Darfellan Harpooning Incarnate

[BoSheck]

This is for Aftercrescent's game, provided I'm given a slot, if not I'll save it and use it another time--this build has been floating around in my head for a while and I really wanted to get it down and make it work.
Looks like pretty much any source material was open (I steer away from mongoose.  Though it's just WotC/Web enhancements, and Dragon mags for me.  Thats what we usually allow locally anyway )
[spoiler]Wheek'ti'kikik
Darfellan Incarnate

Medium Humanoid (Darfellan)
Hit Dice: 1d6+3
Initiative: +1
Speed: 20ft, Swim 40ft
Armor Class: 14  Touch: 11 Flat-footed: 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/+4
Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d6+6) or Javelin  +4 ranged 30ft (1d10+4)
Space/Reach: 5ft/5ft
Special Qualities: Echolocation, Hold Breath (8x Con), Racial Hatred (Sahuagin)
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +1, Will +3,
Abilities: Str 19, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 8
Skills: Concentration +7, Knowledge: Arcana +2, Swim +12
Feats:  Brutal Throw, Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Harpoon, Shape Soulmeld: Mauling Gauntlets
Alignment: CN
Languages Spoken: Common, Darfellan
Equipment: 2 Harpoon, 3 Javelin, Studded Leather, Gear:  Backpack, Beltpouch, Blessed Bandage (3) Bedroll, Flint & Steel, 50 ft. Hemp Rope, 2 Sunrods, 10 Days trail rations, Waterskin, Dagger, 2x Caltrops, 70 GP
Flaws: Inattentive, Fussy (Dragon #328)
Soulmelds commonly shaped at 1st: Sighting Gloves(Hands), Mauling Gauntlets (Arms), I'm undecided on the third one.  [/spoiler]
Basic Harpoon build here.  Planning on probably dipping Psychic warrior for standard Expansion goodness plus access to psionic shot/fell shot.  Feat crunch going on there, though.  All the optimization I've read on harpoons says it's two-handed, but I'm not seeing that here in Frostburn or Stormwrack.  If that is the case I'll be purchasing a shield, also, to increase that pitiful AC.  Armor upgrade as money comes in.

Planned Build
[spoiler]
Incarnate.  Brutal Throw, Point Blank Shot, Shape Soulmeld: Mauling Gauntlets
Incarnate2
Incarnate3 EWP: Harpoon
Incarnate4
Incarnate4/Psywar1 - Precise Shot^b
Incarnate4/Psywar2 - Bonus Essentia, Psionic Shot^b
Inarnate5/Psywar2
Incarnate6/Psywar2
Incarnate7/Psywar2 Fell Shot
Incarnate8/Psywar2
Incarnate9/Psywar2
Incarnate10/Psywar2 Weapon Focus: Harpoon
Incarnate10/Psywar2/MasterThrower1 Quick Draw^b, (Doubletoss?)
Incarnate10/Psywar2/MasterThrower2
Incarnate10/Psywar2/MasterThrower3 Power Attack (Two with One Blow)
Incarnate10/Psywar2/MasterThrower4
Incarnate10/Psywar2/MasterThrower5 (Deadeye Shot)
Incarnate10/Psywar2/MasterThrower5/?  Power Throw
Incarnate10/Psywar2/MasterThrower5/?
Incarnate10/Psywar2/MasterThrower5/?[/spoiler]

The same build reworked with Fighter levels instead of Psywar:

[spoiler]Incarnate.  Brutal Throw, Point Blank Shot, Shape Soulmeld: Mauling Gauntlets
Incarnate2
Incarnate3 EWP: Harpoon
Incarnate4
Incarnate4/Fighter1 - Precise Shot^b
Incarnate4/Fighter2 - Bonus Essentia, Weapon Focus: Harpoon^b
Inarnate5/Fighter2
Incarnate6/Fighter2
Incarnate6/Fighter2/Master Thrower1: Quick Draw^b Power Attack(Doubletoss)
Incarnate6/Fighter2/Master Thrower2
Incarnate6/Fighter2/Master Thrower3 (Two with one Blow)
Incarnate6/Fighter2/Master Thrower4  Brutal Throw
Incarnate6/Fighter2/Master Thrower5 Improved Crit: Harpoon^b(Weak spot?)
Incarnate6/Fighter3/Master Thrower5/
Incarnate6/Fighter4/Master Thrower5/ Open, Weapon Specialization
Incarnate6/Fighter2/Master Thrower5/X
Incarnate6/Fighter2/Master Thrower5/X
Incarnate6/Fighter2/Master Thrower5/X  Open
Incarnate6/Fighter2/Master Thrower5?/X
Incarnate6/Fighter2/Master Thrower5/X
Bonus Essentia could be moved to 12, moving PA and Brutal throw up, I suppose.  Just brainstorming here.[/spoiler]


Build is not really complete yet.  Needs some work at the end . I'm pretty confident in surivability and power up to level 6.  Master Thrower is just there as kind of filler, as harpooning builds really have their greatest glory at lower and mid levels.  I'm at a loss what to do at the end, there.  Honestly fitting in an elemental bloodline might work better, the Water Elemental gets power attack as a bonus feat at 8 or earlier, which means I could delay Master Thrower and start Fell Shot/Power throwing about six levels earlier.  Feels reasonably solid, but not ka-broken.

I'd appreciate any input! 

[jameswilliamogle]

Can't take EWP w/o BAB +1.  Take PBS at 1st and use spears until you hit 3rd.

[BoSheck]

Can't take EWP w/o BAB +1.

Crap! I suck!

Time to move some stuff around then!

[PhoenixInferno]

I did not just see [PEACH] here, did I?  I mean, really?

EDIT: Also, I'm not sure why you use Incarnate - is it just for Mauling Gauntlets?  Why are you using Psychic Warrior?  For Fell Shot?  You can get the touch attack ability through Master Thrower, why not just try to qualify earlier?

[BoSheck]

I did not just see [PEACH] here, did I?  I mean, really?

Happy? 

[jameswilliamogle]

I did not just see [PEACH] here, did I?  I mean, really?

EDIT: Also, I'm not sure why you use Incarnate - is it just for Mauling Gauntlets?  Why are you using Psychic Warrior?  For Fell Shot?  You can get the touch attack ability through Master Thrower, why not just try to qualify earlier?

The Incarnate can add a little bit if going Chaotic.  Lucky Dice, Archer stuff (whatever it is), Mauling Gauntlet (via feat), the aura for ranged attacks.  I don't think its worth those levels though; might as well do Fighter 4, and get weapon focus/spec.

[BoSheck]

I did not just see [PEACH] here, did I?  I mean, really?

EDIT: Also, I'm not sure why you use Incarnate - is it just for Mauling Gauntlets?  Why are you using Psychic Warrior?  For Fell Shot?  You can get the touch attack ability through Master Thrower, why not just try to qualify earlier?

The Master Thrower touch attack fails to apply STR to damage once it goes off, significantly reducing the DC of the save to be harpooned.  (Not that I'm relaly too worried about that.)  Psychic warrior is there for:  The expansion power, Fell Shot, and Psionic Shot.

The incarnum Archer stuff is bonuses to attack rolls via Incarnate Avatar, and damage through Sighting Gloves.  Plus soulmelds are nice little boosts at early levels, even without an investment.  The binds make them nice for later, IMHO.

Edit:   Psychic warrior lets me pick up armor proficiencies also, and with the low dex I"ll want to be wearing heavy armor.  That kind of bones evasion from Master Thrower, but plenty of time to come up with a work-around.  I could honestly see subbing fighter in, and replacing psionic shot and fell shot with power throw and power attack earlier, to use -with- the Master Thrower's touch attack ability.

[JanusJones]

+1 to the "non-Incarnate" vote.

Suggestion:

Go for a Ranger/Swift Hunter build - it'll be more effective.  Dip Lion Totem Barbarian for pounce, and be sure to pick up Quick Draw.

Better yet, do a Thri-Kreen for hurling a larger number of harpoons per round.  Lion Totem Barb, Harpoons, Thri-Kreen, and dip Maho-Bujin 1 at 3rd level or so and awaaaay you go!  Make sure to grab a level of Warblade and 4 of Bloodstorm Blade, then use Battle Jump and Valorous Harpoons.

Some quick maths:

Since Bloodstorm Blade lets you count your ranged as melee attacks, you use Strength.

Maho-Bujin gives you one extra attack for every 3 points of BaB you have (it's in Oriental Adventures, in the back - you have to be evil, but what else's new - being evil's ALWAYS better than being good!).
Let's assume that, by 20th, you have a +18 BaB.  Conservative estimate, yes?  That means you attack at +18/+15/+12/+9/+6/+3.
Multiweapon Fighting gives you 3 more attacks.
Improved Multiweapon Fighting gives you another 3.
Greater gives you another 3.

Total attacks?

15.

Now for some damage.

18 base Strength, +2 from Thri = 20 base.  I could do this with a higher-level build, but I'll keep it short here.
20 (+5) for Strength, 1d10 for your harpoon.
Valorous doubles that to 2d10+10.
Battle Jump turns that into a triple - 3d10+15.
So your base Ref save to avoid getting impaled is 18~45.
Remember that every extra +1 Str modifier adds +3 to damage and +3 to the save DC.
This means if you have +5 from levels, +5 from a Tome, and +6 from an item, you'll cap out at a 36 Strength (+13 mod).
That would make your DC 3d10+39, or 42~69.
Bam.

Now, I've put a similar technique into play with a boomerang-chucking aberration of mine in another game.

I'll post a link here: http://rustmonster.net/sheet/?view=1195

Read the Bio section for details on how he works.  The basic bottom line is that my man Twomouth chucks 8 boomerangs per round, each dealing damage and forcing a save vs. stun.  The damage/DC is 3d3+39.  Note that if I had been more of a bastard and stacked on Abyss-Bound Soul - Baphomet, the damage and save would've gone up to 4d3+52. 

Boomerang Daze is a neat feat.   

[BoSheck]

+1 to the "non-Incarnate" vote.

Suggestion:

Go for a Ranger/Swift Hunter build - it'll be more effective.  Dip Lion Totem Barbarian for pounce, and be sure to pick up Quick Draw.

Better yet, do a Thri-Kreen for hurling a larger number of harpoons per round.  Lion Totem Barb, Harpoons, Thri-Kreen, and dip Maho-Bujin 1 at 3rd level or so and awaaaay you go!  Make sure to grab a level of Warblade and 4 of Bloodstorm Blade, then use Battle Jump and Valorous Harpoons.

Some quick maths:

Since Bloodstorm Blade lets you count your ranged as melee attacks, you use Strength.

Maho-Bujin gives you one extra attack for every 3 points of BaB you have (it's in Oriental Adventures, in the back - you have to be evil, but what else's new - being evil's ALWAYS better than being good!).
Let's assume that, by 20th, you have a +18 BaB.  Conservative estimate, yes?  That means you attack at +18/+15/+12/+9/+6/+3.
Multiweapon Fighting gives you 3 more attacks.
Improved Multiweapon Fighting gives you another 3.
Greater gives you another 3.

Total attacks?

15.

Now for some damage.

18 base Strength, +2 from Thri = 20 base.  I could do this with a higher-level build, but I'll keep it short here.
20 (+5) for Strength, 1d10 for your harpoon.
Valorous doubles that to 2d10+10.
Battle Jump turns that into a triple - 3d10+15.
So your base Ref save to avoid getting impaled is 18~45.
Remember that every extra +1 Str modifier adds +3 to damage and +3 to the save DC.
This means if you have +5 from levels, +5 from a Tome, and +6 from an item, you'll cap out at a 36 Strength (+13 mod).
That would make your DC 3d10+39, or 42~69.
Bam.

Now, I've put a similar technique into play with a boomerang-chucking aberration of mine in another game.

I'll post a link here: http://rustmonster.net/sheet/?view=1195

Read the Bio section for details on how he works.  The basic bottom line is that my man Twomouth chucks 8 boomerangs per round, each dealing damage and forcing a save vs. stun.  The damage/DC is 3d3+39.  Note that if I had been more of a bastard and stacked on Abyss-Bound Soul - Baphomet, the damage and save would've gone up to 4d3+52. 

Boomerang Daze is a neat feat.   

I appreciate the input, but I'd rather it be playable from as low a level as possible, -and- be ranged.  I considered, briefly, using the Ritik (frostburn) instead, as then yo' ass is tripped AND impaled.

Also Battle jump kind of requires your region to be a Taer, and the 'ol "2 skill ranks in knowledge local' got swept under the rug and thrown out the door in the 3.5 PGTF, where I believe the most recent regional rules lie.  If soembody can prove me wrong, my spear-jumpin' gnoll in a different game will have a massive boost next level.  I digress, however.  I won't mention too much about that build but you're using ranged weapons in melee, which is a big penalty.  Also, hasn't anyone ever taught you DON'T put 18s in anything in a Point Buy game?

[JanusJones]

Sure you do . . . if you're playing for keeps (20th level!).

But hey, anybody can come from anywhere - just say that's where you're fricking FROM.  You were a slave, escaped, raised by Taer, blah blah blah.  Flavor is independent of function, no matter how hard they try.

With the Thri you WILL be playable from level 1 . . . and WAY more effective than your Darfellan.  Darfellan itself is a . . . confusing racial choice (unless you just like the graphics - they look AWESOME!).

And no, I'm not using ranged weapons in melee.  Bloodstorm Blade CONVERTS your ranged attacks into COUNTING as melee attacks even though they stay ranged.  In other words, you treat them like melee - Str to hit/Str to damage instead of Dex to hit/Str to damage.  This makes you less MAD, which is always nice on a non-caster.

[BoSheck]

With the Thri you WILL be playable from level 1 . . . and WAY more effective than your Darfellan.  Darfellan itself is a . . . confusing racial choice (unless you just like the graphics - they look AWESOME!).

I'm not getting into a flavor/function arguement.  I'm perfectly fine with convenient alignment shifts for cardemine monk abuse, and prestige shifting, as well as other things, but there are levels of cheese I prefer to avoid.  I'm also not sure about charging with ranged weapons, and still so after reading the Bloodstorm Blade's ability as far as that is concerned.  Waiting until bloodstorm blade is for that kind of thing is not really my cup of tea.  I'd prefer, as I said, to be Start-20 playable. In this case thats 1.

I will gladly defend my race choice, however!
1st:  It's better than half-orc.  Hands down. One Str bonus, one ability penalty, not two.  No LA. The swim speed and hold breath abilities will come into play in 90% of campaigns.  I've very rarely been in a campaign where there wasn't at least one 'water level.'  Blindsight ftw.  Or at least a water hazard somewhere.  Natural bite attack for melee, which means even when weapons have been thrown an area is still threatened.


Plus, you know.  A whale-man harpooning people.  Hehe.

Edit: Also, I'm not argueing the thri-kreen will be more or less effective than the Darfellan.  But playing a total blenderizing melee monster sort of invites your DM to start bringing down Half-fiend Battletitans on your face.  Practical optimization is what I'm going for here.  Balanced saves, attack routine, and a few abilities to help in weird situations (in and out of comat).

[JanusJones]

Water Orc, then.  Swim speed, +4 Str/+2 Con.

Better.

A human (or aquatic human if you MUST) would be better yet.  An extra feat is worth a hell of a lot more than anything else, unless you're VERY specialized.

The argument that "if I play bigger, so will my DM" is flawed.  If true, then it's the same level of challenge - just a different level of play.

And I like to play HUGE.   

Might just be a style difference.

As far as "cheese" goes, choosing a regional feat (just one!) and saying you're from that region seems about as far from cheese as one can get.

Charging works with ranged weapons on a BB.  Read the ability.

And the build I offered is level 1 ready, locked and loaded.

[BoSheck]

Aquatic: An aquatic race gains the aquatic subtype. An aquatic creature can breathe underwater. It cannot also breathe air unless it also has the amphibious special quality. An aquatic creature can hold its breath outside the water for 2 rounds per point of Constitution. After that, it begins to suffocate.

I'm reading the ability..and re-reading it.  Thunderous throw, right?  Even with a liberal interpretation I'm not seenig it.

I'd rather not argue this here, as this build is not going to be doign any 'throw-pouncing', thank you very much. So it's irrelevant--to this thread, at least.

Don't get me wrong on the 'playing big.'  I like to play big too.  But I think you're missing the point.  I just wanted help optimizing my idea, to make it better than it was.

Which reminds me:

Thanks PI!  Thanks James!  I think fighter-> earlier entry into Master thrower might work better. 

Thank you also Janus, for your suggestions, at the very least.  I appreciate the chance to debate.  And I would also appreciate further suggestions! 

[Emeraldtryst]

This may be a bit old but I figured I'd throw in my opinion.  Not 100% sure this would work because the somewhat shady wording of a harpoon but...

As I read it the harpoon does the same damage coming out as it does going in (it's barbed and hard to remove), if you're using bloodstorm blade you're either pulling the Scorpion special from Mortal Kombat or you're doing double damage on every thrown attack.  You can decide how that works out in your game.

Anyway, if that's not beefy enough then add the exit wound enchant to just 1 harpoon and it'll blast through lines of enemies (doing double damage if you read harpoon like I do).  Not bad, but you wanted some finesse so go ahead and get an aptitude enchant (only a +1) and pick up boomerang daze/ricochet and combine that with the master thrower ability to hit more than 1 target and the ability to do a trip at range.

Put it together and you have your thrown attacks hitting 3 people at once and everyone behind the primary target with a chance to daze and trip for double damage (or a lot more depending on how you rule the returning ability interacts with exit wounds) up to the maximum number of attacks you can make in a round. 

About the best I could come up with at work so I hope this is of some use to someone =)

[Cavalry_Medic]

PHB p227 "Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size.  This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage..."

Expansion won't do you any good for a thrown weapon specialist.