More Min, Less Max?

[AfterCrescent]

So here's the situation: I haven't gotten to play as a PC in 2-3 years since the last 'qualified' person to DM turned out to be a giant douchebag and I picked up DMing. Now one of my players is both A) qualified to be a DM and B) willing to try her hand at DMing. So I, along with two other people I know have been invited to play and take her DM cherry.

Here's where things get a bit difficult...
1) It's her first time DMing, so I VERY STRONGLY do not want to break her game. (To that extent I've already mentally outlawed things along the line of SCM)
2) The other two players are very much NOT optimizers, so while I need to be able to hold my own and get them out of trouble if need be, I don't want to outshine them drastically, either.
3) I want to make sure I don't overshadow either of them either.

One player is a Knight (warforged). The other player is going to play a half-elf druid. And while I know we all realize how powerful druids can be, he's not really going to outshine anything with it. And I don't mean that as an insult, but his interpretation of good, is suspect. He thinks Hexblade spells are good...


I've got a few ideas, and right now I'm looking for ideas and pros/cons for these ideas.  Short of the Binder/Totemist suggestion, I've decided that whatever I play is going to be a caster (although those two are arguably casters...)

Books Banned: XPH, CPsi, ToB, ToM, MoI
Starting level: 3

1) Focused Conjurer
2) Focused Transmuter
3) Focused Abjurer (Going Io7V)
4) Generalist Wizard
5) Cleric Archer
6) Archivist Archer
7) Either a Binder or Totemist, if I can talk the DM into one of those (if they'll fit). They're both classes I've been interested in trying out.

[BowenSilverclaw]

Well, you're obviously lacking an arcane spellcaster, so I'd personally go with a Wizard.

As for which one, my personal choice would be a (Focused) Conjurer. It gets you plenty of BC which not only makes you useful to the party, but also means the other PCs get to do the actual killing.
Even though you may have made a huge contribution to a fight, for the somewhat newer and/or less CO-savvy players it won't look as if their characters aren't doing anything.

If you can take the Transmutation Domain Wizard (UA), do it. It'll get you more versatility and will make you last longer, while also helping the other PCs with buffs.

And ofcourse Abrupt Jaunt is great to get out of a tight spot should the need arise, something that might happen a little bit more often with a small party.


All pretty basic things really, but maybe you can get some use out of them.

Good luck,
Bowen

[X-Codes]

That's pretty much it: GOD Wizard.  Don't specialize in Evocation or Necromancy but otherwise do whatever.  With the given information, I'd probably go with an Elf Generalist.  Some schools would gain or lose value depending on what exactly the one guy plays, but I don't think I'd go with Focused Specialist honestly.

[Omen of Peace]

Transmuter Wizard: optimize people against their will by buffing them. War Weaver would be perfect of course.

[woodenbandman]

Why not play a bard? You get party buffs and useful spells, and you'll have to make tough choices about which battlefield control spells you want to buy in a wand/staff. In fact, see if you can get access to prestige bard. It loses you 9th level spells, but you specifically said that you don't want to break the game, and with all the lovely things like shapechange, timestop, prismatic sphere, and the like, the temptation will probably be too great for you to break the game. If you optimize the hell out of the bard, you can do whatever your nonoptimal party mates can. With Master's touch you can contribute with a spiked chain and take a few feats that give you some lockdown. You can cast spells well. You can't heal as a prestige bard, but you can use wands of mass lesser vigor and scrolls of mass heal in dire situations. You can take a rogue level or two and trapfind... you'll basically be an all around use ful party member.

[AfterCrescent]

Bowen: Can't specialize and take the Transmutation Domain (unless those were two different suggestions >.>).  Abrupt Jaunt and BFC were the key reasons I was looking toward Conjuration. Since those won't actually overshadow anyone and Conjuration has so many wonderful subschools.

X-Codes: Why wouldn't you Focus Specialize?  The elf generalist is a possibility, though... Thanks

Omen: Okay, here's the big question - Without ANY buffing (and without the standard "GOD" response) what does a Transmuter have going for it?  I was thinking about it last night and it seems like the key options for Transmuters (and I admit I haven't played one before) are 1) Buffing and 2) Polymorph. Am I missing something major?

wooden: A few problems, not the first of which is that the bard needs SEVERE optimizing to be viable. It's just an annoyingly weak caster type (IMO). If I wanted to do some kind of lockdown build, I could do that via a duskblade much better than by bard.  However, I suppose prestige bard may have its use (??). I'd have to read up on it. Although, what would you suggest as a base for prestige bard? It seems like bards tend towards snowflake wardance (melee - overshadows someone) or Virtuoso/Sublime Chord (I forget which one advances casting, but that's a mad late bloomer...)


On a side note, and I'll edit the original post - One player decided on a warforged knight. I just heard mention of paladin, but I doubt that. Either way, Knight/Paladins are about the same team role.

[BowenSilverclaw]

Bowen: Can't specialize and take the Transmutation Domain

I guess I missed that part, nevermind then 

[Risada]

Omen: Okay, here's the big question - Without ANY buffing (and without the standard "GOD" response) what does a Transmuter have going for it?  I was thinking about it last night and it seems like the key options for Transmuters (and I admit I haven't played one before) are 1) Buffing and 2) Polymorph. Am I missing something major?

It's not major, but there are some Transmutation blasts (some spells at the SpC I don't remember), as well as some debuffing (Ray of Clumsiness, Earthbind, Ironthunder horn, various breath weapon-enhancing spells)....

Going the Conjurer route might be a better choice than Transmuter....

[GawainBS]

Completely off-topic, so sorry to AC for hijacking his thread. But where can I find the Focused Specialists? I hear so much about them. Thanks in advance!

As for my two cents: I'd also go for the elf Generalist.

[Risada]

Completely off-topic, so sorry to AC for hijacking his thread. But where can I find the Focused Specialists? I hear so much about them. Thanks in advance!

As for my two cents: I'd also go for the elf Generalist.

Complete mage pg 34.

[GawainBS]

Thanks.

[AndyJames]

Summoning Focused Conjurers run out of steam at higher levels. If your game goes up to that level, then it might be a better choice for not outshining the other guys. Malconvoker...!

[AfterCrescent]

It's not major, but there are some Transmutation blasts (some spells at the SpC I don't remember), as well as some debuffing (Ray of Clumsiness, Earthbind, Ironthunder horn, various breath weapon-enhancing spells)....

Going the Conjurer route might be a better choice than Transmuter....

Oh man, if this was gestalt, I'd be so tempted to go DFA with a focused transmuter for those breath spell. >.> It'd just be so fun.

Summoning Focused Conjurers run out of steam at higher levels. If your game goes up to that level, then it might be a better choice for not outshining the other guys. Malconvoker...!

Um, what? How does Gate run out of steam? And Malconvoker does anything but run out of steam.

[AndyJames]

The SM range runs out. Gate is ignored because it doesn't matter what you are playing with, as long as you don't ban Conjuration, it is practically an auto-win button.

[AfterCrescent]

While SM runs out of steam, that's not the only tool a minion based conjurer would have. That's like only using your left leg to walk. Planar binding and all that crap. SM is just 1 tool.

[AndyJames]

Aren't that many left after about level 6. PB is good, and Gate. About it, IIRC.

[AfterCrescent]

Hrm, that may be true. Although I think being a minion based conjurer may step on the shoes of the druid, if he goes that route... I'll have to see what route he's going with that druid.

[awaken DM golem]

2/3rd Omen of Peace
1/3rd X-codes

I buff you.
I buff the other you.
I cast web.
"Shoot arrows at the monster."
"Can I have the pretty ring, guys?"

[Omen of Peace]

Omen: Okay, here's the big question - Without ANY buffing (and without the standard "GOD" response) what does a Transmuter have going for it?  I was thinking about it last night and it seems like the key options for Transmuters (and I admit I haven't played one before) are 1) Buffing and 2) Polymorph. Am I missing something major?

I assume you mean combat stuff - Transmutation has a lot of utility too. If so: yes, you're mostly right. Risada mentioned the small bit of debuffing (Ray of Clumsiness, Slow...) ; at higher levels there are SoD, unclassifiable awesome spells (Telekinesis), etc...

Conjuration is undeniably better than Transmutation at low levels, but it can be overshadowing when, say, your Glitterdust ends the fight by blinding 4 out of 5 enemies.

wooden: A few problems, not the first of which is that the bard needs SEVERE optimizing to be viable. It's just an annoyingly weak caster type (IMO). If I wanted to do some kind of lockdown build, I could do that via a duskblade much better than by bard.  However, I suppose prestige bard may have its use (??). I'd have to read up on it. Although, what would you suggest as a base for prestige bard? It seems like bards tend towards snowflake wardance (melee - overshadows someone) or Virtuoso/Sublime Chord (I forget which one advances casting, but that's a mad late bloomer...)

I was actually going to recommend Bard but it wasn't in your list so I steered clear of it. With a Badge of Valor (cheap) & the Inspirational Boost spell you give a very nice +3 atk & dmg. You don't have to go for Words of Creation or Song of the Heart if you don't want to : get Melodic Casting (MIC) and have fun with Grease and/or illusions (Silent Image) for instance.
Though at level 3 you're short on spell slots...

[InnaBinder]

Hrm, that may be true. Although I think being a minion based conjurer may step on the shoes of the druid, if he goes that route... I'll have to see what route he's going with that druid.

Based on experience with another sub-par optimizer using Druid, he's very likely to be focusing on things like Flame Strike, and making a faux-voker with his Druid.  Even if that's not the case, spamming the battlefield with monsters is an effective strategy that those with less experience often perceive as less awesome than it really is, since 'you didn't do the damage yourself'.  It's a really solid idea to let your character be useful without making the DM feel overwhelmed or making the other players feel outclassed, if done intelligently - which doesn't seem to be in question at all here.

Update: One way to avoid issues with encounter-enders like Glitterdust is to make them your second-tier choices for a given level.  In other words, take a useful but not known powerhouse spell at 3rd level - anything from Protection from Arrows to Melf's Acid Arrow, or similar based on party needs - and use Glitterdust as the spell you learn at 4th level, so the other players have some time in the spotlight without you feeling gimped entirely.