Author Topic: Favored Class/Xp Penalty alternatives  (Read 8002 times)

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Elennsar

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Re: Favored Class/Xp Penalty alternatives
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2008, 07:45:55 PM »
Orion: If this thread said "Rebalancing", I wouldn't be interested in pressing that point. Since it refers to "favored classes and what to do about the idea", I'm pointing it out. So leave the fact the rebalancing project isn't meant to rewrite D&D from the foundations to the threads specifically tied to it.

And again...why should class be so irrelevant? As noted, most people (not unreasonably, necessarily, but nonetheless) multiclass not because its vitally necessary to have fighter levels to better represent how they want to play something, but because fighter levels beef up the character in areas they want to boost.

For instance, take any paladin without access to "majorly rebuilt to rebalance". Has anyone ever played a paladin without taking fighter levels? Or played a fighter without heading into a prestige ASAP to compensate for the suckiness of the class?

Has anyone seen the fact taking-rogue-at-first-level is a great way to get a huge number of skill points and seriously contemplated taking advantage of that at any game starting at second level or higher?

Etc. Now, that's not to say that "Paladin/fighter" is invalid (it isn't, if fighter is just "ooo, combat stuff"...feats or otherwise.), or that Fighter/Weapon Master is (it -really- isn't...many fighters will wish to master their weapons like that.), but I still prefer this idea.

Being a Fighter means you have chosen that you will dedicate yourself to combat and mastering the art of war. Other things may or may not be dabbled in, but this is the path you have chosen to pursue.

Being a Paladin means that you have been chosen to be one of a God's chosen champions and (small c) crusaders, dedicated to rooting out and purging the enemies of your God whenever and wherever needed. You are a bastion of (traits), an exemplar and model both fearful and inspiring.

Being a Rogue...well, you get the picture.

Now, if a class is merely a "collection of abilities", that there are warriors who should have some abilities related to being sneaky and subtle and crafy, or paladins who are also unusually good swordsmen, or warrior-monks who have put the pursuit of Enlightenment to one side to take up arms for reasons good or nefarious...

That's fine! That's not a problem. The problem is that it means "we don't want to be forced to accept anything as a limitation from our classes, we just want to get the benefits". I am not saying this is min-maxing. It's more like "focus on crunch and make up some fluff that makes sense after the fact"...and meanwhile, totally ignoring any of the reasons why a class based system makes any sense whatsoever.

Personally, I prefer classless. But as rightfully noted, making D&D classless would be an enormous amount of work. And I'd rather not do it.

So I think we should make "I am a Fighter" or "I am a Cleric" or "I am a Duskblade" or "I am a Monk" mean something other than "I have a collection of semi-related abilities." If you go into most fantasy novels, while multiclassing may or may not take place, you will generally see characters that can be pointed out as "This is a fighter. This is a mage. This is an assassin. This is a paladin. This is a monk. This is a..." and so on, though the novels of David Gemmell may have different classes represented than the novels of David Eddings. And its unlikely that D&D classes will fit most characters perfectly (because D&D is a different setting).

If you want "I can customize my character", then we need to work on making it possible to have some abilities in a "in exchange for a feat, you can gain (class feature)." like with the generic classes, but keep it so that the core of what makes a Fighter a Fighter requires being a Fighter.

If you want "I want to be able to make exactly the kind of character I want"...classes are a clumsy and clunky and old fashioned method of building characters, and even if allowing totally free multiclassing, I can say with near absolute certainty that a fighter/monk/barbarian/rogue is less effective method of building the kind of character you want from that, if it is "I want this broad a range of abilities", rather than "I want to maximize character power" (which is pure min-maxing, whether that's fundementally actually wrong or not is still not something the system should be designed to support.) and finding a way to get uncanny dodge and evasion and high hit points and a good BAB and...

I know, long post. If you intend to respond to it, please give the respect of giving it a full reading. If you don't intend to respond to it, don't post something obnoxious like:

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Really long and boring post that I didn't read because insulting the person who typed it is so much more fun.

Elennsar
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Orion

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Re: Favored Class/Xp Penalty alternatives
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2008, 08:53:51 PM »
I did assume that this was a "rebalance" thread. My bad. That was incorrect of me.

That said, I just don't think we're going to agree on this. Your character's stats are kind of a bunch of abilities that you can then parley into anything you like. If you want to stick with the conceptual basis of the class(es), then great! The game design has worked for you. You wanted to play a swashbuckler so you took the thing called "swashbuckler." Awesome! If you want to mix and match and build a swashbuckler out of a rogue/fighter/lasher, then that's great too! I think RPGs should both provide clear paths through the rules to get to your chosen archetype ("Hey, look! A 'wizard.' I wanna play that!") and provide ways to tweak something until it's exactly what you'd like to play ("Hey look! If I take two levels of Sorcerer, then I can spontaneously cast these spells, and then I can go back and forth from Wizard to Cleric and gain vancian access to all those others... sweet!"). As long as the player's are all respectful of each other and the DM's paying attention, this works just fine. The rules can be broken in an RPG, no doubt, but the biggest problems I've ever had at the gaming table rests with the players.

Elennsar

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Re: Favored Class/Xp Penalty alternatives
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2008, 09:15:51 PM »
The problem is, if you really, really, really want to "mix and match abilities to get the best combination that fits your personal character", classes are a clumsy method.

For instance, take this character:

Fighter/monk/rogue.

My goal would be to play a warrior mystic. Blessed by God with certain talents (which he developed through intense discipline and training) and a skilled warrior, he is both monk (in the Catholic sense, not the gaming sense) and warrior.

Uncanny dodge is very fitting. But sneak attack? Doesn't fit him. And trapfinding? Ew. The skill points are useful. The low Hit dice is annoying, though.

Evasion is probably a bit out, too.
The unarmed stuff is reasonable, though he's really more an armed and armored fighter, so I should talk to the DM about the "wearing armor interfers with your monk abilities".

I could go on if this was a serious idea (as opposed to a hypothetical that I came up with in less than five minutes), but the point is, in order to get abilities that fit him, the classes either have to be adjusted (since some of the "semi-related abilities" that make up two of those classes don't fit this particular character) or he has to gain (despite the fact they're unrelated to his character concept, if he doesn't have them, he's really too weak) abilities that don't fit.

Now, if I was building him in GURPS, this would be ludicriously simple.

So...while I wouldn't want to convert D&D to classless (see the post of mine above this), it does mean that I'd like the classes to be "You are a ______.", so that all the powers and talents of being a _____ would be available in one package, rather than having to go through the frustration of "in order to represent this character, I have to multiclass, and accept abilities that are totally unfitting or replace them with no idea of how Wild Empathy is balanced with Turn Undead (or whatever)."

I really don't want to just say "Multiclassing is bad!" I really don't. There are plenty of characters in fiction with abilities that could be from a fighter/rogue or a bard/cleric or the like.
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Kuroimaken

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Re: Favored Class/Xp Penalty alternatives
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2008, 09:19:14 PM »
*baps Elennsar atop the head* BAD Elennsar! How many times am I gonna have to tell you guys to focus?!
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Elennsar

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Re: Favored Class/Xp Penalty alternatives
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2008, 09:28:06 PM »
::evades the bap.:: How many times are you going to assume that "arguing on what to do" is ALWAYS a bad thing and NEVER contributes ANYTHING?

The discussion on what to do about "favored classes" is very much dependent on what is done in regards to classes and what the hell they mean.

Deal with it.
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Midnight_v

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Re: Favored Class/Xp Penalty alternatives
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2008, 12:18:46 AM »
::evades the bap.:: How many times are you going to assume that "arguing on what to do" is ALWAYS a bad thing and NEVER contributes ANYTHING?

The discussion on what to do about "favored classes" is very much dependent on what is done in regards to classes and what the hell they mean.

Deal with it.
Arrgghh. Stop trolling my thread  :wall
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Elennsar

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Re: Favored Class/Xp Penalty alternatives
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2008, 12:23:35 AM »
Stop assuming that anyone who doesn't support all the same things you support or oppose all the things you oppose is trolling.
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AstralFire

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Re: Favored Class/Xp Penalty alternatives
« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2008, 12:24:11 AM »
That's... not... trolling...


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Re: Favored Class/Xp Penalty alternatives
« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2008, 12:34:00 AM »
Stop assuming that anyone who doesn't support all the same things you support or oppose all the things you oppose is trolling.
1. No.
2. Not everyone who disagree's with me. Just you.
Astralfire...
There's more going on there, than what I just mentioned that makes me say that.
Thank you for chiming in though, really.
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Orion

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Re: Favored Class/Xp Penalty alternatives
« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2008, 12:58:22 AM »
Might I suggest that once we've said our peace on a given subject and found that nobody agrees that we just shut the hell up about it? The reality of this endeavour, here, is that it's a collective thing, which means that the collective will carries the day. That's neither morally good nor a guarantee of good work. That's just the way it is in this kind of forum.

El, with all due respect, you're just repeating yourself and you have failed to convince anyone of your position. It's time to politely hold you tongue. I don't think you're trolling. I think you're just unclear on the idea that continuing to repeat the same thing, ad nauseum, will not actually convince anyone to side with you.

Here's my position in a nut shell:

3.5 has classes. 3.5 has a multi-classing system. Multi-classing norm of 3.5 (as opposed to 1st or 2nd), and not the exception, and therefore I submit that penalising players for doing the norm is a waste of energy.

I suggest everyone toss in their last word on this particular subject (and keep it to a similarly reasonable length, for god's sake) and then we shut the hell up about it. But that's just my suggestion...

Elennsar

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Re: Favored Class/Xp Penalty alternatives
« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2008, 01:15:25 AM »
I've failed to see anyone reading half of my reasoning, either, instead of just saying "hey Elennsar said he doesn't like multiclassing! And he said something bad about classes too! Criticize this one piece of his post and ignore all the reasons behind it!!"

My (hopefully final) thoughts:

1) Multiclassing IF necessary, fine. But most basic abilities that aren't specifically limited to X should be available without multiclassing. If I want uncanny dodge for my monk, I should be able to burn a feat and get it. As a rogue (or barbarian) I get it without burning a feat. If someone wants to be able to Rage but is primarily a Fighter, they should be able to get that.

2) You should be rewarded for sticking to a class. Favored class for your race or not, though presumably elves should have a reason to prefer being wizards and dwarves to avoid it, for instance.

3) Multiclassing penalties are stupid. Any halfway determined abuser will either nag the DM into dropping them or find a way around them.

4) Dipping should be discouraged.

Reason? If a paladin 1/sorcerer 19 is a great idea, that means that you won't miss that extra sorcerer level very much. This is not a good thing. Now, that doesn't mean that dipping should be weak...if you don't want someone taking 1 level in paladin and never looking back, say "No taking one level in paladin and never looking back.", if you don't mind someone doing that, then don't gimp it  (see point 3).
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Re: Favored Class/Xp Penalty alternatives
« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2008, 01:52:15 AM »
1) You want to turn class abilities into feats that can be taken by any class. Fine. That's a topic for another thread, though, and you should be open to the fact that that may be a larger rewrite than others on this project want.

2) So which of the suggested ones in the poll do you like and why? That's the point of this thread. Focus on that.
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Kuroimaken

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Re: Favored Class/Xp Penalty alternatives
« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2008, 01:56:21 AM »
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::evades the bap.:: How many times are you going to assume that "arguing on what to do" is ALWAYS a bad thing and NEVER contributes ANYTHING?

As many times as I see it leading us to chase our own tails without ever getting anywhere. We (often) start on mechanics, diverge on fluff and then argue fluff for days on end without ever getting back to the mechanics here. We're spending more time arguing than getting things done. Something like "hey, here's a suggestion, let's tweak it" "I don't like that idea very much like this, maybe do it like that?" can lead to a lot more construction than the way we're doing things right now.

Discussions are good if they have a fucking CONCLUSION. Otherwise, they're fruitless endeavors.


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2) You should be rewarded for sticking to a class. Favored class for your race or not, though presumably elves should have a reason to prefer being wizards and dwarves to avoid it, for instance.

Right, but not to the point of shooting multiclassers in the face. There is no such thing as a class that can cover all concepts, and that's where multiclassing comes in. Favored classes based on race with no good reason behind them are stupid because, among other things, D&D isn't clear on what it assumes when it comes to nature versus nurture. And even if it did, there should be GOOD REASON behind it.

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3) Multiclassing penalties are stupid. Any halfway determined abuser will either nag the DM into dropping them or find a way around them.

Agreed with the first half, not with the second. Multiclassing penalties are stupid because they have no real basis for being there, not because of powergamers.

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4) Dipping should be discouraged.

Reason? If a paladin 1/sorcerer 19 is a great idea, that means that you won't miss that extra sorcerer level very much. This is not a good thing. Now, that doesn't mean that dipping should be weak...if you don't want someone taking 1 level in paladin and never looking back, say "No taking one level in paladin and never looking back.", if you don't mind someone doing that, then don't gimp it  (see point 3).

Frankly? He'll be missing it very much. Paladin 1 isn't exactly a grab bag. In fact, Paladins suck. Dipping should be discouraged by means of class revision, not by means of strict multiclassing rules. And we're already doing that.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

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Elennsar

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Re: Favored Class/Xp Penalty alternatives
« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2008, 02:22:24 AM »
1) That's because we have a lot to decide in order to know what TO make. Fluffless mechanics are meaningless.

2) Right. Multiclassing should be an OPTION (and a valid one), but single classing should pay off.

3) The point is that a powergamer will negate them, so they don't add anything...they're not merely annoying, they're useless, in other words. The fact they're a horrible way of representing why people would stick to one class is assumed to be agreed upon.

4) Dipping should be discouraged by making it so that its worth single classing. Not by making it so that "you only get +1 of your Charisma mod to saves (for Divine Grace) per level, so that if you have Charisma 16, you have to wait until 3rd level to actually benefit from it.

Classes should be viable at low levels (and not be forced to have bonuses limited in order to prevent abuse that should be prevented by saying "hey. Don't do that.") and at high levels (by having useful class features through out).

So, I think we either agree or disagree on a narrow enough area to discuss that.
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Kuroimaken

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Re: Favored Class/Xp Penalty alternatives
« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2008, 02:45:14 AM »
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1) That's because we have a lot to decide in order to know what TO make. Fluffless mechanics are meaningless.

Multiclassing is a fluffless mechanic. You just can't cover every possible concept/combination and analyze the fluff behind each. Conversely, single-classing doesn't cover every concept.

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2) Right. Multiclassing should be an OPTION (and a valid one), but single classing should pay off.
That's part of why we're working on rewriting the classes, isn't it?
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3) The point is that a powergamer will negate them, so they don't add anything...they're not merely annoying, they're useless, in other words. The fact they're a horrible way of representing why people would stick to one class is assumed to be agreed upon.

Not a player's call, but the point is made nonetheless.
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4) Dipping should be discouraged by making it so that its worth single classing. Not by making it so that "you only get +1 of your Charisma mod to saves (for Divine Grace) per level, so that if you have Charisma 16, you have to wait until 3rd level to actually benefit from it.

Classes should be viable at low levels (and not be forced to have bonuses limited in order to prevent abuse that should be prevented by saying "hey. Don't do that.") and at high levels (by having useful class features through out).

So, I think we either agree or disagree on a narrow enough area to discuss that.

And that's done by not frontloading the classes, basically. A level of compromise needs to be reached. Basically, we should weight what's good at low levels versus what's good on every level. Cha to saves, for example, is good on every level (2nd level, by the way... not first). Having that ability as first or second level doesn't work; at 5th, it discourages dipping considerably. A +1 to attack/damage rolls once per day for as long as you can sing/dance/banjo away is good for low levels, but not quite so much around, say, 6th level.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


Elennsar

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Re: Favored Class/Xp Penalty alternatives
« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2008, 02:50:12 AM »
1) Right. But it needs to be dealt with as part of "what the hell is a class" and "what the hell is THIS class".

2) Ja. Just noting in a "thinking out loud" sort of way.

3) Mmhm.

4) Yeah. Honestly, what would be ideal is having as many benefits as possible get better with higher levels, so that low level features are useful at that level and useful later, too.

For instance, Aura of Courage granting +4 to saves vs. fear is a much bigger bonus when the average DC vs. fear is 20 than at 40.

Low level should not mean "useless at high level".

As for divine grace at 2nd level? ...damn WotC...
If ANY class should have "do not dip into", paladin is one of them. Yes, there are builds that justify multiclassing. Dipping is ignoring the fluff entirely (even with "Paladin of _____").

So I think we're on common ground. We may not see things exactly the same, but we agree enough to work on it.

So here's a question: IF favored class means "this race is BETTER at X class" (or classES), would that be more agreed upon?
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Kuroimaken

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Re: Favored Class/Xp Penalty alternatives
« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2008, 03:06:29 AM »
It doesn't eliminate the most basic problems, which are:

A) Favored classes are poorly justified (why oh why are elves supposed to be wizards? It makes no sense mechanically OR fluff-wise!). Most races with "any" are either "we couldn't figure what the hell these guys are supposed to do" or "we couldn't find a good stereotype for these guys".

B) It reinforces stereotypes. Stereotypes are stifling and should not be encouraged mechanically. "Wow, I really wanted to be a halfling wizard. But elves are so much better at it!"

C) If we grant bonuses for following stereotypes, we run the risk of unbalancing the system, specially because some benefits are just plain better than others for some classes. For example, giving skill points to a Fighter is an incentive, giving them to a rogue is overkill. We'd have to make class-specific favored class benefits, and heavens know we have enough trouble as is...
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


Elennsar

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Re: Favored Class/Xp Penalty alternatives
« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2008, 03:10:04 AM »
1) Supposedly, it does make sense fluff wise (WotC fails...again).

2) They should be encouraged mechanically if a race generally DOES produce more (whatever).

3) Hence suggesting +1 feat at 1st level (in class), +1 feat at 5th level (in class) and +1 at 10th level (in class).

Feats are useful to everyone.
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Midnight_v

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Re: Favored Class/Xp Penalty alternatives
« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2008, 03:24:01 AM »
This wasn't for the rebalancing, it was for my current home game... :(

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B) It reinforces stereotypes. Stereotypes are stifling and should not be encouraged mechanically. "Wow, I really wanted to be a halfling wizard. But elves are so much better at it!"

C) If we grant bonuses for following stereotypes, we run the risk of unbalancing the system, specially because some benefits are just plain better than others for some classes. For example, giving skill points to a Fighter is an incentive, giving them to a rogue is overkill. We'd have to make class-specific favored class benefits, and heavens know we have enough trouble as is...

Okay... well your logic wins.

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For example, giving skill points to a Fighter is an incentive, to a rogue is overkill. We'd have to make class-specific favored class benefits, and heavens know we have enough trouble as is..

Quote
Feats are useful to everyone.
giving them to everyone bad for fighters.
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Elennsar

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Re: Favored Class/Xp Penalty alternatives
« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2008, 03:28:40 AM »
Not if fighters have other useful class features, and even if not...

3 bonus feats over ten levels won't steal anyone's thunder.
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