: October 13, 2008, 02:53:54 PM »
No kidding. Sorry about that. Anyway, greatsword vs. two claws seems well set up at present. So...on to the thread in question for my demi-rant.
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

VennDygrem

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Re: Shapechanger
« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2008, 08:17:32 PM »
Figured I'd toss my two cents in.

First: Shifter's Speech conflicts slightly with the description of animal speech in the wild shape text. Nothing major, just needs a line specifying that "there are exceptions, as noted below", etc etc.

Second: I understand the idea of not allowing the Shapechanger to have armor because eventually many forms will have natural armor, but not all of them will given the types of creatures we're opened up to. Plus, this in conjunction with the lack of any first level wildshaping leaves the Shapechanger virtually defenseless at levels 1-3. They may never live to see level 4 where they can gain at least a little bit of natural armor, and even then, only one form per day for four hours, and likely at that HD nothing too insane. This also conflicts with the notion that any armor worn by the original shape can be worn by compatible new forms. This essentially forces the first one or two feats a shapechanger takes to be armor proficiency feats, unless they want to spend their first three levels cowering behind bushes. They don't get the Druid's spells, so they've got essentially nothing to do those first few levels. They can wade into combat, but must fear that their fighter or tank buddy might not hold the enemy's attention forever.

They've got OK hit dice, but just as with the normal druid, they've got little reason to invest heavily into physical stats since they'll be anticipating their wildshape forms overwriting them (they might bump Con up for extra HP, since alternate form dictates that a creature keeps its hit points). This does actually help balance things out a little for players who are starting at low levels, as they can't just pump up their mental stats and neglect physical ones, but anyone starting at higher levels (6+) won't bother.

And obviously, I agree that it takes just a bit too long for the class to come into its own. As I mentioned, until 4, a character is more defenseless than a Wizard, who at least has Mage Armor and some other nifty defensive spells. Even at 4, and until 6 when they can wildshape more than once a day, they've got limited mileage on their wildshaping.

I'm not sure the class necessarily needs natural weapons at level 1, or at least not just claws. Perhaps the class could allow you to choose one natural weapon to have at a time when not in wildshape form, choose between 2 claws, one bite, one gore, tentacle, etc., and one defensive ability, like +2 natural armor when not wildshaped, or 2 DR, or something.

Alternatively, as someone suggested, perhaps a different system than Wildshaping can be devised, that can scale by level and wouldn't be too overpowered at level 1.

Still, I'm a fan of what I'm seeing so far (mixing wildshape with built-in warshaper? Very nice :D), and am highly considering giving it a playtest in a PbP game starting soon. :)

Kuroimaken

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Re: Shapechanger
« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2008, 08:22:59 PM »
Quote
They've got OK hit dice, but just as with the normal druid, they've got little reason to invest heavily into physical stats since they'll be anticipating their wildshape forms overwriting them (they might bump Con up for extra HP, since alternate form dictates that a creature keeps its hit points). This does actually help balance things out a little for players who are starting at low levels, as they can't just pump up their mental stats and neglect physical ones, but anyone starting at higher levels (6+) won't bother.

Y'know, I was pondering, myself... which stats should the hypothetical Shapechanger focus on? As in, for Rogues it's Dex and Int (mainly), for Wizards it's Int, for Clerics it's Wis...
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


VennDygrem

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Re: Shapechanger
« Reply #36 on: October 14, 2008, 08:42:45 PM »
Quote
They've got OK hit dice, but just as with the normal druid, they've got little reason to invest heavily into physical stats since they'll be anticipating their wildshape forms overwriting them (they might bump Con up for extra HP, since alternate form dictates that a creature keeps its hit points). This does actually help balance things out a little for players who are starting at low levels, as they can't just pump up their mental stats and neglect physical ones, but anyone starting at higher levels (6+) won't bother.

Y'know, I was pondering, myself... which stats should the hypothetical Shapechanger focus on? As in, for Rogues it's Dex and Int (mainly), for Wizards it's Int, for Clerics it's Wis...

Now that I think about it, building on what I said earlier, the Shapechanged won't just bump his mental stats completely. They'd probably focus on Dex and Con primarily for defenseive purposes, though though they'll lose their natural dex to wildshaped forms. Everything else depends on what skills and abilities they want to focus on. If they want to focus on supernatural special qualities gained at level 15, they'll probably want either a high Con or high Cha, or both, depending on the abilities.

Wisdom just isn't as important to the Shapechanger as the Druid, since they don't rely on spells, but it's still semi-important for spot/listen and survival, as well as if they intend to be able to track. Otherwise, it can just as easily be a dump stat. Int is good for skill points and extra languages (good for disguises), and for Knowledge skills. I'd probably take the Education feat to make all Knowledge skills class skills, so if my DM asks if I know about the creature I want to shape into, I can make the check.

Kuroimaken

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Re: Shapechanger
« Reply #37 on: October 14, 2008, 08:49:07 PM »
Quote
I'd probably take the Education feat to make all Knowledge skills class skills, so if my DM asks if I know about the creature I want to shape into, I can make the check.

One thing I was thinking about... why would the shapechanger need to know a specific creature? Couldn't he just make a general description of what he wants and assign flat bonuses to it?

Example: at level one he can assume the form of a panther. He gains a flat +2 bonus to two physical attributes of his choice. At level, say, 10, he can assume a similar form (a quadrupedal feline), but he gains bigger bonuses to assign.

Frankly, I think it's better to base the shapechanger on the shapeshifting druid instead.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
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VennDygrem

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Re: Shapechanger
« Reply #38 on: October 14, 2008, 09:02:07 PM »
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I'd probably take the Education feat to make all Knowledge skills class skills, so if my DM asks if I know about the creature I want to shape into, I can make the check.

One thing I was thinking about... why would the shapechanger need to know a specific creature? Couldn't he just make a general description of what he wants and assign flat bonuses to it?

Example: at level one he can assume the form of a panther. He gains a flat +2 bonus to two physical attributes of his choice. At level, say, 10, he can assume a similar form (a quadrupedal feline), but he gains bigger bonuses to assign.

Frankly, I think it's better to base the shapechanger on the shapeshifting druid instead.

The only difference then is that a regular Druid can take the Shapeshifter variant and still keep their spells.

The Shapechanger has more versatility in creature type, whereas the shapeshift and normal wildshape versions focus on animal, plant, and elemental forms (aspects of nature).

The reason the character needs to know about the creature type is multi-faceted. You can't say your character grew up in the big city and spent all of his life working in a bakery and then all of a sudden be able to know about Mindflayers and other odd creatures. This is partially DM fiat, but if the DM asks you to prove you know about that obscure race/monster, you should be able to have a good reason. Player knowledge isn't equal to Character knowledge.

Now, I wouldn't make the DCs too terribly high, since rolling fails on all your knowledge checks would keep cutting down on the creatures you can change into. Still, there's got to be some limit on player abuse.

BobismyRhino

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Re: Shapechanger
« Reply #39 on: October 14, 2008, 09:05:39 PM »
VennDygrem basically said everything I wanted to mention.

The glaring issue I have with this Shapechanger is that chances are, the character would be basically useless until level 4. It can't defend itself, and it would drag down the rest of the party as they had to heal it every few rounds while fighting off enemies and defending themselves as well...

I don't know anything about balancing, but I still feel that armor should be permissible to wear, as long as the Shifter is in its normal form. If it changes into a different form, the armor better be taken off or enchanted so that it'll meld into a new form, but the armor bonus doesn't count or something. At least, while the Shifter is just trying to survive to level 4, it can not die every time it comes into some hostile encounter.

Plus, with armor, the Shapechanger could focus on more important stats (instead of investing precious, precious points into DEX and STR, which will just prove to be useless later on as the shapechanger changes form and gains those bonuses from creatures).

Then again, all this has already been said... I just felt like reiterating it since I happen to LOVE wildshape, and hate dying/being knocked unconscious.  :D

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