Author Topic: Not a Troll: Tell me why the rich should have higher taxes.  (Read 60127 times)

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AndyJames

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Re: Not a Troll: Tell me why the rich should have higher taxes.
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2008, 08:14:44 AM »
The goverment can do with a lot of trimming.

Look. The taxes work as is. I have no *major* problems with that. What I do have problems with are those losers who think that it is their frakking, God-given right to screw the rich over in their attempts to make a "fair" society. Fair in their eyes being everyone is reduced to their level of (in)competence.

I am kinda enamoured to a society where people who strive are actually rewarded for it instead of being beaten about the head for "taking more than his fair share".


EDIT: Off to bed. Will reply in a few hours. Work hard, play hard, dudes!

Elennsar

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Re: Not a Troll: Tell me why the rich should have higher taxes.
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2008, 08:16:50 AM »
I'm comfortable (but not upper) middle class.  Moving on.

The dream is dead and beyond dead. It never existed. Nice idea? Hell yes. Ever true? Not so you'd notice.

Yes, if one works hard, is very smart, and a little lucky, you can climb.

However, the "luck" part is the problem. In order to seize opportunies, they have to be there. And generally, they aren't. Particularly as more and more jobs that actually pay decently demand college education.

So Joe Shmoe, who puts in a 14 hour day, may be able to pass on something to his children, but often, its a tale of how despite one's best efforts, they aren't enough.

As for fatcat CEOs? Using them as an example of the American dream being true for more than a handful at most (and most of them come from families already in a comfortable position) is absurd. If the American Dream was true, then I could take Jose off the streets, give him a passable education and good wishes, and he'd be able to work his way up to any position he wanted.

Odds of that happening? If it ever was possible, it was in the 19th century, when there was a lot more "uncontrolled" for the fortunate to grab and make their own.


If John has 80% of the wealth in a given region, then John should be paying 80% of the taxes collected in that region. With all the various ways the wealthy can avoid being taxed fully, he almost certainly won't.

As for reducing the scope of the government: How far can you reduce it before it is too limited to do any good? The bloated beaucracy concept has less foundation in reality than the flat earth theory and creationism.

As for "fair share"...when and if the rich only are rich because of their own efforts, not luck, not the system being unbalanced, not any other advantages they don't deserve...we can talk about letting them being rewarded. So long as you're embracing capitalism, forget the rich earning their wealth purely by their own sweat (metaphorically or literally). They earn it by exploiting...people and/or situations and a healthy chunk of good luck (which I don't begrudge them per se, but is not something they deserve any more than I do or the poor do).
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Blade2718

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Re: Not a Troll: Tell me why the rich should have higher taxes.
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2008, 08:23:04 AM »
Just because someone *can* afford something does not mean he *should* lose more. That is just plain "I have less than you and I want more, so frakk you, give it to me, you filthy bastard" way of thinking. You know what we generally call some of the people who think like that and act on it in society? Robbers. Burglars. Pursesnatchers. Blackmailers. Criminals.
All taxation can be thought of that way.

If you accept that government needs funds to perform its functions, then you have to answer the question of who pays for it.  The flat tax is awful - it raises the taxes on the poor to a level that is unsustainable.  I mean, if they're having trouble now when they're not paying taxes because of the brackets, then they ain't gonna make it when they have to pay taxes.  It can work - only if you drastically reduce the scope of government so that everyone's taxes are reasonable.
Actually, a flat tax would be beneficial, if you taxed all things equally.  The so-called wealthy would no longer be able to avoid income tax through capital gains.  The trouble is that government is too bloated to support itself.  It's like Jabba the Hutt or Big Pun at this point.  Just look at Medicare or Social Security!

Elennsar

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Re: Not a Troll: Tell me why the rich should have higher taxes.
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2008, 08:25:00 AM »
Social Security?

You think the government is bloated because of that?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Try actually living on what they pay. Seriously.

This is bloated in the same sense Timon is bloated.
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Callix

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Re: Not a Troll: Tell me why the rich should have higher taxes.
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2008, 08:35:03 AM »
Actually, a flat tax would be beneficial, if you taxed all things equally.  The so-called wealthy would no longer be able to avoid income tax through capital gains.  The trouble is that government is too bloated to support itself.  It's like Jabba the Hutt or Big Pun at this point.  Just look at Medicare or Social Security!
It's called "regressive taxation" for a reason. I'd support a flat tax on discretionary income, but the beauracracy involved in determining how much of your income is disposable would be completely impossible. So we fall back on a nearby yardstick: if you make a lot of money, odds are a lot of it doesn't go to things you need. So we tax those likely to have more discretionary income more heavily. It's not perfect, but it's the best way to avoid screwing everyone over or making the Tax Office the primary employer of the nation.

Also, Medicare and Social Security are not bloated government ideals. They are pivotal parts of several well-developed national economies, where "no-one left behind" is more than a line in a speech. The Scandinavian countries have a strong tradition of high taxation and high expenditure, and it has yielded some of the best-educated, healthiest, and happiest citizens in the world, without crashing their economies or choking out big business. Siemens, Nokia, IKEA and other major international companies continue to work there because they can guarantee competent, healthy and well-fed workers, who can work efficiently, rather than just cheaply.
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Elennsar

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Re: Not a Troll: Tell me why the rich should have higher taxes.
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2008, 08:41:39 AM »
Not to derail, but I always wondered where IKEA was from. Interesting.

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Blade2718

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Re: Not a Troll: Tell me why the rich should have higher taxes.
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2008, 08:44:25 AM »
Also, Medicare and Social Security are not bloated government ideals. They are pivotal parts of several well-developed national economies...
Pivotal?  And truly bloated is American military spending, since people want to ignore the previous two issues.

Callix

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Re: Not a Troll: Tell me why the rich should have higher taxes.
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2008, 09:21:33 AM »
Also, Medicare and Social Security are not bloated government ideals. They are pivotal parts of several well-developed national economies...
Pivotal?  And truly bloated is American military spending, since people want to ignore the previous two issues.
Definitely. I'm not saying you shouldn't cut expenditure. But making sure everyone is well fed, well educated, and healthy are very important in keeping your workforce skilled and job-ready. By having strong welfare, public education and public health systems, you can make sure that there's a difference between your workers and the ones in Nigeria. And that means that lucrative, high-tech industries are more likely to start and remain in your country. That is pivotal to the successes of Sweden, Denmark, Norway and Finland.

Back on topic, government spending, especially US government spending, could be less. But to make it so small that even the poorest could bear a flat tax would render it incapable of anything beyond the most rudimentary of services. And that just means that instead of paying taxes, people pay market prices for things they need. And when there's a market that absolutely must have the product (food, housing, health care, etc), then people are wide open to get screwed on the price. The rich can afford to pay. The poor can't. So let's avoid a little human suffering and make sure everyone can get by.

It would be great if we lived in a world where philanthropy and good feelings provided for the needs of the poor. If this were so, we could save a huge amount of money in organising and pursuing general taxation, and more of that money would go where it was needed. But we don't, and we can't, in good conscience, stand back and condemn people to generations of poverty because other people weren't nice enough. The rich pay a disroportionate amount of the tax burden because we need to alleviate human suffering, and the rich can afford to do it. It may not be fair, but it's the right thing to do.
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Runestar

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Re: Not a Troll: Tell me why the rich should have higher taxes.
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2008, 09:37:25 AM »
I personally still prefer a form of forced savings scheme, such as Singapore's CPF system, where a portion of your salary is locked away (and your employer makes a matching contribution), and you can withdraw it only after reaching a certain age. IMO, it aligns your interests with that of the government's perfectly. Both have an incentive in making sure you work, and keep working all the way.

As for why the rich should be taxed more? I don't really think it is so much an issue of whether it is fair or not, but more of it serving the greater good. Take more money from those who need it the least, and give it to those who require it the most. Keeps the majority of the population happy, and ensure that they will not revolt and continue to vote for you in the next general elections.  :D
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Not a Troll: Tell me why the rich should have higher taxes.
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2008, 09:47:37 AM »
I'd just like to add one thing to this. What incentive is there to get rich if it just means losing a lot more? See also: Welfare. Discouraging people striving just means they settle for the lowest common denominator.

Don't expect too much from me here, I just want to see what others have to say about that.
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Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

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Elennsar

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Re: Not a Troll: Tell me why the rich should have higher taxes.
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2008, 09:52:24 AM »
Okay, let's say you have 80 apples.
I have 20.  +60 apples for you, or 4:1.

You get taxed for 40 apples. I get taxed for 5 apples.

You have 40 apples.
I have 15 apples. +25 apples for you, or 8:5.

You're still getting rewarded considerably more than me.
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X-Codes

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Re: Not a Troll: Tell me why the rich should have higher taxes.
« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2008, 10:07:14 AM »
I'd just like to add one thing to this. What incentive is there to get rich if it just means losing a lot more? See also: Welfare. Discouraging people striving just means they settle for the lowest common denominator.

Don't expect too much from me here, I just want to see what others have to say about that.
Because the rate at which your income increases is never out-paced by the rate at which your taxes increase (and if it ever is, then the country you live in is SERIOUSLY fucked).

Anyway, all of you have put forward good moral ideals about why it should be one way or another, so I'm going to add an economic one as to why the rich should pay higher taxes:  The way an economy benefits people is if the money keeps moving.  It doesn't matter where it moves so long as everyone gets a chance to earn and spend some of it.  It's like a really complex and well-maintained hydraulic pump, and when someone's making more than they can spend the pump springs a leak and pressure is lost, slowing down the whole system.  In order to compensate for that, any real economy has a banking system that will accept excess leaks as savings and checking accounts and then use that money to back loans and credit cards.  Most also have a stock market where excess cash can flow into businesses, giving them capital with which they can grow and produce more.  Generally speaking, though, these are not permanent solutions.  Savings get spent on splurges and emergencies, loans get defaulted on causing the bank to lose money, and any stock market has ups and downs which can discourage people from participating or cause participants to back out.  In most of the specific instances involved here, the government has taxes in place to take some of the leaking caused by these things and pull it all back into the economy by spending it on infrastructure, public works projects, national defense, and other stuff.

The fact is, high taxes on rich people and low taxes on poor and middle-class people still benefit the rich people in the end, even if the benefits are not as obvious as they are with the lower classes.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Not a Troll: Tell me why the rich should have higher taxes.
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2008, 10:39:50 AM »
My reward ratio went from a 300% gain to a 60% gain, or I have lost 80% of my incentive to strive to improve. So now my effort is worth 5 times less. Drastic drops like that tend to throw things to the opposite end of the cost/benefit check. In other words, it is no longer worth it for me to put in the extra effort, since it's mostly being sucked away to some useless moocher I don't care about.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Elennsar

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Re: Not a Troll: Tell me why the rich should have higher taxes.
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2008, 10:45:06 AM »
It is not worth it to you if you want a 300% gain.

If you want to 'benefit from your hard work", you are still doing so. And I screwed up the Math...8:3, not 8:5.

You have nearly three times as many apples as me. Now, if you worked more than three times as hard, maybe you are being "cheated". But the odds that you did aren't very good.

Similarly, most of those apples are being used to benefit everyone.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Not a Troll: Tell me why the rich should have higher taxes.
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2008, 10:50:48 AM »
Everyone is useless to me. And by that I mean few people are useful, so giving the results of my efforts to everyone is a waste of my resources. Ok then, a third of a loss. That is a bit easier to justify, but it still means I am being forced to waste my resources.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Callix

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Re: Not a Troll: Tell me why the rich should have higher taxes.
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2008, 10:51:39 AM »
My reward ratio went from a 300% gain to a 60% gain, or I have lost 80% of my incentive to strive to improve. So now my effort is worth 5 times less. Drastic drops like that tend to throw things to the opposite end of the cost/benefit check. In other words, it is no longer worth it for me to put in the extra effort, since it's mostly being sucked away to some useless moocher I don't care about.
You lost 33% of your advantage. But how much of that was disposable? If, say, 10 apples is our "poverty line", where we call spending necessary, then you had 7 times the discretionary apples Elennsar had before tax, and now you have 6 times. You lost less than 15% of your discretionary advantage. And discretionary spending is all reward, whereas necessary spending is just that: necessary, not fun.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Not a Troll: Tell me why the rich should have higher taxes.
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2008, 10:57:37 AM »
The more extra I make the more of a safeguard I have against random failings and the less dependent I am on individual paychecks. Considering the state of the (American) economy, the less you have to rely on others the better off you are. So now I survive for less time after an economy failure, because some leech sucked away some of my extra.

Are we having fun with the Devil's Advocacy yet?
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Elennsar

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Re: Not a Troll: Tell me why the rich should have higher taxes.
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2008, 11:01:49 AM »
Having fun with someone determined to be a Devil's advocate is almost as impossible as having fun with someone being a troll.

I don't mean this as an insult. But any halfwit devil's advocate can -always- argue back, no matter -what- you say.

"I don't care about the greater whole! So what if it is better for every single other being!"

So...gah. I have to say it. Again, no insult intended. It's just...frustrating.
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CountArioch

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Re: Not a Troll: Tell me why the rich should have higher taxes.
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2008, 11:05:25 AM »
Basically, the poor can't afford to give as much of their salary.  

I don't believe in higher taxes for the rich per se, the tax rate should get to a certain point and stay there.  But I do believe that the 30% or whatever that someone who makes $50,000 up is less onerous than making someone who makes $10,000 pay 30%.  Because really, both people are probably having the same expenses for "needs", it's just the $50,000 has a bit more in the "want" budget.

Really, I just get mad when my money is spent foolishly.  And I'm made when I'm REQUIRED to spend money to fix problems caused by the greed of others.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Not a Troll: Tell me why the rich should have higher taxes.
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2008, 11:17:37 AM »
Having fun with someone determined to be a Devil's advocate is almost as impossible as having fun with someone being a troll.

I don't mean this as an insult. But any halfwit devil's advocate can -always- argue back, no matter -what- you say.

"I don't care about the greater whole! So what if it is better for every single other being!"

So...gah. I have to say it. Again, no insult intended. It's just...frustrating.

Most of what I said actually is my beliefs, not just shit I'm making up to argue. However I am arguing about the opposite as most others here, so it still qualifies. Simple fact of the matter is that other people outside of my circles' needs are quite irrelevant to me, and taking my money to line their pockets is wholly undesirable. It would be tolerable if the person collecting my taxes was actually competent enough to make proper use of it so it is at least doing something useful and beneficial to me, but when he's really just stealing it to roll around in... fuck that shit.

99% of the world could drop dead right now and as long as it didn't catch any of the few people that matter to me it wouldn't bother me one iota until the corpses start rotting. That is a slight exaggeration but you get the idea. Even if it actually were better for those others, those others are not relevant to me.
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There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]