Author Topic: [3.5 planescape] aasimar melee binder  (Read 4916 times)

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aund

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[3.5 planescape] aasimar melee binder
« on: September 21, 2008, 12:59:35 PM »
Hi everyone!

We reset an ongoing planescape campaign and since I had my hands on the tome of magic, I wanted to try those binders. I already had a look at jameswilliamogle's work and his influence to that build is clearly visible. I think I found some nice tricksto make this binder efficient. However, I'm not sure about the feat selection, so I'd be glad about any C&C i can get, be it featwise or about the general build. We had no restrictions bookwise, common sense made me not consider bovd/boed because most of the feats in there are quite cheesy.

We were presented with a 28 point buy, so that's what I made of it:

str: 14, dex: 14, con: 14, int: 12, wis: 8, cha: 14

Since cha is the binder's attribute I applied the draconic creature template to a aasimar savage progression for a total LA +1 (the savage progression itself is +0 if you take just one lvl of it)
which brought me to this new stats:

str: 16, dex: 14, con: 16, int: 12, wis: 8, cha: 18

I totally skipped the lesser aasimar in the pgtf and I will ask my GM if i can change the race to that since I would gain another +2 WIS for again no LA.
With this selection of templates and races I'm pretty sure that any binder would do kind of good, so let's see what else we can do:

I followed the melee build by jwo to come up with this lvling sequence: 8 binder/5 knight of the sacred seal/2 binder/3 scion of dantalion. This build gives 4 attacks at lvl 20 and saves of

F:14 R:6 W:13

The problem with this race/lvl combo is: You can't take any other base class except for palladin. Which is not an option for this char since I'm going for a vile feat. Palladins just wouldn't do that ;) So you are stuck with binder prc except you can live with xp penalty, which I don't recommend.

Feats: I have 9 feats to select. 2 of those are restricted being binder bonus feats on lvl 4&16. I started off with improved binding since you want that to bind lvl 3 vestiges right from the start. Also on either lvl 3 or 6 I have to pick up a wepon focus to qualify for KotSS. I chose to take power attackat lv 3 and expell vestige at lvl 4 for more flexibility, so I can bind a vestige better suited to my (probably unexpected) situation or just whack whatever is showing up with paimon and weapon finesse.

The next feat gets its own explanation: Insane defiance from EE! This is the vile feat I was talking of earlier. There is a minmax thread of a fey around in this forum which made me implement this: You get 1 pt wis dmg to redirect a mind affecting spell. also the new target gets a -4 penalty on his will save for a spell redirected this way. Since Dahlver-Nar is not an option, because you have to be able to take wis dmg in order to use this feat, naberius will do to regain that wis the next round. NEVER MAKE A WILL SAVE AGAIN! also, if used offensively with your buddy enchanter wizard you can make it harder to save aganst his spells by him targetting you and you targetting the actual target. In combination with focalors&chupoclops's auras this penalty will increase to -8!
Seriously: No GM in his right mind will allow this feat as it is. Right now I'm working on it so I can use it since even my GM isn't hapy with this. Maybe still rolling the save and when you make it, to relay it further is an option.
Back to feat selection: 3 feats left to choose: Since I take the KotSS prc I wanted some feats that aid me in fighting. I'm still in doubt if I should pick naberius as my patron vestige or go for paimon. In combination with some +4 DEX gloves, that would be an impressive 22 dex with paimon. If I could squeeze in a feat to get my dex to dmg, that would add to my dmg output wondefully but I don't know where to find this/how to do it. There is a feat like this in ToB but I can't squeze in a lvl of swordsage (kind of prereq) for this feat. Otherwise just go with dodge/mobility/combat reflexes to move around in combat. Also improved binding will be retrained at lvl 17 since it's useless then. The bonus feat at lvl 16 will be rapid pact making to make changing vestiges even faster
So, is there a good feat around that this binder would need? Or maybe I completely missed a point on what to get with a binder, so that's why I'm asking here in this forum.

C&C? Pretty please =)

PS: this text was written on a crappy keyboard which refused to give out some of the buttons I pressed, so, sorry for spelling errors :(

the char in a pdf if desired:Thern
« Last Edit: September 21, 2008, 02:25:58 PM by aund »
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altpersona

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Re: [3.5 planescape] aasimar melee binder
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2008, 02:54:12 PM »
i dont see books allowed, are variant paladins allowed? or blackgaurd?
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aund

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Re: [3.5 planescape] aasimar melee binder
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2008, 03:13:08 PM »
no restrictions for books as long as its 3.5 or has updates for 3.5 but I want to exclude boed/bovd since just mentioning those two makes my GM flinch. Palladin variant would be possible, since there is an adaption in the ToM. I'm not sure about the blackguard though but If you give me good reasons, I will try to talk our storyteller into it.  ;)
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altpersona

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Re: [3.5 planescape] aasimar melee binder
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2008, 03:45:37 PM »
bg is just evil paladin... where paladin is the only acceptable additional base class..

as far as real paladin goes, most of the variations are from dragon mag, there are a couple in unearthed arcana... slaughter and tyranny..

dont know how they synergize... just putting them out their based on your op remarks..
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aund

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Re: [3.5 planescape] aasimar melee binder
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2008, 04:10:38 PM »
Ah, i forgot that you didn't actually need pala lvls to get into bg  :wall
This is why I misunderstood your comment on bg since I thought you already thought of a pala/bg combo instead of listing up possibilities.

If I take a bg/pala lvl i would have to take 2 to make use of the high cha on saves. Since the grace/blessing is going to compensate for the loss of ref/will that wouldn't be too bad. I would lose a bonus feat (no use for them anyway :P) which is still inferior to ~+5 to all saves.

The Slaughter/Tyranny variants probably won't make it on my charsheet since the prereq is evil, which this char cant afford in a party with good people. Tyranny would be fun though, since that would add another -2 to saves.

I will try to find some pala variants from Dragon magazine. Sacrifycing one more binder lvl would still be ok (loss of one pact augment) but two would cost slippery mind, which still is handy and I couldn't retrain rapid pact making (thou shalt not give up caster lvl) so a 1 lvl dip in a prc is still possible.
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BowenSilverclaw

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Re: [3.5 planescape] aasimar melee binder
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2008, 05:30:00 PM »
Just make sure to get a paladin variant that actually has Divine Grace or a variation thereof (i.e.: getting Cha to saves). IIRC not all variant paladins get that...

Ow, and one more thing. If that's who I think it is for your avatar, you've got great taste :)
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aund

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Re: [3.5 planescape] aasimar melee binder
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2008, 07:01:04 PM »
Hmm I've been thinking and my problem with dips into pala is: I lose my 4th vestige. Palas don't progress my "caster level" making me miss my equivalent of 9th lvl spells. That would definitely hurt. Although a binder is quite good in early lvls, he lacks a strong lategame role thus removing lategame potential would suck :( A friend of mine told me that there is an equivalent of divine grace in EE as a feat. I will have another look and tell if I find anything good.

@bowensilverclaw: Of course it's him. And I didn't even have to upload a picture since he's among the forum's standard avatars ;)
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Re: [3.5 planescape] aasimar melee binder
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2008, 07:10:20 PM »
Quote
dodge/mobility/combat reflexes
Combat Reflexes doesn't help you move around. :) Dodge & Mobility are pretty bad feats - only take them if they're prerequisites for something else you're interested in (same for Combat Expertise by the way). If you absolutely want Mobility you can get it as an armor enchantment (MIC).

Your low-level feat selection seems pretty good, but you should really decide what vestiges you're going to bind most days and decide your feats from there. If you use Paimon and a rapier/short sword, Power Attack is not very useful for instance.

The EE "divine grace" takes a standard action to activate and lasts a few rounds... nothing like the paladin's.

What level do you start at ? Are you sure you're going to go all the way to level 20 ?
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AndyJames

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Re: [3.5 planescape] aasimar melee binder
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2008, 10:13:29 PM »
Don't you have to take all the levels of a savage progression before you can take class levels?

aund

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Re: [3.5 planescape] aasimar melee binder
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2008, 03:52:28 AM »
I wasn't happy with my feats so far anyway, so I'll gladly kick dodge/mobility. (Combat reflexes still sound sweet with 22 dex) Getting mobility on my armor though would be nice since moving around with paimon and his dervish dance will provoke some aoos :/

I'm starting to realise that selecting feats actually means limiting your choice of vestiges to make both the feats and the vestiges more useful. so since naberius/paimon are going to be my first 2 vestiges for sure, I can kick power attack too. I would love to get a weapon focus for a weapon i really need but with simple weapon proficiency the only options are mace and longspear since getting rapier proficiency via paimon doesn't qualify me for the weapon focus feat according to custServ.

Hmm if the EE feat lasts a good duration of rounds, that still might be worthwhile. That cha wants to be applied somewhere...
I started off at lvl 1 bound to naberius (as ordered by my GM) and it was lots of fun. I disguised myself as an enemy soldier and lured the evil guys to run into my group's ambushes. Command really helped to support my disguises authority  :D
I'm almost lvl 3 now but I'm planning this char up to lvl 20 since I don't know how long we will last this time (before we restart again or stop playing at all) so I'm not sure but prepared. Why do you ask? Would you recommend taking pala lvls since the chance of high lvl play isn't at a high probability?

@AndyJames: It doesn't say so on the page, maybe I misunderstood that part on purpose  :blush "Thereafter, the character can take levels in her racial class in order to gain her full complement of racial abilities." taken from here: savage progression on wizards nevertheless, the lesser aasimar would be better anyway since you would start off as an outsider with my variant (which my GM didn't allow, I am human(planetouched) so I can enjoy the fun of "sleep" and "hold person" and much more!)) which has been corrected by wotc: all those +1 LA races aren't outsiders anymore. Just planetouched.  :rolleyes
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AndyJames

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Re: [3.5 planescape] aasimar melee binder
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2008, 04:40:16 AM »
As far as I know, all the LA +1 are Outsider (native) which means they qualify as Outsiders. The LA 0 ones are humanoid (planetouched), which means they are not Outsiders, but are affected all the same as if they were.

I believe that all subsequent savage progressions have the "you must finish all this first" clause built in. So, YMMV.

aund

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Re: [3.5 planescape] aasimar melee binder
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2008, 06:08:19 AM »
hm obviously my GM misunderstood and adapted the outsider(natives)=humanoid(planetouched) as a rule. maybe because he thought it would be better that way but nevermind, thanks for showing this up!

Where is this must finish clause? I can't find it in Savage species. Or is this a RAI interpretation?
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BowenSilverclaw

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Re: [3.5 planescape] aasimar melee binder
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2008, 08:02:45 AM »
If you do go with the Lesser Aasimar, you might want to look at the Otherworldly feat if you want to be an Outsider (Native).

As for the problem with dipping and losing your highest Vestiges, a Bloodline (Unearthed Arcana) might fix that if your DM will allow it.
If you're going for a melee Binder the Titan Bloodline should work nicely :)

The 'must finish clause' for savage progressions is in Savage Species, I'm pretty sure of it. I'm AFB right now but I believe it's in the beginning of the chapter that lists all the savage progressions.

Good luck,
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Re: [3.5 planescape] aasimar melee binder
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2008, 11:00:58 AM »
When you get Expel Vestige and later on some Phylacteries you won't be limited to a few vestiges. But, yeah, it's good to have a base set of vestiges that synergize well together and with the rest of your build.

Naberius is awesome - even at high levels ! It's good to see your DM is cooperating to enable you to use your abilities (in pure hack & slash Naberius would be dull). :)
Did you ask your DM about the Weapon Focus ? That's certainly not game-breaking.

I don't especially recommend the Paladin dip (you gain proficiencies, slightly better BAB, 1 Smite & Divine Grace) because I dislike to delay the binding progression - but if it works for you and you have the right alignment, it's an excellent defense and it will allow you to work WF in. So do as you will.
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AndyJames

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Re: [3.5 planescape] aasimar melee binder
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2008, 05:43:44 PM »
Eh? Naberius is not dull for a HF Warlock. It is the only thing keeping said warlock alive :P

aund

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Re: [3.5 planescape] aasimar melee binder
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2008, 08:30:15 AM »
@bowen: otherworldly prereq states that you have to be swirfneblin/...(don't recall other races, but lesser aasimar is not among them) so this possibility is actually not existing. I already had a look at bloodlines because of jwo's guide and they are broken if multiclassed too much so I'm going to exclude that not to make my GM worry too much ;)
I still couldn't find the "finish clause" so if you could give me a page, I would be thankful.

@omen: My money will go elsewhere first concerning items but its a good thing to consider the phylacteries. And I agree about the dullness of naberius in a hack&slay. (@andy: Since I'm not a hellfire warlock, naberius wouldn't aid me too much in a dungeon.  :blush )
What weapon focus? I can only focus a simple weapon, since that are my only proficient weapons. I could take a lvl pala as mentioned to get the proficiencies and then focus the rapier/shortsword but again: thou shalt not sacrifice binder lvls! so I would be grateful for another option to get it. Taking pala actually wouldn't do a lot for my attacks, since at lvl 20 I still have 4 attacks. The problem is to take out a binder lvl since they are only 3/4 BAB progression. Taking a look at the BAB in the pdf in the first post will explain this better.
Nevertheless: taking two feats instead of one for weapon focus rapier wuld suck :/
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AndyJames

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Re: [3.5 planescape] aasimar melee binder
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2008, 08:46:53 AM »
(@andy: Since I'm not a hellfire warlock, naberius wouldn't aid me too much in a dungeon.  :blush )
Bugger...  ;)

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Re: [3.5 planescape] aasimar melee binder
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2008, 09:41:55 AM »
@omen: My money will go elsewhere first concerning items but its a good thing to consider the phylacteries. And I agree about the dullness of naberius in a hack&slay.
Sure, I said "later on". +Cha, +Str items, armor & weapons should come first.

Quote
What weapon focus? I can only focus a simple weapon, since that are my only proficient weapons.
I was telling you to ask your DM if you could take WF for the rapier despite what CustServ says. It's one instance where the rules are in the way of fun IMO.

Quote
I could take a lvl pala as mentioned to get the proficiencies and then focus the rapier/shortsword but again: thou shalt not sacrifice binder lvls! so I would be grateful for another option to get it. Taking pala actually wouldn't do a lot for my attacks, since at lvl 20 I still have 4 attacks. The problem is to take out a binder lvl since they are only 3/4 BAB progression. Taking a look at the BAB in the pdf in the first post will explain this better.
As I said above, I personally dislike losing Binding levels too. But the "already BAB +16 at level 20" is a non-argument: you still have 17 levels to go before that. The extra BAB from Paladin will mean you get your iterative attacks earlier than with Binder/KotSS and that counts for something. I'm not saying you should dip either - but beware the "level 20-mania" of the CO boards. In a real game, you want to do your best at each level.

So: Binder into KotSS is good but you'll waste a feat on proficiency if your DM is strict.
Binder 4/Paladin 2/KotSS 5 will be more melee- and less binding-oriented - it's good too. The melee role is available earlier.

Another possibility to get proficiency is to suck up the Aasimar LA and buy it off at ECL 4.
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BowenSilverclaw

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Re: [3.5 planescape] aasimar melee binder
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2008, 02:47:13 PM »
@bowen:
I still couldn't find the "finish clause" so if you could give me a page, I would be thankful.
Savage Species page 152:
Quote
A monster character may not multiclass until it completes the full progression in it's monster class.

Hope that helps ;)

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aund

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Re: [3.5 planescape] aasimar melee binder
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2008, 07:51:49 AM »
good news and bad news. Bad news first: My DM made up his mind and I may not take the insane defiance feat. So the debuff vestige selection build is gone. Also I can't take the dragon magazine feat to take dex to dmg instead of str, that would have been fun.
The good news is, I may use vestige granted feats as prereq so I can do the weapon focus rapier. Also he reconsidered and said that bloodliones aren't that bad and I may take one. And I'm a lesser aasimar now, so I don't have to worry about taking another savage progression lvl.
I have to take another look at major bloodlines but I'm not convinced that they are that much of a good idea. Sure you get EBL but you lose HP, saves and BAB. Taking one would bring me one! additional EBL since at lvl 3&6 im still into pure binder, so I would gain 2 EBL at 12 for KotSS&Binder, am I correct? Because then, the only time bloodlines are fun, is when you go for a nuking char when dmg comes from EBL.

@omen:I will definitely bind paimon to get the weapon focus rapier. I will have to make paimon my KotSS patron vestige too, since else I wouldn't get the benefit of the  prc. I admit that I had a little CO-fever and probably still didn't get completely rid of it so just tell me when I start to fly high again ;)

@bowen:very much thank you for making this clear for me since I was already discussing this with a friend who said that there is a discussion if you have to or not. Obviously this discussion is obsolete ;)
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