Author Topic: Not a Troll: Tell me why the rich should have higher taxes.  (Read 60117 times)

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PhoenixInferno

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Re: Not a Troll: Tell me why the rich should have higher taxes.
« Reply #360 on: October 14, 2008, 08:06:15 PM »
What he is saying is that if you are in a meeting with Tshern to discuss mutual policies, then yes, you are a communist.

What he is not saying is that if you are a friend of Tshern, you are a communist.
1) No one on these forums were at those meetings, although we can speculate.
2) Discussing policy with a communist doesn't make me a communist.  By that definition, you are a communist AndyJames.

AndyJames

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Re: Not a Troll: Tell me why the rich should have higher taxes.
« Reply #361 on: October 14, 2008, 08:17:38 PM »
Not really. I am not discussing. I am condemning. Discussion implies a certain "let's get together and hash things out". I am saying flat out that communism and socialism is the pits.

PhoenixInferno

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Re: Not a Troll: Tell me why the rich should have higher taxes.
« Reply #362 on: October 14, 2008, 08:27:28 PM »
Not really. I am not discussing. I am condemning. Discussion implies a certain "let's get together and hash things out". I am saying flat out that communism and socialism is the pits.
1)Keynesian economic theory has its uses.
2) Discussion doesn't imply any kind of agreement, except to listen to the opposite side.  Which seems to fit your demagoguery.

AndyJames

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Re: Not a Troll: Tell me why the rich should have higher taxes.
« Reply #363 on: October 14, 2008, 08:30:32 PM »
Which part of "MUTUAL policies" did you not understand, PI?

PhoenixInferno

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Re: Not a Troll: Tell me why the rich should have higher taxes.
« Reply #364 on: October 14, 2008, 08:32:08 PM »
Which part of "MUTUAL policies" did you not understand, PI?
Whatever.  Its not like you never misread something, ever.

X-Codes

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Re: Not a Troll: Tell me why the rich should have higher taxes.
« Reply #365 on: October 15, 2008, 02:58:43 AM »
Defensive aren't we?  Read my post.

At the time Obama was having a political meeting at Ayers house (whatever you want to call it to make it easier for you to swallow), Ayers was saying he (Ayers himself) was a communist.

Neither of you have read my position on the "Capitalism vs. Communism" thread have you?
Hint, I mostly disagree with Tshern about the state of the means of production and his anti-American stance.
Just like you haven't produced an ounce of logical thinking.  My brother is a communist and even wrote an obituary for George Carlin in the Socialist Worker when he died.  I've discussed Union politics with him on occasion and even visited a couple new-years parties with him and his friends.  By your analysis, I'm hardcore communist... but look at my posting on THIS thread.  I feel there are many more things that should be dictated by the free market than things that should be under the exclusive control of the government.

Oh, and McCain and Palin both also have domestic terrorist connections.  Terrorists that are still active today, not ones that were active in the 60's.  Therefore, Obama is, at the very least, no worse than McCain on this point, ergo, this point is MOOT.

Now, stop funneling the conservative junk e-mail spam onto the forum, or I shall revoke your rights to procreate.

Tshern

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Re: Not a Troll: Tell me why the rich should have higher taxes.
« Reply #366 on: October 15, 2008, 12:29:46 PM »
Quote from: Dragon Snack
Neither of you have read my position on the "Capitalism vs. Communism" thread have you?
In case you are referring to me, I must say I have read your ideas. Moreover, I think most of the people here, and in general as well, disagree with me about politics.

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Hallack

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Re: Not a Troll: Tell me why the rich should have higher taxes.
« Reply #367 on: October 15, 2008, 02:50:42 PM »
Not really. I am not discussing. I am condemning. Discussion implies a certain "let's get together and hash things out". I am saying flat out that communism and socialism is the pits.
1)Keynesian economic theory has its uses.
2) Discussion doesn't imply any kind of agreement, except to listen to the opposite side.  Which seems to fit your demagoguery.

Have to admit that I'm more a fan of the Austrian School of economic thought.  I'm of the opinion that the keynesian school of thought is what has put us in the financial mess we are in now.

btw discussing with socialist, communist, or otherwise does not make oneself one.  And I think much good discussion can come from folks of greatly differing perspectives though one should probably not go into such discussions expecting to change the others opinion.  Agreeing with the appropriate sort of policies does.   ie banking bailouts are a socialist sort of policy action.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Not a Troll: Tell me why the rich should have higher taxes.
« Reply #368 on: October 15, 2008, 02:51:39 PM »
What is this? 1950? I thought McCarthy was dead, and the cold war was over.
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Elennsar

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Re: Not a Troll: Tell me why the rich should have higher taxes.
« Reply #369 on: October 15, 2008, 02:58:26 PM »
There will always be some people who use the word Communist to mean Enemy OF AMERICA.

By strange and malign coincidence, the people who will always be idiots breed with these people.

Like attracts like?
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

Tshern

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Re: Not a Troll: Tell me why the rich should have higher taxes.
« Reply #370 on: October 15, 2008, 03:17:52 PM »
What is this? 1950? I thought McCarthy was dead, and the cold war was over.
The cold war is never over, if it ended, people could not use communism as a reason to attack countries. Soon, when terrorism starts sounding too casual, politicians can again use communism to justify everything.

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Hallack

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Re: Not a Troll: Tell me why the rich should have higher taxes.
« Reply #371 on: October 15, 2008, 05:43:15 PM »
What is this? 1950? I thought McCarthy was dead, and the cold war was over.
The cold war is never over, if it ended, people could not use communism as a reason to attack countries. Soon, when terrorism starts sounding too casual, politicians can again use communism to justify everything.

Well, nations (and people) need to have their boogie men.  :-\
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PhoenixInferno

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Re: Not a Troll: Tell me why the rich should have higher taxes.
« Reply #372 on: October 16, 2008, 01:06:17 AM »
Have to admit that I'm more a fan of the Austrian School of economic thought.  I'm of the opinion that the keynesian school of thought is what has put us in the financial mess we are in now.

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Re: Not a Troll: Tell me why the rich should have higher taxes.
« Reply #373 on: October 16, 2008, 04:20:58 AM »
Have to admit that I'm more a fan of the Austrian School of economic thought.  I'm of the opinion that the keynesian school of thought is what has put us in the financial mess we are in now.
On the contrary, what has started recently has nothing to do with Keynesian economic theory unless you grossly mis-apply it.  What has happened is that the United States has been overspending money outside it's borders (key difference there), mostly for military campaigns in Iraq and Afghanistan and oil from their neighbors.  This money has mostly stimulated other economies, such as China, and also channeled a disproportionately large sum to already wealthy businesses who have distributed it to their CEOs.  As a result, there's all this money is not being re-circulated into the US economy which has slowed it down considerably and caused the current US recession.  This has then spread to other nations because they all have lots of US money and investments, so when the US isn't doing well then much of their own assets are losing value as well.

While I'm on the subject, I doubt that this recession will be too terrible for anyone outside the United States.  Some people invested heavily in the United States from overseas will likely see a notable loss in value, but beyond that pretty much all the other countries still have functional governments managing their own problems and corporations practicing well and truly legal and legitimate business transactions.  You probably also don't have a 14-digit debt.

JaronK

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Re: Not a Troll: Tell me why the rich should have higher taxes.
« Reply #374 on: October 16, 2008, 04:31:32 AM »
While I'm on the subject, I doubt that this recession will be too terrible for anyone outside the United States. 

Tell it to Iceland and Pakistan!  I think they disagree.

I'd also disagree with your reasons for what happened.  Yes, the war is bleeding us dry, but the credit meltdown is I think far more related to the two laws written by Phil Graham in 1999 and 2000 that allowed for the debt trading nonsense that meant that one bank failing caused the rest to go, as well as the creation of the entire sub prime market fiasco.  And now he's one of  McCain's economics advisers and co-chair of the campaign.  Yehaw!

One source (of many):  http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2008/07/foreclosure-phil.html

JaronK

AndyJames

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Re: Not a Troll: Tell me why the rich should have higher taxes.
« Reply #375 on: October 16, 2008, 04:36:49 AM »
He might also want to tell it to the New Zealanders, who lost about 40 financial institutions in a period of about 15 months...

PhoenixInferno

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Re: Not a Troll: Tell me why the rich should have higher taxes.
« Reply #376 on: October 16, 2008, 05:33:47 AM »
While I'm on the subject, I doubt that this recession will be too terrible for anyone outside the United States. 

Tell it to Iceland and Pakistan!  I think they disagree.
Heh, yeah - they asked Russia to bail them out.
Quote
I'd also disagree with your reasons for what happened.  Yes, the war is bleeding us dry, but the credit meltdown is I think far more related to the two laws written by Phil Graham in 1999 and 2000 that allowed for the debt trading nonsense that meant that one bank failing caused the rest to go, as well as the creation of the entire sub prime market fiasco.  And now he's one of  McCain's economics advisers and co-chair of the campaign.  Yehaw!

One source (of many):  http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2008/07/foreclosure-phil.html

JaronK
To be fair, it would have been hard for anyone at the time to know exactly what would happen if credit default swaps were left unregulated.  Perhaps Warren Buffet and other major financiers might have known what the worst case scenario was, but it was supposedly a low probability event.  Which isn't to say that there was no point in regulating them, but its hard to know how much effort you should expend on getting the regulation in place.

Fortunately, Europe bailed their banks out before too many institutions failed - it could have been a lot worse because they're actually even more highly leveraged than American investment banks were.  The worst American offenders were leveraged 30:1 - Barclays is/was leveraged 100:1.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2008, 05:37:09 AM by PhoenixInferno »

JaronK

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Re: Not a Troll: Tell me why the rich should have higher taxes.
« Reply #377 on: October 16, 2008, 06:26:15 AM »
Hey, the bills he got through were specifically designed to remove protections created in the 30s to prevent boom and bust cycles, followed by total deregulation of certain markets.  The first was just stupid for the country (but great for the people who could ride the boom wave and get off in time) and the second is a financial move only a Republican or Libertarian could love (and yeah, it did exactly what reasonable people say happens when you have a totally deregulated market).  But to say that no one could see it coming is rediculous... in fact, one of the current board members of AIG said then that swaps would cause this, back when it was being passed.  He still jumped into that pool though. 

JaronK

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Re: Not a Troll: Tell me why the rich should have higher taxes.
« Reply #378 on: October 16, 2008, 08:41:35 AM »
The US is way too cynical to not expect the worst possible result of any given piece of legislation.

By the way, the US isn't exactly fine itself, either.  Unemployment is creeping up by about 0.1% a quarter, on top of an already high rate created by that shitmonkey in charge.  Compound that for however long this bullshit is going to take, I've been hearing years from some economists, and hearing from others that no matter what it's going to get worse next year.  That's not all; our banking system seems to be slow in putting the pieces back together, too, and no real legislation is going to get passed before the election or during the lame duck session because everyone's scared of looking political.  In other words, it's going to be some 3 months before any real work on serious fixes to the US economy begin, so another 200k people get to lose their jobs and the Dow gets to keep shaving off 5% a week.  Greatest.  Fucking.  Country.  Ever.

Oh, and this last Presidential debate was a shitstorm of stupidity.  Some guy named Joe got 25 shoutouts and then they talked about Abortion.  Fucking hell.

Do you get why I have the hateraide for the USA now?  Do you get why I say it's not that bad for the rest of you guys?  No matter how badly you guys fuck up or get fucked up, the USA is the greatest fuck-up in the world.  We'll do it worse just to prove we can!

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Not a Troll: Tell me why the rich should have higher taxes.
« Reply #379 on: October 16, 2008, 09:31:23 AM »
I got a kick out of that debate myself. Older, more skilled me vs crazy old man.
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