Author Topic: An idea on multiclassing.  (Read 66137 times)

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dman11235

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Re: An idea on multiclassing.
« Reply #440 on: October 14, 2008, 03:28:32 PM »
Taking 10 (something you can do) you can climb pretty freakin fast with a 20 str.  You can climb a cliff un-assisted at 15'/action as a human.  So 30'/round.  That's 5' per second.  You really think that's slow?  When you get a MW tool for climb (climber's kit), you only need a 16 in str to do the same thing.  That's plenty.  And you can double speed up a wall with ledges, like, oh, climbing walls, made for things like contests for this, where they tend to go just about 10'/second, meaning that this pretty accurately depicts climbing, and I didn't even use skill points.  As for jump: long jump is distance=check.  So on average a 16 str human (Olympic athlete, probably) will jump 13.5'.  That's further than most people can jump.  Add in some ranks (let's say 8, level 5), Skill Focus, and +2 str (to get more like an Olympic athlete) and you've got an average of 25.5, just short of the world records.  But the average untrained person?  I think that str bonus does it nicely.  They are not skill users.  I've been over this.  They may be skilled at something, but everyone is.  That does not make them skill users.  They don't use their skills to make themselves a viable party member.

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So a warrior who wants to use these skills with a halfway decent chance of success against any reasonable challenge (DC 20-25, nevermind 35+) is going to be hurt by it. That's not cool.

First off, read the skill descriptions, and see that the DCs aren't actually that high.  Then, why does the warrior get to do the skill user's job AND the warrior's job?  What's not cool is another archetype being able to replace a different one.  On a much smaller scale, class to class.  The cleric and druid can do what the fighter and barbarian do, only better, and that's not cool.  Does this mean the cleric and druid are too powerful?  Yes, but it also means that the fighter and barbarian are too weak.

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The "guy with skills" is not really an archetype, its a class (rogue for the most part, ranger to a lesser degree as its a "hybrid")

Did you read my post?  Go back and read it again.

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So...these are not viable archetypes to build classes around. "I use spells" is way too broad when magic allows you to do anything you can imagine, up to and including breaking the game. Now, if "guy with magic" didn't make "guy with swords" and "guy with skills" feel unproductive, it wouldn't be so bad to have Warrior/Expert/Spellcaster as the generic classes (though there are other reasons to object to it).

Again, read my posts and Jaron's posts.  You don't build a class around an archetype.  See the UA generic classes for proof.  You build classes WITHIN an archetype.  Archetypes will contain firemages, frostmages, necromancers, etc.  Then you have types of an archetype.  Archetype encompasses all of those similar, and types are more specific.  You have spellcaster archetype, then necromancer type, firemage type, healer type, evoker type, etc.
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Elennsar

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Re: An idea on multiclassing.
« Reply #441 on: October 14, 2008, 03:44:23 PM »
I really think that's pretty pathetic when in order to get those numbers they have to be unarmored, and the instant they start wearing armor that provides decent benefits for wearing it, they suck.

So, you get to meet DC 15 without armor and with 16+ MW or 20 +/-.

The problem is that versus say, 25, you're sunk.

And that's not meant to be a DC beyond what a reasonably able human can do.

As for skill descriptions: Let's take spot for a moment.

A Fighter will probably have +2 to Spot/Listen at most. You usually can't take 10 when ambushed. So if you're in a position where you might get ambushed, there are two types of party members: Those who might succeed, and those who should not bother rolling.

As for the "skill user's job"...that's not a job. Being able to use skills and hit people with swords should be what most characters rely on. Now, if UMD is something that only those dedicated to it can do, then yes, the warriors should be keeping their grubby paws off it, but Hide/Move Silently/Climb/Spot/Listen/Jump/Swim are things anyone should be able to do with a reasonable chance of success unless they chose not to do those things for some reason (Boromir, for instance, is not much of a sneaker.)

But DC 20 should not be hard for the warrior guys.

As for classes and archetypes: Okay, grabbing dictionary (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/archetype , first definition)..."the original pattern or model from which all things of the same kind are copied or on which they are based; a model or first form; prototype."

Galahad is a (the?) "paladin archetype". "Spellcaster" is not an archetype.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: An idea on multiclassing.
« Reply #442 on: October 14, 2008, 03:55:34 PM »
You are unworthy of logic and incapable of comprehending its glory. This method is exactly as (un)productive as trying to talk sense into you, but requires considerably less effort. After all, if you were capable of making sense you would have gotten the point hundreds of posts ago and shut your damn mouth.
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dman11235

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Re: An idea on multiclassing.
« Reply #443 on: October 14, 2008, 03:56:17 PM »
Uhhhh......what?  They suck when they have armor on, so they shouldn't take the penalties when they have armor on?  Why?  It's a fairly realistic thing: you are worse at climbing when wearing heavy armor that restricts your movement.

As for DC 25 that reasonable humans should be able to do: Why?  First off, where does that say anything of the sort?  Second: Take 20.  There's your DC 25.  Third, why do you need to reach it?  Fourth: that DC 15 I was reaching: no skill points.  A trained climber, again let's do Olympic level, will easily get that DC 25 taking 10.  8 ranks, 18 str, 3 Skill Focus.  Then +2 more for a MW tool.  That's 27 taking 10.

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As for the "skill user's job"...that's not a job. Being able to use skills and hit people with swords should be what most characters rely on. Now, if UMD is something that only those dedicated to it can do, then yes, the warriors should be keeping their grubby paws off it, but Hide/Move Silently/Climb/Spot/Listen/Jump/Swim are things anyone should be able to do with a reasonable chance of success unless they chose not to do those things for some reason (Boromir, for instance, is not much of a sneaker.)

That's your opinion.  And is not supported by facts anyways.  The fact is in 3.x, skills are a major part of the game.  And those with the skill points to spend on being better at them are skill users.  You want to change it: go ahead, but personally I think being trained should count for something, and in order to train you must, you know, TRAIN.  Which is what skills represent.  DC 20 is easy to get for non-skill users anyway.  Heck, they get it 1/20 times already.  With any stat bonus, they get it more often.  That's pretty easy.  But that's not good enough for you?  You want them to make it all the time?  Why?  Why not just go play Imagination and be done with it?

You know what?  I'm done trying to help you.  I held out as long as I could.  Sorry Sunic.
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Elennsar

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Re: An idea on multiclassing.
« Reply #444 on: October 14, 2008, 04:01:27 PM »
It's also a fairly sucky thing that compensating for that is extremely difficult for them.

Where does it say anything of the sort? Somewhere around the fact that presumably 20+first level = this happening 5% of the time is not utterly unbelievable (and if it is, we need to make sure that it is).

As for said climber:

Yes. Now add -5 for armor. 7th level. And that with maxing out skill ranks and spending a feat.

As for helping: If that's "trying to help", it showed an ENORMOUS lack of "trying to understand".
So yes, being trained should help. And any idiot can be trained, not just the guys who agree to sacrifice combat ability to perform above "poor" here.
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SiggyDevil

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Re: An idea on multiclassing.
« Reply #445 on: October 14, 2008, 04:13:19 PM »
If spammers were to get banned, I think Mr. 1.1k posts filled with a whole lot of nothing would go before the people that have something meaningful to offer this community.

Which amuses me greatly, as the aforementioned Mr. 1.1k posts is the one rallying for that rule.

It would also mean that half of my posts would be considered off-topic...

Right. Plank, eye, neighbor, etc.

SiggyDevil

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Re: An idea on multiclassing.
« Reply #446 on: October 14, 2008, 04:17:39 PM »
As for classes and archetypes: Okay, grabbing dictionary (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/archetype , first definition)..."the original pattern or model from which all things of the same kind are copied or on which they are based; a model or first form; prototype."

Galahad is a (the?) "paladin archetype". "Spellcaster" is not an archetype.

You're still not going broad enough in classification.
Go back further, what is a Paladin? Weapons and holy power in melee combat? Riding? Armor?

Warrior.
1 of 3 fantasy archetypes.
This doesn't mean they can't raise dead or heal, no, but the main gimmick they have is weapon combat in armor... which is usually found among warriors (but not to the exclusion of Experts and Casters, it's just that Warriors do it better)

Prime32

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Re: An idea on multiclassing.
« Reply #447 on: October 14, 2008, 04:24:14 PM »
Elennsar, we'll never get anywhere if we argue on what the words we are using mean. Can you just accept the standard use of the word "archetype" for the purposes of this argument?
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Elennsar

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Re: An idea on multiclassing.
« Reply #448 on: October 14, 2008, 04:29:38 PM »
...Prime. Read the link.

That is the sense "archetype" means anything.

If there's some BG dictionary of how you guys use the English language, pass me the link and I'll be on it like a hungry tiger.

But until then, I'm trusting the dictionary. Not what someone claims is the definition. (that someone includes me. There's a reason dictionary.com exists and I acknowledge my player is a dick who didn't buy Eidetic Memory.)

Siggy: A paladin is a warrior with holy powers.

A fighter is a warrior with martial powers. (No, he can't turn undead, but he can probably do things like Whirlwind Attack.)

So. And while musing on classes, and this does belong in the other thread, but until we get focused there (which can take as long as people feel like, but this is going beyond anything related to multiclassing directly) http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=1801

So the question is, are we interested in hammering out what to do from "paladin' or "warrior mage" or "barbarian" or "whatever"?

One way or another, the game has to support the "I am a _____." types we want it to support. And if Fangthanes don't exist in a given setting, that's okay.

Just to add to the link, because this bit is important: (quoting Frank as usual)

Depends upon the warrior archetype. The Paladin heals people out of combat, the Ranger scouts out of combat. They are both warrior archetypes. Or to use historical examples: Theseus figures out tricks to undo puzzles and traps outside of combat; Odysseus uses his persuasion and razor wit to win over neutrals and trick enemies outside of combat.

And so on. Being a "warrior archetype" means that you hit people with a sword (or spear, or chainsaw, or whatever). It doesn't actually say a damn thing about what you do the rest of the time. Odysseus and Theseus are both Warriors from a combat archetype standpoint, but one is a Specialist and one is a Diplomat from a non-combat archetype standpoint.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2008, 04:34:00 PM by Elennsar »
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Ubernoob

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Re: An idea on multiclassing.
« Reply #449 on: October 14, 2008, 04:32:17 PM »
Anybody up for creating a BG dictionary?
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dman11235

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Re: An idea on multiclassing.
« Reply #451 on: October 14, 2008, 04:34:48 PM »
Sure.  Someone else do it, it would be great.
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Elennsar

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Re: An idea on multiclassing.
« Reply #452 on: October 14, 2008, 04:36:43 PM »
If we don't: Let's agree that dictionary.com has the answers and stop quarreling over the meaning of the word "archetype". Arch has nothing to do with archetype.

So. We can do one of two things now:

1) Be really silly until we're all calmed down and constructive.

2) Be constructive now, but without the fun of being silly first.

I vote for 1, because we badly need to get the frustration of the most stupid arguement ever out of our systems.

Nothing worse than arguing over something no one wanted to argue over. With the possible exception of low sodium spam. I mean, what the fuck? There are people who eat spam who are worried about how healthy something that is about as anti-natural as plastic and styrafoam is?

That's something I still don't get.
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RobbyPants

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Re: An idea on multiclassing.
« Reply #453 on: October 14, 2008, 04:39:23 PM »
If we don't: Let's agree that dictionary.com has the answers and stop quarreling over the meaning of the word "archetype".
I think he means something along the lines of TrollBill's Dictionary of Terminology.  The idea is to have a single consolidated thread, both for reference and for new users.
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Elennsar

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Re: An idea on multiclassing.
« Reply #454 on: October 14, 2008, 04:42:46 PM »
That'd be good by me. As long as we have a standard, it doesn't fundementally matter what we pick as long as its clear and teachable.

Having archetype mean something entirely different in gamerspeak and in common English is just confusing, though.

 
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AndyJames

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Re: An idea on multiclassing.
« Reply #455 on: October 14, 2008, 04:57:54 PM »
Hey, did Elennsar ever post proof where I called him "a fag" or "probably a fag"? Cause I am still trying to find it. I am pretty sure that I never did say that, but given how vehement he was...

Elennsar

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Re: An idea on multiclassing.
« Reply #456 on: October 14, 2008, 04:58:24 PM »
You've been saying that sort of thing. That word? No. That style of "comment"? Yes.

So: If that's not been your intent here or elsewhere, and you've just been letting off steam, then I withdraw the comment on you saying that sort of thing about me and we can and should resume lives and gaming having nothing to do with each other.

But if you're going to call me a moron in every way you can think of because I disagree with you, then whether or not you use the word "fag" or just "idiot" is kind of irrelevant.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2008, 04:59:59 PM by Elennsar »
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Ubernoob

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Re: An idea on multiclassing.
« Reply #457 on: October 14, 2008, 05:01:49 PM »
If we don't: Let's agree that dictionary.com has the answers and stop quarreling over the meaning of the word "archetype". Arch has nothing to do with archetype.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/jargon

Just for future reference.
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Elennsar

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Re: An idea on multiclassing.
« Reply #458 on: October 14, 2008, 05:14:16 PM »
Jargon =/= definition.

If there's a list of Words as BG Uses Them, and that list is about as clearly accessible as adding a post to this thread, I really don't care if the word archetype is used in BG Speak to mean what was said here.

However, I damn well hope that archetype as I just used it (from the dictionary) has a seperate word for it.

Calling the locomotive engineer (driver) a "hoghead" (http://www.catskillarchive.com/rrextra/glossry1.Html ) is a completely foreign from common English for all intents and purposes. Trying to make sense of how the "engineer" gets that title is also a mystery without more knowledge of history than even I really want(ed).

So if slang/jargon/whatever is used, we need a clear dictionary and a clear indicator so that it isn't "oh, but I'm using BG Speak. You should know this!"...because in 98% of my life, a black hole is not a tunnel, and expecting me to realize that this is one of those times by instinct is a tad unreasonable.

Same principle with the language of the hobby.

Communication isn't communication if we're using English so differently.

So...can we figure out which "archetype" means and what the word for the sense not used is so we can move on to communicating and not dropping links and getting unnecessarily worked up?
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RobbyPants

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Re: An idea on multiclassing.
« Reply #459 on: October 14, 2008, 05:19:16 PM »
But in a given group or subculture, there's bound to be plenty of jargon.  It's nice if everyone's on the same page about it.  For example, if you say AC here, everyone knows you're talking about Armor Class.  Go over to Giant ITP and they might wonder why you're talking about Azure City.
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