Author Topic: Samurai [Rebalancing 3.5]  (Read 22387 times)

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RabidPirateMan

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Samurai [Rebalancing 3.5]
« on: September 18, 2008, 02:21:50 AM »
WARNING- This is mostly me thinking out loud.

With all this talk about fixing 3.5, I thought, 'why not make it harder for everybody by adding my misunderstood and miscalculated opinions into the mix?'

The Samurai- obviously the worst class in the game, save for those that dont work at all.  How do we fix it?  Sub it out for Warblade?  Oh, I wish it could be that simple.

... well, no, I don't.  I want a fucking Samurai, and I will cry and scream until I get it.

Point is this- the Samurai could be something good, if we look past the fact that a Warblade is everything a Samurai should be- a Swordsage is what a monk should be, but we aren't subbing it out anymore.  Lets give Samurai a shot.

And now, on to actually being on topic!

----

To me (and correct me if I'm wrong), the Samurai represents the combining of two classes into one steaming pile of shit.  Mr. Samurai gets a Smiting ability that is worse than the Paladins- how sad.  Sammy the Ray also gets a number of Bonus feats- 6 total.  The problem is that he gets them CHOSEN FOR HIM.  Bad.  In my mind, as the Ranger is a combination of the Druid and the Fighter, and the Bard is the combination of the Sorcerer, Rogue and Fighter, the Samurai is a combination of the Paladin and the Fighter- a Martial Paladin.

He sucks though.

How do we fix him?  Well, I try and keep it simple, so I'll do just that.  Give him versatility- make his six bonus feats (at levels 1, 2, 5, 8, 11 and 16) regular bonus feats, like the fighter.

Now, make his Smite a regular Smite Evil.

OK, so he's actually better now.  That was easy.

So lets tweak things a little- We need to make his Smite a Samurai Smite.  How to we make it different?  It cant just be a regular Smite, since its now much better than the Paladin's 'EVUL ONLY' smite.  Hmm...

And now about the Bonus feats.  Diversity is good, but we need to hone down on the diversity- give the players a choice in the matter, but not free reign, since the class has to have defining features.  Here's my first suggestion:

Daisho Proficiency
Hey Samurai, first level, you chose one Exotic weapon and one Martial, Simple or Natural weapon.  Those two weapons?  Proficient.

Cool, we've given the Samurai choice after taking it away- a Samurai gets proficiency in the exotic weapon of his choice.  But since we took something away (the choice of ANY feat), lets give him something back.

By the way, if you like, take a feat that allows you to assign it to a specific weapon like Weapon Focus, you can just select Daisho and have it apply to both.

So now we have a Samurai who is good with using two weapons.  This still offers versatility-  A traditional Samurai could still pick up a Katana and a Wakazashi as his Daisho, but a Dwarven Samurai could chose the Dwarven Axe and the Hand Axe too.  Or, a Samurai could be an archer, and chose the Great Bow and the Long Sword.  A Samurai could be a Spiked Chain wielding motherfucker, and chose the Spiked Chain and the Long bow.  Want to play a monsterous Samurai?  Sharktooth Staff and the Bite.  Monk/Samurai?  Sai + Unarmed Strike.  Possibilities are endless, except their not.

And, we also piss off Japanophiles.  Sweet.

So the Samurai has 5 more bonus feats...

...

Lets move onto the Smite.

The Samurai Smite is supposed to be a Paladin Smite that works on everyone.  How could we keep it good, but not make it better than the Paladin's Smite...

...

I'm out of ideas.  God the Samurai sucks.

So, do you want to help our shitty friend?  Post other Samurai fixes, add to the debate, tell me that its easier to switch in the Warblade or point out the numerous flaws in my logic!
« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 02:25:21 AM by RabidPirateMan »

Elennsar

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Re: Samurai [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2008, 02:47:06 AM »
The main problem that I can think of is that the Samurai really is a Fighter.

Samurai have no more (or less) place being a class than Knights.

Now, that's not to say that I can't think of a pretty interesting set of things, but I wouldn't want to do them unless one was doing an Oriental themed campaign. Any more than I'd want to make a Knight class unless specifically doing an Occidental one.

However, a suggestion for smite, since I'd like to see the Samurai we do have be worth playing.

A paladin can smite anyone who is CE, NE, or LE.
A samurai can smite anyone who is NN, CE, NE, or CE (based on the idea of honorable weapons.)

However, as stated, I strongly vote for dropping the class, as the historical samurai are Fighters, and Samurai as something special are not something that fits outside Japan or similiar cultures. (Monks, at least, one can argue that mystic martial arts can pop up anywhere. Samurai are not so generic.) Having a class for Everything We Can Imagine Ever Anywhere...and I'm going to ask why people are commited to a class based system. Its a mess to have thirty plus base classes and scores of prestige classes.
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Re: Samurai [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2008, 02:57:29 AM »
The main problem that I can think of is that the Samurai really is a Fighter.

Samurai have no more (or less) place being a class than Knights.

Now, that's not to say that I can't think of a pretty interesting set of things, but I wouldn't want to do them unless one was doing an Oriental themed campaign. Any more than I'd want to make a Knight class unless specifically doing an Occidental one.

However, as stated, I strongly vote for dropping the class, as the historical samurai are Fighters, and Samurai as something special are not something that fits outside Japan or similiar cultures. (Monks, at least, one can argue that mystic martial arts can pop up anywhere. Samurai are not so generic.)

+1
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Psychic Robot

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Re: Samurai [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2008, 06:13:56 AM »
Fix fighters, and you have a fixed samurai.

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Re: Samurai [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2008, 06:16:14 AM »
I have to say most of the stuff here is pretty much accurate... the Samurai archetype can easily be portrayed by the Fighter, Crusader, Warblade, Swordsage, and in some cases even Paladin and Ranger.  If you want to preserve some of the unique abilities the Samurai brought to the game, then make a PrC for them.

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Re: Samurai [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2008, 06:55:06 AM »
Or just make them feats.  Intimidating everyone within 30' isn't that much of a stretch for a feat.

j0lt

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Re: Samurai [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2008, 06:59:31 AM »
Or just make them feats.  Intimidating everyone within 30' isn't that much of a stretch for a feat.

Not quite 30 feet, but...

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katans

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Re: Samurai [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2008, 07:14:23 AM »
May I be so bold as to refer to my own work...

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1124.0

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Re: Samurai [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2008, 08:20:02 AM »
I would have to agree with almost everything posted on this thread. I believe that the Samurai WAS indeed a fighter, but I have always seen the 'image' of the samurai as far closer to the paladin. However, this is largely moot - the point is, this should be a specialisation at best, if that.

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Re: Samurai [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2008, 09:56:24 AM »
I'll throw in my vote that the Samurai is more of a title than a class, and can be represented by several classes, either singly or multi-classed.  Still, at the OP's request:

How do we fix it?  Sub it out for Warblade?  Oh, I wish it could be that simple.

... well, no, I don't.  I want a fucking Samurai, and I will cry and scream until I get it.
If you insist on having a Samurai class, then I might as well see what we can do here.

Important disclaimer:
I'm not an expert of Japanese history, amatuer enthusiest, or in any other way qualified to remark on Samurai from a historical sense.  I'll only throw in my two cents with what I think could make a fun, quasi-historical Samurai.

I like your Daisho proficiency.  It makes it less hammered down, and opens the door to other types of Samurai.  One thing you can do to help the class further is to create some "paths", similar to how a ranger picks two-weapon fighting or archery.  This is just me thinking out loud, but some possibilies include:
- Two-weapon fighting
- Two-handed fighting
- Archery
- Mounted combat
- Mounted archery

Obviously, this could get more complicated.  Still, figure out something like three or four levels that you want to hand out bonus feats and/or class features, and give an ability keyed to the style.  Remember that they need not be feats.  Maybe one of the mid-level two-handed fighting abilities would be the Frenzied Berzereker's Imrpoved Power Attack.  Anyway, that's just to get the ball rolling.

Unless you load the class up with some super-awesome abilities, as written, I think you could get away with giving them either a full, if not an intermediate Will save progression.  Also, Samurai are extremely loyal.  Grant them things like immunity to fear and compulsions.  If that seems like too much, at least let them add their Cha bonus to those types of saves.

That's just what I could think of off the top of my head.
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katans

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Re: Samurai [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2008, 10:00:03 AM »
Talk about similar thoughts...

I like your Daisho proficiency.  It makes it less hammered down, and opens the door to other types of Samurai.  One thing you can do to help the class further is to create some "paths", similar to how a ranger picks two-weapon fighting or archery.  This is just me thinking out loud, but some possibilies include:
- Two-weapon fighting
- Two-handed fighting
- Archery
- Mounted combat
- Mounted archery

See my fix. I did exactly that.

Obviously, this could get more complicated.  Still, figure out something like three or four levels that you want to hand out bonus feats and/or class features, and give an ability keyed to the style.  Remember that they need not be feats.  Maybe one of the mid-level two-handed fighting abilities would be the Frenzied Berzereker's Imrpoved Power Attack.  Anyway, that's just to get the ball rolling.

I granted a whole lot of Intimidate-based stuff, making the skill remotely viable.

Unless you load the class up with some super-awesome abilities, as written, I think you could get away with giving them either a full, if not an intermediate Will save progression.  Also, Samurai are extremely loyal.  Grant them things like immunity to fear and compulsions.  If that seems like too much, at least let them add their Cha bonus to those types of saves.

I gave a poor Will save progression, but a bonus on Will save and immunity to fear later on.

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Re: Samurai [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2008, 10:07:14 AM »
Talk about similar thoughts...

See my fix. I did exactly that.

I granted a whole lot of Intimidate-based stuff, making the skill remotely viable.

I gave a poor Will save progression, but a bonus on Will save and immunity to fear later on.
I hadn't taken time to read your fix yet.  Most of these ideas were things I thought up or were suggested to me when I posted a Samruai fix at Gleemax over a year ago.

Still, the similar ideas might mean they have merit.  ;)
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I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
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Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
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I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
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j0lt

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Re: Samurai [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2008, 12:55:10 PM »
May I be so bold as to refer to my own work...

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1124.0

Despite the fact that I don't think Samurai fits as a viable D&D style class, you did a damn good job on it!  I like the flexibility you've provided.  Good work!
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Re: Samurai [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2008, 08:43:42 PM »
From Jaronk:
Quote
One class you didn't mention:  CW Samurai.  It's got potencial, really, especially with those fear abilities that you can combine with Imperious Command, but as it stands the lack of synergy really kills it.  A simple fix: remove the TWF abilities entirely, and replace Ancestral Daisho with the UA Samurai ability, but allow the player to chose any two weapons (or any one double weapon).  Then, give them the following:

Level 1:  Gain Weapon Focus with your Daisho weapon(s)
Level 4:  Gain Weapon Specialization with your Daisho weapon(s)
Level 8:  Gain Greater Weapon Focus with your Daisho weapon(s)
Level 12:  Gain Greater Weapon Specialization with your Daisho weapon(s)
Level 16:  Gain Melee Weapon Mastery, but it only applies to your Daisho weapon(s)
Level 20:  Gain Weapon Supremacy with your Diasho weapon(s)

And add Iajuitsu Focus to their skill list.  Suddenly, they make a great weapon master class.

JaronK

I kinda feel bad that samurai don't have iujiustu focus but other classes do.
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Re: Samurai [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2008, 08:58:06 PM »
Oh. My. Fucking. GOD.

Seriously... a lot of you who claim the Samurai is just a Fighter ought to be dragged out onto the street and SHOT. Repeatedly.

What about the Bushido? Have you completely forgotten about that? You know, that set of rules that COMPLETELY differentiates samurai from any of their possible western counterparts? That tiny little set of guidelines that UTTERLY dominated their style of thinking? What the fuck is WRONG with you guys?!

For starters: being honorable =|= being good or evil. It's also fairly different from being lawful, as Samurai could be reasonably expected to break laws if it served a purpose to do so.

Samurai were also very often unarmored. They donned armor specifically when going to large-scale conflict but most of the time (including formal duels), they wore only their hakama and gi.

Samurai are also far more spiritualized as warriors go than their western counterparts. The whole thing about honor and tradition wasn't just fluff they threw on movies, you know.

Another common misconception: not every samurai is a TWFer. In fact, that style was very uncommon among bushi in general. Katans' samurai fix actually addresses this in an interesting way - except it could probably use a spear style, and I'd recommend him to change some of the names for the ability levels (nitou instead of Niten, for example, as Niten specifically references Niten Ichi Ryuu and nitou is a generic term for two swords).

We got a LOT more to discuss than that.
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Re: Samurai [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2008, 09:06:09 PM »
Kuro, note what I said about samurai being closer to paladins.

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Re: Samurai [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2008, 09:48:32 PM »
Kuro: Bushido is (roughly) equivalant to Chivalry. If "A knight's code of conduct" doesn't justify having a Knight class, "A samurai's code of conduct" doesn't justify having a Samurai class. Something special about the individual character, yes. A class, no.

If we were doing something specifically focused on the Orient where Samurai were a big part of things, instead of a fighter (small f) with some quirks...I'd be fine with making the Samurai nothing like "A Fighter' other than that they're both combatants. There's plenty of good stuff in fact and fiction to work from to build a neat class.

As to being spiritual and honorable (with what that has to do with alignment) and unarmored...

Why in the name of Yoda are we supposed to beleive that samurai took honor or spirtuality more seriously than their Western counterparts? I'm serious. What the fuck is up with the idea that the Samurai were honorable 90% of the time and you'd be lucky if a knight didn't stab you in the back and rape your corpse?

As for being lawful: Why in the name of God is "obeying the law" and being lawful considered to have any relationship whatsoever? Sure, Lawful people will generally respect the law and believe that the law is important, but the idea that a LG person would respect a LE law because "It's the law" or even that a Lawful Neutral person would...regardless of whether or not that law is a good thing or worthy of being respected is...tenuous.

If we can hammer Chivalry to fit D&D's alignment, we can hammer Bushido to fit.

As to armor: Knights didn't wear armor 24/7 either. It stinks, its uncomfortable, and its hot. As for duels, there may be a difference here, yes.

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Re: Samurai [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2008, 10:36:21 PM »
Oh. My. Fucking. GOD.

Seriously... a lot of you who claim the Samurai is just a Fighter ought to be dragged out onto the street and SHOT. Repeatedly.

What about the Bushido? Have you completely forgotten about that? You know, that set of rules that COMPLETELY differentiates samurai from any of their possible western counterparts? That tiny little set of guidelines that UTTERLY dominated their style of thinking? What the fuck is WRONG with you guys?!

Allow me to correct them then: It's a Full-BAB class that wields a weapon of their choice and has a Self-Imposed Challenge that they follow like a stick up their ass.

Quote
For starters: being honorable =|= being good or evil. It's also fairly different from being lawful, as Samurai could be reasonably expected to break laws if it served a purpose to do so.

Being lawful means listening to your superiors and upholding your code at the same time.
Quote
Samurai were also very often unarmored. They donned armor specifically when going to large-scale conflict but most of the time (including formal duels), they wore only their hakama and gi.

When challenged in the streets, they were. If they knew a fight was going to happen at a particular place at a particular time, they donned their armor before that fight and removed it when the fight was finished (as armor is a bitch to wear for long periods of time). When walking the streets, they wore their gi and such, as it was less strenuous to them.

Quote
Samurai are also far more spiritualized as warriors go than their western counterparts. The whole thing about honor and tradition wasn't just fluff they threw on movies, you know.

Do you mean to say they were more Supernaturally-inclined, or just more pious?

Quote
Another common misconception: not every samurai is a TWFer. In fact, that style was very uncommon among bushi in general. Katans' samurai fix actually addresses this in an interesting way - except it could probably use a spear style, and I'd recommend him to change some of the names for the ability levels (nitou instead of Niten, for example, as Niten specifically references Niten Ichi Ryuu and nitou is a generic term for two swords).

I agree, but TWFing just looks cooler.

Quote
We got a LOT more to discuss than that.

Discuss like that last post and your Fu will be -50 by the end of the month. Calm down a bit, think things through, and provide solid logic behind your arguments, please.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

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Re: Samurai [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2008, 11:10:46 PM »
Quote
Discuss like that last post and your Fu will be -50 by the end of the month. Calm down a bit, think things through, and provide solid logic behind your arguments, please.

You're on. You only forget I take negative fu like a child does candy.

Quote
I agree, but TWFing just looks cooler.

Can't argue with that. But implying that every samurai is a TWFer is like implying all Fighters use Greatswords or that every Rogue wields daggers, when the truth is that was a relatively rare fighting style. It was more common for samurai to use daikyu or yari (or even naginata, since it was primarily used by women) than it was for them to use both wakizashi and katana in battle.

Quote
Do you mean to say they were more Supernaturally-inclined, or just more pious?

Actually, somewhere between neither. As a general rule, samurai training was essentially the training of nobles in the arts of war, but it didn't focus exclusively in fighting techniques. Samurai were expected to know etiquette, strategy, calligraphy, philosophy and history, among other things. This alone sets them apart from Fighters. Also, as a general rule even the martial training drew inspiration and discipline from Shintoism and Buddhism (hence the custom to "greet the kami" before stepping into the dojo, of bowing to your sword before practicing iaijutsu, and so on and forth). That's something you didn't really see in the West.

Quote
Being lawful means listening to your superiors and upholding your code at the same time.

Aye. But it was also a samurai's duty to protect his lord. If he saw his lord following a course of action that he considered foolish, it was his duty to dissuade his lord from such a path - and if words would not reach him, to commit seppuku so his lord would see the error of his ways.

Quote
When challenged in the streets, they were. If they knew a fight was going to happen at a particular place at a particular time, they donned their armor before that fight and removed it when the fight was finished (as armor is a bitch to wear for long periods of time). When walking the streets, they wore their gi and such, as it was less strenuous to them.

They didn't bother with armor before personal duels and could not wear them within the premises of their lord's palaces/homes/places of work. As I mentioned, they only donned armor before large-scale conflict.
Quote
Kuro: Bushido is (roughly) equivalant to Chivalry. If "A knight's code of conduct" doesn't justify having a Knight class, "A samurai's code of conduct" doesn't justify having a Samurai class. Something special about the individual character, yes. A class, no.

Elennsar: Bushido is its own thing. Chivalry is something else. It has been pointed out that a samurai is closer to a paladin than it is to a fighter. However, their style of fighting, their outlook on life, their training - none of that is represented by a Fighter well (and many of the things on a Paladin do not represent a Samurai well, i.e. things like remove curse/disease. alignment restriction, etc.). Ergo, there's need for a class that represents this concept more accurately.

Quote
Kuro, note what I said about samurai being closer to paladins.

That I agree with. That they can be accurately represented by Fighters, though, is a joke in very, very bad taste.
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Psychic Robot

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Re: Samurai [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2008, 12:16:38 AM »
Oh. My. Fucking. GOD.

Seriously... a lot of you who claim the Samurai is just a Fighter ought to be dragged out onto the street and SHOT. Repeatedly.

What about the Bushido? Have you completely forgotten about that? You know, that set of rules that COMPLETELY differentiates samurai from any of their possible western counterparts? That tiny little set of guidelines that UTTERLY dominated their style of thinking? What the fuck is WRONG with you guys?!

For starters: being honorable =|= being good or evil. It's also fairly different from being lawful, as Samurai could be reasonably expected to break laws if it served a purpose to do so.

Samurai were also very often unarmored. They donned armor specifically when going to large-scale conflict but most of the time (including formal duels), they wore only their hakama and gi.

Samurai are also far more spiritualized as warriors go than their western counterparts. The whole thing about honor and tradition wasn't just fluff they threw on movies, you know.

Another common misconception: not every samurai is a TWFer. In fact, that style was very uncommon among bushi in general. Katans' samurai fix actually addresses this in an interesting way - except it could probably use a spear style, and I'd recommend him to change some of the names for the ability levels (nitou instead of Niten, for example, as Niten specifically references Niten Ichi Ryuu and nitou is a generic term for two swords).

We got a LOT more to discuss than that.
Therefore, self-imposed restrictions to the fighter class require an entirely different class.