Author Topic: Favored Class/Xp Penalty alternatives  (Read 8001 times)

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Midnight_v

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Favored Class/Xp Penalty alternatives
« on: September 24, 2008, 02:13:41 PM »
We've been talking about this a bit over at the house of "M' just throwing darts and decided to see what if anything someone could come up with.
Under this system humans and Half-elves of course would always get said benifit in addtion to exiting bonuses.
This means instead of mutliclass penalties you just get more out of not doing so to the extent that its actually a consideration to Prc or Multiclas out. Not much of one, but a small one.
Further, I of course believe in multiclassing but I do kinda like the favored class mechanic and explains why dwarven fighters are so hardcore. Meh.
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AfterCrescent

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Re: Favored Class/Xp Penalty alternatives
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2008, 02:21:32 PM »
Well I can see a bit of logic in each of the suggested poll options, but I don't think any of them really catch a good mechanic behind it. And 2 skill points is just too much, imo. You should probably add an "other" to the poll.
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Re: Favored Class/Xp Penalty alternatives
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2008, 02:50:33 PM »
A class is really something abstract in game terms, and I think stat bonuses and racial abilities really should be the extent of synergy or dissyngery between a race or class. A bonus for having Fighter levels, for example, doesn't work too well with taking Warblade or Swashbuckler or a class like the Beyond Monks Martial Artist, all of which can be flavored the same as a Fighter.


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Elennsar

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Re: Favored Class/Xp Penalty alternatives
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2008, 03:01:37 PM »
The Conan RPG system (noted as one possible "other"):

+1 feat at first level in that class, one at 5th level (again, in that class), and one at 10th level (again).

However, if this is done, I would say that a human or half-elf must choose one class (any class, but it must be chosen at first level) as their favored class.

Getting +1 feat at 1st, 5th, and 10th level above and beyond racial features is otherwise just overpowered.
 
As to classes being abstract...

Dwarves are (commonly) dedicated to being Fighters and very good at it. That should be represented beyond +1 x level hit points, +1 to Fortitude saves, +1 to a couple checks, and minor combat bonuses very specific enemies.

That's not "very good at it". That's "useful abilities".

Personally, I would like to make it so that each class represents a pretty hard-to-shift-from choice, with each class being a distinct set of abilities (though not necessarily unique).

Being a Barbarian/Fighter/Monk/Rogue can probably be justified (at least to the person making the arguement for such a character) if you try hard enough, but if we really want to build characters like that, I'm not sure how a class based system helps character creation at all.

Seperate discussion, however.
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RobbyPants

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Re: Favored Class/Xp Penalty alternatives
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2008, 03:08:06 PM »
I was torn between the 2 skill points and the "get rid of it" option.  I chose the 2 Skill points, because this most closely resembled my suggestion of granting 1 skill point per level of favored class.
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Re: Favored Class/Xp Penalty alternatives
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2008, 03:37:43 PM »
I vote get rid.  Its all fluff anyway, and it shouldn't make a difference if an Elf raised by Orcs as some sort of weird Barbarian takes Wizard levels, thereby awakening his long dormant racial supremacy at wizardry or something.


Elennsar

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Re: Favored Class/Xp Penalty alternatives
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2008, 03:54:10 PM »
Fluff is a good thing.

The only purpose game mechanics, of any sort, have is to represent in game terms what (to use a sample character from an essay on writing fiction in this genre) Gnorts the Barbarian can do.

Otherwise, characters are lifeless and meaningless blobs with indecipherable numbers like "AC" or "THAC0" or other things that make no sense outside the hobby.

Elves are naturally superior at being, and/or culturally encouraged to become, wizards.

All things being even, therefore, an elf should make a better wizard than a dwarf.
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AstralFire

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Re: Favored Class/Xp Penalty alternatives
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2008, 04:02:56 PM »
I won't deny that the synergies should be better, but the way to fix it isn't with favored classes, which tie in only to one class rather than a breadth of things that a race should be good at. Racial substitution levels were a good start.


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Re: Favored Class/Xp Penalty alternatives
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2008, 04:07:51 PM »
Personally, I'd rather have a given race have favored classES (when possible), which represent what by nature and nurture the race consistently produces.

So for instance, Dwarves would have Fighters and Clerics.
Elves would have Wizards, Rangers, and Bards.
Half-orcs would have Fighters and Barbarians.

Not all races would have a wide array of choices, and an individual of any given race can only get the benefits for favored class for one class (representing what they, personally, specialized in).

Substitution levels are all well and good, but they're more "custom fit" than "superior because ____ make good ____."
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Orion

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Re: Favored Class/Xp Penalty alternatives
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2008, 11:33:00 PM »
Given how much 3.x opened up the classes, and how common multi-classing has become, it seems silly to literally punish the PC for doing something that's not unusual. I don't see any need to try to make players stick to one class. I don't see anything wrong with multi-classing.

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Re: Favored Class/Xp Penalty alternatives
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2008, 11:40:21 PM »
I do. If "character class" is meaningless, then I genuinely do not see why a class based system is worth the effort of balancing classes (as opposed to abilities and individual characters).

I'm not against multiclassing. But I do think it should be done with the acknowledgment that a class is a pretty serious commitment of time, training, and ability to focus on a given area..and that "But I want to have evasion/uncanny dodge/barbarian rage/spellcasting/pwn lawful" is often a way to get a more powerful character, rather than necessarily a better-suited-to-your-image-of-the-character one.

Take the "warrior priest" idea. The Cleric is already a martial priest. Do you need a cleric/fighter to do this? No.
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AstralFire

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Re: Favored Class/Xp Penalty alternatives
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2008, 12:07:36 AM »
The Cleric's a bad example because it's also really good at pwning face martially and Cleric/Fighter doesn't actually really add much of anything.

Most build ideas do include a level of competence in the RP concept. When people envision their characters struggling or failing, it's against something incredibly overwhelming usually, something that would give their teammates and allies trouble too. While I'm wary of enabling power for power's sake, someone who wants to play a Fighter/Wizard should be able to do so without feeling like the gimpiest little man ever.


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Re: Favored Class/Xp Penalty alternatives
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2008, 12:10:26 AM »
The fact the cleric is really good at pwning martially is the point. The cleric already does "I am a priest" and "I am a warrior."

As for fighter/wizard and gimpiness...

Personally, assuming you agree to all the reasons that doesn't usually happen (no sleep and even less of a social life), it should be a viable option, if not as potent in either field as someone who concentrated on one or the other. (at the same character level).

Problem is, "higher level spells!" are so damn vital at higher levels, which is obnoxious.
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Orion

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Re: Favored Class/Xp Penalty alternatives
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2008, 02:04:49 AM »
Quote
I do. If "character class" is meaningless, then I genuinely do not see why a class based system is worth the effort of balancing classes (as opposed to abilities and individual characters).
I fail to see how these two points are related. If you stick with a class, you get the benefits of the upper-level class features. If you multi-class, you get the benefits of mixing-and-matching class features. If we do the balancing, single-class and multi-class should be roughly equally useful (because "perfectly equally useful" is a wild goose chase).

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Re: Favored Class/Xp Penalty alternatives
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2008, 02:06:09 AM »
I'm of the mind that the penalties should be done away with entirely. Classes are just a construct designed to arrange abilities that a character might have into logical groups based on relative power level. Your character isn't a Fighter, he's a swordsman. Neither is your character a Wizard, he's a Scholar of the Great Art. Or what have you. And if that's the case, trying to give your character a set of abilities that better represents your character shouldn't penalize you, which is effectively what multiclassing penalties do.

Besides, there's a logic lapse. If maintaining multiple base classes poses a problem, why don't prestige classes do so? After all, they are pretty much by definition a specialization in a given field, which should require even MORE effort that standard multiclassing to maintain (between multiple prestige classes and/or a prestige class and an unrelated base class, such as Wizard and Nightsong Enforcer).
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Re: Favored Class/Xp Penalty alternatives
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2008, 02:26:38 AM »
Personally, as a fan of nonclass based systems, I think that prestige classes (other than those that improve/extend your regular class) should be a problem so far as "must keep all skills polished but only 24 hours in day GAAAAAAA! ::brain meltdown.::"

If classes are merely a construct, then I strongly vote for dumping them. They're an awkward and clumsy construct when constructing some characters.

Personally, I'd rather reward favored class users, if the concept (and classes) stay. Penalties for multiclassing come in when you're trying to balance being oh, a rogue and a fighter, which are different skillsets (even if "I have both' is fitting)
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Re: Favored Class/Xp Penalty alternatives
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2008, 03:10:15 AM »
The quintessential problem with favored classes is that some of their choices are either illogical or make for some really half-assed mechanics.

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"Durrr... me half-orc. Me Barbarian cuz me not know how do anything else."

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Elennsar

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Re: Favored Class/Xp Penalty alternatives
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2008, 03:56:59 AM »
That is indeed the problem. Were classes something ithat "you pick a class and stick with it", humans being able to do "any" wouldn't be nearly as absurd.

But with free multiclassing, unless favored class is dropped entirely (which is not necessarily a good idea), humans inevitably profit more.

Bad arrangement.
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Orion

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Re: Favored Class/Xp Penalty alternatives
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2008, 03:07:34 PM »
If classes are merely a construct, then I strongly vote for dumping them. They're an awkward and clumsy construct when constructing some characters.

That's not really an option. This is a rebalance of 3.5, not a rewrite of the whole system. Dumping classes requires a big, complex rule construction to replace it and, sweet jebus, who has the time?

But with free multiclassing, unless favored class is dropped entirely (which is not necessarily a good idea), humans inevitably profit more.

Once you drop the XP restrictions, why keep favoured classes at all? They go together, and once you drop one, the other becomes inconsequential. Dump 'em both. Multi-classing is a free option and a pretty smooth mechanic in 3.5. Just go with it, I say.

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Re: Favored Class/Xp Penalty alternatives
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2008, 04:58:09 PM »
If classes are merely a construct, then I strongly vote for dumping them. They're an awkward and clumsy construct when constructing some characters.

That's not really an option. This is a rebalance of 3.5, not a rewrite of the whole system. Dumping classes requires a big, complex rule construction to replace it and, sweet jebus, who has the time?

But with free multiclassing, unless favored class is dropped entirely (which is not necessarily a good idea), humans inevitably profit more.

Once you drop the XP restrictions, why keep favoured classes at all? They go together, and once you drop one, the other becomes inconsequential. Dump 'em both. Multi-classing is a free option and a pretty smooth mechanic in 3.5. Just go with it, I say.
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