Shadowrun Thread

[Shaun]

I've never understood why decking and rigging were different... if merged, that would basically boil the archetypes to casters, sammies, and deckers.... decent spread with a bit of difference in flavor between casters (shaman, mages, adepts) sammies (tank, infiltrator, speedster) and deckers (hacking, rigging, or wishfully; both to an extent)

I'm heavily biased towards d20; but levels don't seem right for SR.  I LIKE the d20 mechanic of d20+x, but that doesn't solve the class level issue. :/

In SR4, hacking and rigging aren't different. Riggers are just a very specialized subset of hacker.

One major problem with d20 Shadowrun would be that combat is - at least as it's presented in the setting fiction - a result of someone fucking up. In d20, combat is the advancement mechanic.

[Brainpiercing]

I still don't get how a game can have a mechanic for roleplaying, at least not one that works. Would you care to elaborate on that a little bit? I mean character play is not something you can make stats for. Do you get rewarded for meeting goals? Of for, for instance, doing stuff that is not beneficial to your character, but which you do because real people don't always do the most optimal thing?

[Shaun]

I still don't get how a game can have a mechanic for roleplaying, at least not one that works. Would you care to elaborate on that a little bit? I mean character play is not something you can make stats for. Do you get rewarded for meeting goals? Of for, for instance, doing stuff that is not beneficial to your character, but which you do because real people don't always do the most optimal thing?

Sure. I'll use Burning Wheel as an example, but, as I've said, there are plenty of games that do reward roleplaying.

The most obvious RP mechanic in BW is the Duel of Wits, which is essentially a social combat system. It's a mechanic for winning arguments, and the outcome changes the direction of the game in a very real way every time the system is used. Part of the rules of the Duel of Wits is that you still have to roleplay out the argument, but the dice mechanic determines the winner. So, there's roleplaying mechanics. There are less obvious ones, too - for example, Artha points, one part of the advancement mechanic, is awarded for pursuing character goals, which is then spent on rolls that further the characters goals, which then allow the character to advance his abilities. You've also got Traits and Instincts, which can reward characters either for playing into them or against them, depending on the situation. Either way, the mechanics don't just allow for roleplay, but actually make it a requirement in order to make your character better.

[Brainpiercing]

The duel of wits I could translate to D&D without much hassle, not sure about SR3.

Goals I guess are a complicated matter. In SR3 you generally further your goals by filling your pockets. Well, I do admit most SR3 characters are hopeless unmotivated. They just wait for the next call, which I personally quite despise. D&D characters just seem to be drifters, and usually personal goals interfere with the campaigns. Oh well, it CAN be different, but it just requires the player to do it by himself.

So yeah, I agree, a goals mechanic would be a nice addition to basically any game that calls itself a roleplaying game. (And in spite of all its combat, D&D DOES call itself that from time to time.)

[Kari]

You know, in all of my SR games, none of us ever had a problem with goals. Just 'sitting around waiting for the next call' never happened. Nearly all of our characters had goals outside of 'money money money' (and even the one that did had things to do - sitting around doesn't make you cash, after all.) Just because you're a criminal, doesn't mean you can't have goals of your own. I've had a girl who wanted to make the most successful 'underworld rag', a semi-reformed assassin, an inventive rigger who did runs to fund his research... you get the idea. If your players can't come up with goals beyond 'making money', the problem isn't the system, in all honesty.

[Brainpiercing]

You know, in all of my SR games, none of us ever had a problem with goals. Just 'sitting around waiting for the next call' never happened. Nearly all of our characters had goals outside of 'money money money' (and even the one that did had things to do - sitting around doesn't make you cash, after all.) Just because you're a criminal, doesn't mean you can't have goals of your own. I've had a girl who wanted to make the most successful 'underworld rag', a semi-reformed assassin, an inventive rigger who did runs to fund his research... you get the idea. If your players can't come up with goals beyond 'making money', the problem isn't the system, in all honesty.

That, of course, is the painful truth of the matter. My own SR3 characters didn't have particularly deep goals, but I tried to give them some simple motivations outside of becoming the richest criminal bastard around. Only my first character's only goal was like that, the second was a chinese kung-fu ki adept/mage who was a true altruist, always donating excess money to the needy (and with cash for karma this was a pretty neat way of getting more karma). The third was a bionic supersoldier and Muai Thai genious with amnesia, found by the yakuza after the transport he was on crashed, with the (admittedly not very original) goal of finding out about his origins and his identity. The fourth was... ok, his goals were simple again: Become the richest AND the most powerful gothic cybermage/sammie around, while taking care of his buddies in his magical group.
Mostly they developed a distinct ethos along the way. I can say I loved to roleplay the latter three, the first was a bit sketchy.