Author Topic: An idea on multiclassing.  (Read 66143 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

woodenbandman

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2188
    • Email
Re: An idea on multiclassing.
« Reply #240 on: October 12, 2008, 06:05:01 PM »
Are you TRYING to earn the ire of the regulars here, Elennsar? Under your system, prestige classes would be irrelevant because you want to make people who want to get good at two things, let's say eating and sleeping, horrible at both!

Just how highly do you value a +2 to fortitude saves, 2 extra HP (average), and a point of Base Attack Bonus? Not so sexy when you put it in perspective of FOREVER GIVING UP YOUR LAST LEVEL OF A CLASS, is it? Most sane people wouldn't do it if they wanted to take a competent class, say, Druid, all the way to 20. "But Wait," you cry, "Druid is a great class, of course they would want to take it to 20!" That's correct! The problem is not with the system, it's with all the broken classes in it. And suppose I wanted to make a Rogue/Fighter/Assassin/Swordsage/Crusader/Ruby Knight Vindicator/Barbarian/Maid Marion/Corrupted Politician (sound it all out by the syllable). It's still weaker than a druid 20. Maybe even a druid 10. So what we, as people who do multiclass, are doing, is attempting to keep up with the power curve (cliff) of the game. Again: Just because the wizard is overpowered and you believe it should be weaker, the fact is that it is not, and as such the new "wizard" that you imagine that is exactly X amount of powerful is not grounds for an argument on why multiclassing is overpowered.

I will make you an offer: I'll present you with two character concepts: One will be, say, the greatest magician in the world. Let's call him David Copperfield. Then there's the best criminal in the world. Let's call him Dick Cheney.

Now, Mister copperfield delights the children with his cantrips. His feats of prestidigitation are unparalleled. He is so masterful, he can make people fly, create reality from nothingness, rob the thieves blind from under their very noses.

Now, Dick is an asshole. He exists only to steal from the american people, and he's damn good at it.

I'll give you 1 guess to guess who has more classes.
[spoiler]David Copperfield is a Wizard20. Dick Cheney is a Rogue/Warlock/Mountebank/Assassin/Marshal(he leads the smear campaigns into battle)/Binder(he channels Doctor Mengele)/Bard/Evangelist.

I only went into concept there. I have no idea how I'd qualify for all of those things. I imagine that it would be painful and very fun to think out.[/spoiler]


Prime32

  • Administrator
  • Organ Grinder
  • *
  • Posts: 7534
  • Modding since 03/12/10
Re: An idea on multiclassing.
« Reply #241 on: October 12, 2008, 06:07:07 PM »
Again, claiming that "characters can multiclass" is the biggest problem in the game?!

::checks.:: What do you mean by "and that by making the rules better, no one can roleplay"? That is, what are you reading?

Quote
So 3e is a pretty bad game then, is it?

As is, I'd have to say it is less roleplaying friendly than 2e since it forces a number of things on the players that make little sense, as far as I can see. And when it does that, one would be remiss in their roleplaying if their PC 'looked the other way' just for game harmony, and didn't explore the world around them. People are curious creatures, and your PC probably is too, so they would do these things if the laws of the universe permitted it.

But it's still a good combat game. In fact, the area they improved mostly seems to deal with combat or game mechanics. And game mechanics are not coincidentally most often used in combat. Unfortunately, they damaged or at least interfered with some roleplaying potential when they made this new system. My guess is their target audience would have to care more about fighting, combat, game numbers, power gaming, mini maxing, and hack and slash, as some call it, than they would about roleplaying, plot, story, and intrigue, etc. They're pretty strong on the game mechanics, and they are better than before. In fact, it's almost like they wanted them to be handled by computer simulations; they're that precise. Maybe WotC is planning on making D&D more computer-friendly.
Massive Stormwind Fallacy. Besides, this guy already complained about the flavour they did have in the same essay.

I urge everyone who has not read the link to read it.
I'm slightly reminded of Jack Chick
« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 06:12:58 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

woodenbandman

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2188
    • Email
Re: An idea on multiclassing.
« Reply #242 on: October 12, 2008, 06:10:47 PM »
Oh, wait, I'll do you one better. There's two people. They both have nothing but their clothes. They both claim to be thieves. Both were sent on a mission to steal a gem. What class was the one who won?
[spoiler]The Sorceror. Because he knows silence, greater invisibility, fly, celerity, dimension door, etc, and has the metamagic feats Still Spell, Silent Spell, etc. ad nauseum[/spoiler]


SiggyDevil

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1111
  • Magmar, the ultimate butthead
    • Feybook Project
Re: An idea on multiclassing.
« Reply #243 on: October 12, 2008, 06:12:53 PM »
Quote
Single classed ninja fails because ninja as by stereotype is a semi-caster. They use 'jutsu' or handsigns, which are essentially spells, to get around, change shape, and disappear.

Dude, keep your shitty Naruto out of my ninja.

I was citing Tenchu you dickbutt  :clap

... although Naruto would be another direction to approach the same stereotype.

Guyr Adamantine

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 586
  • Chaotic Evil and loving it.
    • Email
Re: An idea on multiclassing.
« Reply #244 on: October 12, 2008, 06:14:43 PM »
I urge everyone who has not read the link to read it.
I'm slightly reminded of Jack Chick

Sounds like a classic "New Edition Rant" to me.

Ellensar: :lol

Please, please tell me that link isn't serious.

Elennsar

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1944
  • The Emperor is watching, the Emperor knows.
    • Email
Re: An idea on multiclassing.
« Reply #245 on: October 12, 2008, 06:15:39 PM »
Let's say you're entirely misreading what I have to say if "eating and sleeping" are used as examples of things that I'd make "people who want to do both would be horrible at both" or even 'horrible at one to be good at the other".

If you want to be a great sailor and a great pilot, those are two things that one or the other will suffer to some extent.

If you want to be a great swordsman and a great archer, those are two things where focusing on being great at one will impair your ability to keep the other honed.

If you want to be great at heavily armored and armed fighting and at unarmored/unarmed martial arts, one or the other is going to suffer.

As for "forever giving up your last level of a class":

If  20 was the absolute level cap and you could never advance beyond 20th level/190,000 xp (correct me if I misremember the xp total), that would be one thing.

So, are you TRYING to be a dick, or are you just unable to follow what I'm saying?

It isn't. And any work along those lines isn't relevant to this discussion, whether good, bad, or so so.

Prime: Focusing on min-maxing and ignoring roleplaying is his point. If you read his site, you'll notice that he's not against powerful characters or wanting to be powerful, he's against min-maxing instead of roleplaying.  

Paraphrasing: The game is more about min-maxing characters and less about roleplaying characters (min-maxed or nonmin-maxed).

If that's "Stormwind fallacy", then "Stormwind fallacy" is basically the arguement that min-maxing is bad, and that roleplaying is good, and anything else said is totally irrelevant because the person said those two things.

Guyr: I've no idea how serious it is. As stated, the reason its posted is his comments quoted via spoiler and the N level rule, not the fact he thinks 3e was designed by drunken lemurs (we all know that WotC hired drunken lemurs, whether or not he's right on which parts they worked on).

As for Chick: Let's keep Mr. D&D-is-Evil-Bad-For-You out of this thread, 'kay?
« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 06:17:35 PM by Elennsar »
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

Prime32

  • Administrator
  • Organ Grinder
  • *
  • Posts: 7534
  • Modding since 03/12/10
Re: An idea on multiclassing.
« Reply #246 on: October 12, 2008, 06:18:41 PM »
If that's "Stormwind fallacy", then "Stormwind fallacy" is basically the arguement that min-maxing is bad, and that roleplaying is good, and anything else said is totally irrelevant because the person said those two things.
The Stormwind Fallacy is the idea that roleplaying affects min-maxing or vice versa.

Making the rules better does not make it harder to roleplay, since the players' roleplaying ability is not part of the rules in the first place.


Looking at the rest of the site, he seems to be saying "2e had flaws, but they got fixed with houserules, so there's no problem with it. 3e has flaws which need houserules to solve, so it's a bad system."
« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 06:30:27 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Guyr Adamantine

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 586
  • Chaotic Evil and loving it.
    • Email
Re: An idea on multiclassing.
« Reply #247 on: October 12, 2008, 06:19:11 PM »
Guyr: Rank?

Sorry, I got a black belt in Typo-Fu. I meant link.

woodenbandman

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2188
    • Email
Re: An idea on multiclassing.
« Reply #248 on: October 12, 2008, 06:19:57 PM »
All games are more about min/maxed characters. If you make a conscious choice to do something that is advantageous to a character, you are min/maxing. Whether it involves actions in-combat or not.

Games go to level 20. That's just it. Epic level is completely unbalanced, and too much of a headache, and character builds never go beyond that on this board. Epic gaming is a far off pipe dream, analogous to cold fusion or world peace. Almost nobody plays epic because it gets too out of hand. Epic. Is. Not. A. Basis. For. Comparison. Of anything.

Elennsar

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1944
  • The Emperor is watching, the Emperor knows.
    • Email
Re: An idea on multiclassing.
« Reply #249 on: October 12, 2008, 06:24:05 PM »
No worries and responded.

Typos are one thing that if I could control my character sheet, I'd want to whack my player for not spending the points so that I'd only make them on a natural 1.

I'd also want to whack the son of a bitch for taking the Bad Sight disadvantage.


Anyway. So, does having a black belt in Typo-Fu come in hand other than for amusement?


Wooden: It exists. Whether its even more horribly fucked up than the game in general, you are not flat out prohibited from reaching 21+ and having both druid 20 and fighter 1.

The arguement is whether or not it is possible, not whether or not any DM would let it happen ever.

As for "if you make a conscious choice to do something that is advantageous to a character, you are min/maxing"...

You're using the term even more loosely than I use the term "role playing game" in arguing (sarcastically) Monopoly can be one. Seriously.
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

Prime32

  • Administrator
  • Organ Grinder
  • *
  • Posts: 7534
  • Modding since 03/12/10
Re: An idea on multiclassing.
« Reply #250 on: October 12, 2008, 07:06:40 PM »
Prime: Focusing on min-maxing and ignoring roleplaying is his point. If you read his site, you'll notice that he's not against powerful characters or wanting to be powerful, he's against min-maxing instead of roleplaying.

Quote
The Problems Of Mini-Maxing (Why Mini-Maxing Is At Odds With Good Roleplaying.)
That's the title of an article on his site. The very title is SF again.
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Elennsar

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1944
  • The Emperor is watching, the Emperor knows.
    • Email
Re: An idea on multiclassing.
« Reply #251 on: October 12, 2008, 07:14:20 PM »
Have you read the article, or simply the title?

"Similarly, your warrior character is not looking over a table of hundreds of weapons, comparing speed factors, damage ranges, weights, costs, lengths and ranges, etc. He wouldn't be able to pick the best handful of weapons to become proficient in either, and even if he could, chances are it's more realistic he learns the weapon his master or mentor happens to be skilled with - or maybe even the weapon he can afford. After all, why do you think they have hundreds of weapons if one were clearly the best?

Yes, the player may pick his weapon as a matter of choice, but when he begins to build upon it using every rule in the book, as if the character had such precise, quantified knowledge, then it is mini-maxing. For example, playing a warrior, specializing in darts - as he has exceptional strength and knows he gets full damage bonuses for every thrown weapon, no matter how unrealistic that is - using racial advantages on top of that, using kit advantages on top of that, etc. etc., will give you a character with such combat bonuses such that he'd be a true wonder of the world. That is a good way to maximize your character's power before they even step out the door and see what color the sky is, but it is not roleplaying.

...

At this time I must point out that mini-maxing does not mean you cannot play the role of such a powerful character, and even roleplay it well. A mini-maxer may be able to roleplay very well. In fact, as long as they have a powerful character, they may be excellent roleplayers. Mini-maxers, despite the fact they often use game rules as character knowledge, can roleplay. What makes one a mini-maxer is not an inability to roleplay, but a tendency to wish to play only from a position of strength and advantage. Mini-maxers tend to use the rules as character knowledge as well.

Roleplayers, on the other hand, embrace a much wider variety of roles, from very weak to very powerful. Mini-maxers, though they can play their role of power well, do not tend to wish to play from any weakness, let alone many weaknesses. In fact, sadly, they may gripe, complain, whine, bicker, and sulk like any immature little boy might, should they not be allowed to have a powerful character and get their own way. *Sigh!*
"

Emphasis is mine, unfortunately not in the original.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 07:23:34 PM by Elennsar »
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

Sunic_Flames

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4782
  • The Crusader of Logic.
Re: An idea on multiclassing.
« Reply #252 on: October 12, 2008, 08:03:46 PM »
Expense ceases to be a valid point at... oh right. Level 1. Oops. You honestly mean to tell me a mother fucking weapons master cannot work out x is better than y? Seriously? Sounds like more of Elennsar brand Epic Fucking Fail all around.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Elennsar

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1944
  • The Emperor is watching, the Emperor knows.
    • Email
Re: An idea on multiclassing.
« Reply #253 on: October 12, 2008, 08:08:45 PM »
Expense ceases to be a valid point at level 1 only because the game is designed around "characters are covered in magic items by level 5."

Not necessarily a good thing.

As for weapon masters: A weapon master doesn't have a table that says "longswords are better than scimitars because scimitars do 1-2 less damage and crit only 5% more so obviously longswords are better." (or scimitars are, I don't have that table either)

So, if he's from a culture that uses longswords, he'll use a longsword. If he's from a culture that uses scimitars, he'll use a scimitar. If he's from one that uses both, he'll compare them based on their traits in the sense he can observe them.

As stated: Stay out of the thread if you have nothing to add to it besides insults and spam. No one is forcing you to use whatever is hammered out here, or even suggesting that you do so, for that matter.

All that you are contributing is douchebaggery.
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: An idea on multiclassing.
« Reply #254 on: October 12, 2008, 08:46:25 PM »
Yeah, Elennsar is right.  After all, why should an Int 26 Wizard who studies spells all day long and is a genius know which spells are better to use and which paths lead to greater mastery of spells?  And a sword nut who masters swords... why would he know that one weapon is generally better than another?  If a weapon is from his culture, he'll use it.  For example, all Texans that fight in the US military in Iraq use cowboy hats and six shooters, because they don't have a table telling them that military helmets and assault rifles do more damage with greater range. 

So take that, you douchebags!  Stormwind Fallacy is wrong!  Roleplayers over Rollplayers forever!!!11!

JaronK

Elennsar

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1944
  • The Emperor is watching, the Emperor knows.
    • Email
Re: An idea on multiclassing.
« Reply #255 on: October 12, 2008, 08:48:28 PM »
...Jaron, if you actually think I believe anything of the sort on said Texans or wizards or sword nuts...you're totally and utterly missing the point.

The fact that there are multiple different types of handguns indicates that there is no one Best Handgun Out There Which There's No Reason Not to Use, to point at the most obvious example.


On swords, for instance: http://www.thearma.org/essays/nobest.htm , http://www.thearma.org/essays/katanavs.htm and http://www.thearma.org/essays/longsword-and-katana.html.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 08:52:00 PM by Elennsar »
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

woodenbandman

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2188
    • Email
Re: An idea on multiclassing.
« Reply #256 on: October 12, 2008, 09:23:17 PM »


Roleplayers, on the other hand, embrace a much wider variety of roles, from very weak to very powerful. Mini-maxers, though they can play their role of power well, do not tend to wish to play from any weakness, let alone many weaknesses. In fact, sadly, they may gripe, complain, whine, bicker, and sulk like any immature little boy might, should they not be allowed to have a powerful character and get their own way. *Sigh!*
"

Emphasis is mine, unfortunately not in the original.

Elennsar: Spokesperson of roleplayers everywhere.

Seriously, is that what your argument is predicated on? You think that there's a legion of people who play exactly the way you would play it? Just because a character is min/maxed doesn't mean that they don't have weaknesses. Your original example is, for example, completely shut down by mental domination, things that require a will save in general, probably social situations, battlefield control, etc etc etc. That frenzied berserker that just did 500 damage to you? Hit it with Dominate Person. That wizard annoying you? Stinking Cloud/Disintegrate.

There is a weakness to everything, sans Pun Pun. Just because you're frustrated that everyone pokes at yours doesn't mean that you have the right to give everyone more. Fuck you and your undoubtedly gapped teeth with your patronizing *sigh*. This sealed it for me. You're just being petty because you have a different style of play from the people here, and you want to force that play style choice on everyone because you can't deal with people having power. IT'S A ROLEPLAYING GAME. SOME PEOPLE LIKE TO THINK THAT IN SOME UNIVERSE THEIR ACTIONS HOLD SWAY.

Don't like having power? Try playing in an extremely high powered campaign where you have to optimize or just fucking die. You won't face any enemies with "alertness" and "toughness" in this universe. You've got to be on point, ever vigilant in search of danger, or you will be slain. I learned to play the game in this style of game. And I died. 2 times. In 2 sessions. And then I learned to make a competent character, something you've obviously never done if you're so worried about the power balance between a fighter5/rogue5 and a 10th level of either.

Difference between that play style and mandating that everyone be weak? You get to have fun building your character the second way.



Elennsar

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1944
  • The Emperor is watching, the Emperor knows.
    • Email
Re: An idea on multiclassing.
« Reply #257 on: October 12, 2008, 09:32:23 PM »
Emphasis on the text you put in bold was not done by me or Starlight. Is there a reason you're putting it in bold with "emphasis is mine" in the quote thread as if I was doing it?

Nothing remotely wrong with wanting your actions to hold sway. What's wrong is "I want to be able to dictate the fate of nations. Not 'try to'. I want to be able to say "Jump" and everyone jumps."

In regards to your end comment: That's not high power necessarily. That's "everything has +X relative to you, so if you don't squeeze out every possible point of advantage you'll be weak(er)."

That's not teaching how to make a competent character, that's teaching someone how to play to "win".

Regardless: If you're not interested in this, then why are you posting in this thread? Is there some fear that because I think something should be done differently and that the game would be better that way that if I'm not insulted and/or spammed to death that I'll mind control you into playing My Way or killing yourselves with butter knives?

Either contribute or ignore the thread. Insulting and attacking are not contributing.
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

woodenbandman

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2188
    • Email
Re: An idea on multiclassing.
« Reply #258 on: October 12, 2008, 09:42:46 PM »
Nah, we should house rule it so that his style of play is illegal.

Risada

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1827
  • Wearing this outfit in the name of SCIENCE!
    • Email
Re: An idea on multiclassing.
« Reply #259 on: October 12, 2008, 09:52:02 PM »
If you don't care for any of this, you'll never be remotely effected. Ohnoes, people are playing D&D in a way that isn't High Magic High Power High Fantasy. Disaster will strike!

Someone said before, but I will say it again: why would I play D&D if I don't want magic and ubergodly powerful stuff to happen?