Potential item "fix"

[dman11235]

Disclaimer: this is very incomplete and poorly done as of now, but I want to try and make it work.  It was an idea I had today and isn't fully fleshed out quite yet.  That's why I'm posting it here, for feedback.

Right, so items and WBL sucks.  Items aren't good, or are too good, and cost too much, and cost too little.  WBL is a joke that can be circumvented in many ways.

On the other hand, things like VoPov are just bad, since items are much better.

And Incarnates are awesome.

So I had an idea recently, why not nix items, and require a sort of combination of VoPov and Incarnate?

This system needs work.  Badly.  Because right now it's very clunky and is basically just gestalt and a free feat.

So, take the incarnate, strip it of all class features except meldshaping, binds, and the improved essentia capacity one.  Force a "gestalt" with them, basically the party gets the ability to shape soulmelds and bind them and invest Essentia.  This gives them back utility items that things like VoP doesn't, but is missing ability and weapon and armor enhancements.  Now, take a combination of VoP and OA Samurai.  This feat that they get for free has a progression of enhancement bonuses to abilities (as per VoP), and an advancement of armor and weapon enhancements that you meditate to do.  I'm not quite sure the advancement, but I think magic weapons will start at level 3, armor at level 4.  Also a resistance bonus on save as VoP only quickened.  +1/4 levels.

Like I said, it's hardly complete, but I kinda like this, and think it has potential.  The major issues I see that need to be addressed: Incarnates don't have the ability to duplicate EVERY item.  And some things are still up in the air about adding.  Like multiple weapons.  And natural attacks (shudder).

[AstralFire]

I'd assist, but I know jack-all about incarnum. It looked very boring to me, all about numbers and few effects.

[dman11235]

See, I absolutely LOVE Incarnum.  At first I was the same way, then I read through it in its entirety again.

[AndyJames]

Just give everyone an initial feat at level 1 to be able to enhanced weapons. You meditate for 15 mins 1/day to change the properties of your weapon:

Level 1-2: +0
Level 3-6: +1
Level 7-10: +2
Level 11-14: +3
Level 14-18: +4
Level 19-20: +5

On top of that, you can also add special abilities to the weapon. The following is a table of enhancement bonus worth of special abilities you can add to the weapon according to level:

Level 1-4: 0
Level 5-8: +1
Level 9-12: +2
Level 13-15: +3
Level 16-19: +4
Level 20: +5

It would prevent golf bag effect.

[dman11235]

That works.  And since it is a standard progression it works into epic as well.  Don't want to count them out!

That also works for armor, but since armor is cheaper, I'm thinking of lowering the levels to 2, 6, 10, 14, 18, and special abilities to 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20.

That gets you new things at 2-20 as well.

This is the sort of thing I was thinking of, because it's so versatile like that.

The biggest problem left is multiple weapons and natural weapons with regards to this.  And shield.  How to do shields....same thing, obviously, but levels I'm at a loss for.

[AndyJames]

Fold shields into armour, but get rid of Animate...!

[dman11235]

Wait, how?

[AndyJames]

Use your table for armour and apply it to shields also. Get rid of the Animate ability.

[dman11235]

Okay.....but why get rid of Animate?

Also, by folding it into armor like you say, they will be getting +1 armor AND +1 shield at the same level.  If anything I should off-set it by two levels, but I'm not really sure.  I don't know.  Sleepy time, maybe I'll have something new for it tomorrow.

[AndyJames]

Well, Animated Shields seem to be at the top of the "borken" item list for many people. You know, the SaB guys who cry about THW fighters getting shield bonuses. Just thought I'd head it off at the pass rather than have to deal with them.

[Bauglir]

The soulknife method for weapons might be feasible. If you're using two weapons, have two weapons at one lower enhancement bonus. Until you have +2, only one gets an enhancement. Not sure how the balance would work there, though. I'm sorta taking a shot in the dark, here, so if someone with skill would back me up or tell me why I'm wrong, that'd be great.

[dman11235]

Right, so going over this again (I've been kinda testing it in my mind passively) I have an update.

Weapon: as AndyJames posted, only without dictating what could be enhancement bonus and what could be special abilities.

Armor: as VoPov.
Deflection: start at 5 and every 4 get a +1.
NA: start at 4 and every 4 get a +1.

Multiple weapons: For every additional weapon, you subtract 1 from the total enhancement bonus, to a minimum of +5.  In other words, after you have 6 weapons, you no longer lower the total enhancement on each weapon.  So at 6 weapons you have +5 weapons for all of them.  At 7 the same thing.  And at 100 the same thing.  I figure that if you have that many weapons, well, you're insane enough that it doesn't matter.

Incarnate side: grant the class feature that does a boost to essentia cap, and the chakra binds through heart.  But no soul chakra and no other class features.  Follow the same progression for binds, melds, and essentia.

I'm trying to not make it a pure "hey, you're gestalt now!" while still making itemless "items" good.  Incidentally, I had this same idea going into a VoPov fix  Only mine wont get a +10 weapon, only +9 at level 20.  +10 at 21 (+1 every other level, starting at 3).  I don't know.  Would this work as a VoPov fix instead of fixing items?

[Bauglir]

Looks like it could be decent. I'm starting to worry that this might screw noncasters more, since they tend to rely on unique capabilities items can give that only spellcasting could duplicate, and Soulmelds don't cover all of that. However, having not built an optimized caster recently, I'm not sure how much they rely on items they couldn't get this way (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). The only +9 weapons does the same thing, only on a significantly smaller scale. Ideally, one could just explode the soulmeld list to fix the main problem, but that could lead back to the original issue of overcomplication.

[dman11235]

Soulmelds theoretically cover all of it.  What do you usually buy as a non-caster?  Flight: got it.  Detection stuff (see invis, True Seeing): got it.  Skill boosts: got it.  There are things like Belt of Battle that aren't duplicated, but if it duplicates items, why have it?  It does have different bonuses that it grants as well, so you're trading some items for other "items".

The +9 weapon thing isn't too much of a problem, as it's only -1 from normal.  I might actually get to add the feats back to it this way...

[SiggyDevil]

Not everyone wasted money on the Incarnum splat.

The rules aren't too bad, I suppose. It still comes under full class spellcasters as with everything else.

Essentia and melds in an item-free setting would be fun but you'll lose that modular aspect of traditional fantasy.
You know, in killing foes and taking their shit to deck yourself out.

[JaronK]

Well, in the game I'm currently DMing, everyone gets VoP for free except that the bonus feats are any feat they want, and they don't have to be exalted.  Also, they can use whatever gear they find, and they're gestalt.  However, there's no magical gear... they're not going to find better than a Masterwork sword (and the Masterwork bit doesn't matter).  Plus, no casting allowed.

The results?  Well, the PCs are definitely weaker than normal gestalt characters as far as nifty tricks, since their items aren't giving them tricks, just raw numbers.  But overall, it's working quite well, and the players have commented how much they like that their melee classes can kick ass with any sword they find... they don't feel like regular guys with super gear, they feel like super guys with regular gear.  If they get their gear stolen, they don't care... they'll just beat up some normal mook, steal whatever weapon he had, and rock out.

I think it's worked pretty darn well.  So, the overall concept does work.

JaronK

[X-Codes]

Not everyone wasted money on the Incarnum splat.

The rules aren't too bad, I suppose. It still comes under full class spellcasters as with everything else.

Essentia and melds in an item-free setting would be fun but you'll lose that modular aspect of traditional fantasy.
You know, in killing foes and taking their shit to deck yourself out.

I despise your stance on Incarnum and yet am forced to agree with the rest of your post.  Gary Gygax once said "And there shalt be much slaying of thine enemies and shit taking of their parcels to deck thine self out!"

...Ok, maybe he didn't, but still.  The #1 IC motivation for adventuring is treasure.  Without treasure, the #1 motivation becomes ...getting better at adventuring?  It seems to me that this is a problem that's simpler to fix than to dump and re-create, and will preserve a better gaming experience in the end.

[dman11235]

Or you as a DM could make some other goal.  Like saving the world.  Or something else.  And then the long-term boosts are just coincidental.  Point is: you don't HAVE to make it about killing monsters and taking their things, you could actually have a story that's engaging for the players.

So Jaron.....you think the way I have it now will work?

Also, the one thing I was thinking of for the VoPov version of this is: what about just lowering the weapon bonus, and having a flat, pre-picked weapon thing that applies to all weapons you wield, like the current one?  This will differentiate it even more from items, but I'm not quite sure if it would discourage all non-spell casters (who don't care about weapon).

[JaronK]

I think the base concept is viable, at least.  Balancing everything is the tricky part.   

JaronK

[SiggyDevil]

I despise your stance on Incarnum and yet am forced to agree with the rest of your post. Gary Gygax once said "And there shalt be much slaying of thine enemies and shit taking of their parcels to deck thine self out!"

...Ok, maybe he didn't, but still.  The #1 IC motivation for adventuring is treasure.  Without treasure, the #1 motivation becomes ...getting better at adventuring?  It seems to me that this is a problem that's simpler to fix than to dump and re-create, and will preserve a better gaming experience in the end.

That tends to happen with me quite often.


This whole incarnum-as-items push would work, but it might be better off as a specific setting.
For instance, a world where thought and will becomes reality much easier yet physical materials are in short supply.
It would be like how Japanese have been scarce in metals yet surrounded by an abundance of wood up until the modern age; everything useful gets made out of wood and bamboo. That kind of resource limitation affects culture since we're all products of our environment.