Author Topic: Rebalancing Compendium [Rebalancing 3.5]  (Read 53570 times)

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ZeroSpace

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Re: Rebalancing Compendium [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #120 on: April 29, 2009, 09:00:52 PM »
I know you've already completed the Rebalancing, RobbyPants, but I've recently started a Pnp Slayers game. I'll get back to you with more info on the casting system, but first glance shows it appears half decent. Even the harder spells to cast (Fort Save DC 50+) aren't that bad, mainly because 9/10's are straight blasting spells. The only really nasty one is a single target spell, out to med range, that hits for 3d6 Str and Dex damage, with a will save for half. Very useful debuff, especially when the DC for that will save is typically around 29. Not too much actual play experience, but it lets casters contribute, while also having a built-in safety valve. I'll keep you posted about the system.

Also, I am gathering players for a game based on the system. Feel free to join the game, PM me if you want in.
YAY! I get to go to the SPECIAL hell!

"The picks aren't breaking through, sir!"
"Alright men, time to break out the greatswords!"

"You may not make money being a bad-ass!"
-My DM

RobbyPants

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Re: Rebalancing Compendium [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #121 on: April 29, 2009, 09:05:31 PM »
I wouldn't say I've completed it, but just that I wanted to get a PDF up.  There are discussions currently going on in the various sub-threads.  I don't think I want to make any changes so drastic as modifying how casting works, however. ;)
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

ZeroSpace

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Re: Rebalancing Compendium [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #122 on: April 30, 2009, 12:36:55 AM »
Fair enough, but if you want, you can still join. So far, I've got one person interested, and I only posted the notice today. If I can get you, plus one or two more after that, I can get something started with the mods.
YAY! I get to go to the SPECIAL hell!

"The picks aren't breaking through, sir!"
"Alright men, time to break out the greatswords!"

"You may not make money being a bad-ass!"
-My DM

Midnight_v

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Re: Rebalancing Compendium [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #123 on: May 01, 2009, 11:42:49 AM »
Speaking of casting.....
Quote
Add additional abilities based on the damage type of the spell.  This part is still just brainstorming, but hopefully it gives you an idea of what I'm thinking (some from Ubernoob):
Ubernoob? That was me, actually. Jus' saying. Honestly I like the extra damage solution MUCH better. Thats the right path.


Quote
Save or Dies
All save or dies take a full round to cast (not to be confused with a full-round action), assuming the casting time isn't already longer. The simple fix is to increase the setup time for the spell.  Give the opponents a chance to react, so it's not a simple "roll a d20 or die!".  Now tactics come into play.
That's so freaking awesome! I never get over how much I like that change...




Quote
Crowd Control
Crowd control is somewhat of a large category.  This can be broken down into other types, such as debuffs, terrain modification, and save-or-lose spells.  Now, it's the SoLs that are the most potent, generally speaking, as they can often have the same effect as an SoD.  Any spell that would impose a status on a target that limits the actions they can take is more potent than one that merely gives a penalty.  So, any spell that gives any of the following conditions to the target will have a casting time of one full round (assuming the casting time isn't already longer):[/color]

Blinded
Confused
Dazed
Disabled
Dying
Fascinated
Frightened
Helpless
Nauseated
Panicked
Paralyzed
Petrified
Staggered
Stunned
Unconscious
___________

Spells with a Casting Time of an Entire Round

Once the caster decides to cast a spell with a casting time of one full round, he cannot change the spell, although, he can opt to stop casting before the spell goes off and save the spell slot.  The target/AoE does not need to be picked until the spell goes off, so the caster can dynamically target as needed.  If no valid target is available (or desirable), then the caster can dismiss the spell at the last minute.
I am still not happy with this.
Not nearly.
I think I know why too...
Only "fog" spells work now... Acid fog for the win.
Its unaffected by all of this. So is Evards... Not that this is a bad thing I WANT Battlefield control to be a viable option.
Then again blindness "Mass" I suppose isn't needed perse. . .
Hmm... It's just that it upsets the scale somewhat. Fighters are good at disruption now. Wizards are more easily disruptable. Evocation is great. Conjuration is weaker... Its hard to stomach somehow.
I guess things can still be slowed and knocked down so... okay.
Great job.
I'm working on the Psiwar 6 tonight and tommorow. Hopefully its up to par.
-M_v
\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"

RobbyPants

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Re: Rebalancing Compendium [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #124 on: May 01, 2009, 01:29:06 PM »
Speaking of casting.....
Quote
Add additional abilities based on the damage type of the spell.  This part is still just brainstorming, but hopefully it gives you an idea of what I'm thinking (some from Ubernoob):
Ubernoob? That was me, actually. Jus' saying. Honestly I like the extra damage solution MUCH better. Thats the right path.
You might have suggested something first, but I'm remembering a post he made back in the original thread in early September.

The idea is to use both the extra damage and the extra effects.  I don't know;  maybe extra damage is good enough.  It just didn't seem like enough to me.  My only concern is force effects knocking opponents down, as it steals actions, whereas the other damage types don't do this.


Quote
Save or Dies
All save or dies take a full round to cast (not to be confused with a full-round action), assuming the casting time isn't already longer. The simple fix is to increase the setup time for the spell.  Give the opponents a chance to react, so it's not a simple "roll a d20 or die!".  Now tactics come into play.
That's so freaking awesome! I never get over how much I like that change...
I like the idea too for a lot of reasons.  In all fairness, I need to give credit to OW4 for this idea.


Quote
Crowd Control
I am still not happy with this.
Not nearly.
I think I know why too...
Only "fog" spells work now... Acid fog for the win.
Its unaffected by all of this. So is Evards... Not that this is a bad thing I WANT Battlefield control to be a viable option.
Then again blindness "Mass" I suppose isn't needed perse. . .
Hmm... It's just that it upsets the scale somewhat. Fighters are good at disruption now. Wizards are more easily disruptable. Evocation is great. Conjuration is weaker... Its hard to stomach somehow.
I guess things can still be slowed and knocked down so... okay.
Great job.
I'm working on the Psiwar 6 tonight and tommorow. Hopefully its up to par.
-M_v
Yeah, I guess some other good spells still escape based on these parameters.  Perhaps things that reduce your movement to half or less could fall into this category too.  That would also throw things like Grease and Entangle in here, which might be overkill.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2009, 01:31:06 PM by RobbyPants »
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Midnight_v

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Re: Rebalancing Compendium [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #125 on: May 01, 2009, 01:36:44 PM »
Right. Right, I actually don't want things like that in there, so I guess it works.
*sigh*. Moving on.
\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"

RobbyPants

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Re: Rebalancing Compendium [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #126 on: May 01, 2009, 04:16:12 PM »
Well, you do have a point.  Even in a core-only game, the solid fog spells are great because they almost always work.  No save, no SR, you basically need to teleport, become ethereal, or incorporeal to get out.  Otherwise, it's a sure thing.

Now, if other crowd control spells are getting nerfed with increased casting times, that makes these already good spells better by comparision.

I suppose one fix (albiet a clunky one) could be to list the solid fog spells as "abusive" spells and increase their casting time specifically, without bringing Grease and Entangle into the mix.  Does this sound better?
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Midnight_v

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Re: Rebalancing Compendium [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #127 on: May 01, 2009, 06:08:11 PM »
Well, you do have a point.  Even in a core-only game, the solid fog spells are great because they almost always work.  No save, no SR, you basically need to teleport, become ethereal, or incorporeal to get out.  Otherwise, it's a sure thing.

Now, if other crowd control spells are getting nerfed with increased casting times, that makes these already good spells better by comparision.

I suppose one fix (albiet a clunky one) could be to list the solid fog spells as "abusive" spells and increase their casting time specifically, without bringing Grease and Entangle into the mix.  Does this sound better?

No! You are going the opposite direction!  :banghead I'm saying battlefield control is TOO freaking unviable as to freaking not exist!
At LEAST one can still cast "Fog cloud" or tentcles or, wall of X or something!
 Which is why I *sigh* it almost nerfed into oblivion. Well its almost like "Thou shalt not play this" in a way its an "unnattractive option. It'll come out in playtesting I'm sure, though.
Basically all of the spells that do those things are just Tooo disruptable.
So soon as the wizard starts changin "Oh, Darkness beyond twilight bleeding..." he gets smacked in the mouth and his spell fizzles.
  Since everyone knows he's the wizard and has time to interupt him now...  I don't know I dont' have a solution for this now though... its one of the few things that really bother me about the system so far.
  I'm trying to make it fair for all archtypes... I guess it may not be as bad as I imagine because people use summoning still, but it just seems like battlefield control won't work if all the enemies do in the time you cast is move up to you companions. Then its yeah cast onto all your friends if you like but...
you've already failed at battlefield control.
...and know the "you can keep your spell slot" doesn't fix that.
Keep the battlefiled controler able to control the battlefield.
I suppose now it still exists it just has been moved towards actuall manipulation of terrain and obscurement and the such. Which is okay I guess... because the role should have the chance to Exist.
\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"

RobbyPants

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Re: Rebalancing Compendium [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #128 on: May 01, 2009, 06:52:46 PM »
I agree that we'll have to playtest to see what it will be like.

It might be too much of a problem for casters to get interupted.  Although, the only spells I threw onto the list are spells that affect your opponent's actions.  If you beging casting a spell and your opponent takes an action to either interupt you or to get out of the way, then you forced his hand with your action, so you're still controling his actions to an extent.  Of course, it would be stupid to cast such a spell if your opponent could simply charge you; you'd only want to attempt a stunt like that if you had someone there to keep him at bay.

Do you have any other ideas how to nerf crowd control to a lesser degree?  I wanted to do something because it's already good as-is, and with save-or-dies nerfed, I was afraid crowd control would simply become the obvious choice.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Midnight_v

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  • Posts: 2660
  • Dulce et decorum est pro alea mori.
Re: Rebalancing Compendium [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #129 on: May 01, 2009, 08:09:49 PM »
Quote
Do you have any other ideas how to nerf crowd control to a lesser degree?  I wanted to do something because it's already good as-is, and with save-or-dies nerfed, I was afraid crowd control would simply become the obvious choice.
Forgive me cousin... not yet.
\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"

Pyrefox

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Re: Rebalancing Compendium [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #130 on: May 05, 2009, 09:50:22 PM »
I didn't read everything (yet), but I first disagree with this:

"Bard
No changes."

I don't think the Bards are balanced with anything... o_o Why don't give them some metasong bonus feats (I know there's something like that in some book) or some "expert" bonus feats (like skill focus, deceitful, and such)?

Poor Bard feels ignored when he reads the Fighter new buffs D:


And btw, why limit the Druid's spells? i-i
« Last Edit: May 05, 2009, 09:53:12 PM by Pyrefox »

RobbyPants

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Re: Rebalancing Compendium [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #131 on: May 06, 2009, 12:47:56 AM »
I'll be honest that when it comes to bards, I know very little.  No other changes were suggested by anyone else, so I didn't push it.  Now, I think a lot of their power comes from some books I don't own either.  I think when someone asserts that they're tier 3, they're using material I don't use.

OW4 did mention some problems with the bard over at FLGS, but we never discussed any actual changes.  Some problems come from needing so many perform skills to play a bard effectively.

As for the druid, so much of the cleric's and druid's power comes form the fact that they have access to their entire spell list.  I figure, this move isn't really hitting the power of the druid so much as its versatility.  The cleric received similar nerfs by having their spell list modified with more emphasis put on their domains.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Midnight_v

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  • Dulce et decorum est pro alea mori.
Re: Rebalancing Compendium [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #132 on: May 06, 2009, 02:35:55 AM »
Hmm... I disagree, bards work. . .

Moving on... did we ever fix grappling?
\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"

RobbyPants

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Re: Rebalancing Compendium [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #133 on: May 06, 2009, 01:13:27 PM »
It was discussed, but we never really agreed on what was broken about it to begin with.  Obviously it's a bit clunky, but half of the suggested fixes made that worse.  I seem to remember someone (Psychic_Robot?) coming up with a simple fix that might work.  I'll post it here if I find it.

Edit
At this point, I want to move this to the Combat & Rules thread

The quick ruleset was by ZeroSum.  It tracks the degree of success on the check.  Here's a link to his post.  Looking back on it, I'm not sure that an approach like this will work, but in all fairness, we need to decide what we want fixed before we try fixing it.

Potential issues:
  • Clunky mechanic - too hard to learn/too impractical to use
  • Defeated entirely by FoM
  • Hard to stay competitive at higher levels with monster's BAB scaling with increased hit dice, huge Str mods, and/or very large sizes.
  • Am I missing anything else?


« Last Edit: May 06, 2009, 01:37:37 PM by RobbyPants »
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Pyrefox

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 37
Re: Rebalancing Compendium [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #134 on: May 07, 2009, 03:30:35 PM »
I mentioned the spell list restriction because, as the druid field are the places where you use survival, their spell choice for a day would be better if they could prepare differently for each kind of environment. You can do things like "today I go as a protector/healer", "today I'll get something to strike those cold subtype creatures", today I'll support attack power and strategy to my party (as controler in 4e)". I liked how the druid could handle any kind of environment, but I do agree the cleric is too much, as they have access to other things the druids don't (as heavy armor).

About the Bard, a few years ago, I built something different for the Bard. If you like, I could send you that and you could judge if you find something adaptable or useful. Just ask me (here or PM).

Cya! o/

Soda

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Re: Rebalancing Compendium [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #135 on: May 09, 2009, 07:06:51 PM »
Clarifying spell lists:

Is it correct that the cleric is now a spontaneous caster with the whole new cleric list plus his domains as spells known?

Is it correct the druid is now a spontaneous caster who chooses spells known similar to a sorcerer?

Do they both have spells per day as the phb?

The druid seems fine, but if the cleric point is correct, I have a first level cleric who already knows:

Level 1
Bane
Bless
Bless Water
Cure Light Wounds
Curse Water
Detect Chaos/Evil/Good/Law
Detect Undead
Endure Elements
Inflict Light Wounds
Magic Weapon
Remove Fear
Shield of Faith

Plus 6 domains spells.

RobbyPants

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Re: Rebalancing Compendium [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #136 on: May 10, 2009, 12:55:08 AM »
Yes, that is all correct.

The only thing that I don't know was specified is that the cleric doesn't count the domain bonus spells in the spells per day table anymore.

The cleric does pick up a lot of spells now, but they have less choice of which ones they get compared to the sorcerer or druid.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Midnight_v

  • Organ Grinder
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  • Posts: 2660
  • Dulce et decorum est pro alea mori.
Re: Rebalancing Compendium [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #137 on: May 10, 2009, 01:30:43 AM »
  Okay... I'm hard pressed to argue with the cleric or druid changes, but I still don't like them. I just watch them get over punished for being the "obvious offenders" of unbalancedness.  and *shrug*.
All in all I don't think monkeying around with the spelllists and type of caster was good.  :pout
Leave it at that for now.
I DO like the changes to sorceror.
The changes to wizard ... should not have been made. I really think we were better off changing the wizard on a game breaking spell to game breaking spell basis.
  Look at it like this... you fix pun-pun and the dragonwroght kobold by what? Fixing two particular feats/spells.  WE fixed it by changing the kobold race... to simply less worth playing in comparison to all the other races.

There was nothing wrong with the wizard except for outrageous spell power.
After the spell effects were "nuked" en masse to take more rounds(or whatever)  AND almost all the Martial characters can become super major badass, not lettting you casts spells *fighter not caring if you casts spells * fighter *barbarian *Monk. Or just making casting spells less that optimal in general then there was no reason to limit the spell lists like that.
Shake it off, mettle, diamond soul... I can't remeber what Owa's paladin did but it had a spell defense also.
Its all bad.
Also. The rubric is on the table that any spell that removes peoples actions costs a full round to cast, right?
But a monk can stunning fist everyone, the fighter can foil up to 3 people around (well that plus his lunging AoO)... and thats not just the stuff we created. Warblade, and crusaders can stun people pretty easily.
all as standard actions.
  I took me a while to figure out why I thought the full round actions were so "WRONG" it's because we wanted to move to the Tob for power level but things like that exist there. That coupled with the fact that casters are still frail ... why the hell would anyone play something that is offensively irrelavant, except for throwing fireballs?
From an objective standpoint. there needs to be some rehasing.
Mostly because I think there wasn't enough discussion in the second half (i.e. last 4 months) of what was wrong before we changed anything.
Cleric for example. What was wrong with the cleric?
The major thing I heard people saying was that it could do everything... Frankly I'm not against that really.
I just don't think it shuold be able to do everything at once.
There are a few spells that should only exist on domain lists that are on the base cleric list.
Divine Power should exist... as is... Only on the War and strength domain. Not on the main cleric list probbably.
Clerics are the most customizable because different gods have differnt standards, and really I'm okay with that. Why?
Simple. Everyone else is capable of doing what they do so much better after the non-caster changes.
As a rebalanced fighter... I will gladly play that in a game where the cleric can cast divine power.
Its ok. My job is to hit things with my sword yes but HE's not better than me at it anymore or at least not blantantly so.
Damn... this turned into a rant.  forgive me I'll move this to the casters thread if you prefer, Rp.

M_v

\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"

RobbyPants

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Re: Rebalancing Compendium [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #138 on: May 10, 2009, 01:02:01 PM »
I do agree that the changes to the cleric seem more like a house-rule than a necessary fix.  I think something needs to be done about them though...
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

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[/spoiler]

Soda

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Re: Rebalancing Compendium [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #139 on: May 10, 2009, 06:59:57 PM »
I think the cleric is at least a good attempt. I hold the opinion that the cleric's casting should be largely largely based on his domains. After all, a cleric of the god of healing would grace his followers with the power to heal, wouldn't he? Not the power to grow 10 feet and shoot lasers from your eyes. Of course, don't pigeon-hole him completely, but a big chunk of his spells should be from the domains of creation his god presides over.

EDIT- More rules: how to the improved turn undead and rebuke undead feats work with alternate turning? Can I daze evil outsiders with the good domain and improved turning? I don't think that's a bad application, but rebuking all those alternate things might be too much.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2009, 07:17:16 PM by Soda »