Author Topic: Fighter Fix [Rebalancing 3.5]  (Read 11268 times)

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JaronK

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Fighter Fix [Rebalancing 3.5]
« on: September 16, 2008, 04:52:29 PM »
So, someone mentioned that it might be easier to just place class fixes in a seperate thread from the large groupings for commentary, so here's my Fighter fix.  I was aiming for higher Tier 4, on the theory that classes tend to be a little stronger than their designers realize (so it may end up Tier 3 just because of things I don't notice).

I think we should use the fluff as a guide.  The fluff says fighters should be capable warlords and guards, as well as frontliners.  Plus, they're supposed to be relatively flexible and have special abilities related to feats (I personally think most feats don't need changing, the larger issue is that Fighters get feats instead of class features when generally speaking class features will be better).   I think Fighters should be simpler to play than Martial Adepts, but also be good at generally being tough and strong, and have some options to work with, both in and out of combat (though obviously they're stronger in than out).  And they should be flexible.  So, with that in mind, let's try this:

Fighter
Full BAB, Good Fort, d10 HD, 4+Int skills
Class Skills:  As currently, plus Sense Motive, Spot, Listen, Profession, Sense Motive, Knowledge: Nobility and Royalty, and Knowledge: History
1:  Bonus Feat, Weapon Aptitude
2:  Bonus Feat
3:  Art of War
4:  Bonus Feat
5:  Adaptable Feat
6:  Bonus Feat
7:  Battlefield Recon
8:  Bonus Feat
9:  Uncanny Dodge
10:  Bonus Feat, Adaptable Feat
11:  True Grit
12:  Bonus Feat
13:  Brace for Impact
14:  Bonus Feat
15:  Adaptable Feat
16:  Bonus Feat
17:  Improved Uncanny Dodge
18:  Bonus Feat
19:  Fearless
20:  Bonus Feat, Adaptable Feat

Bonus Feats: As currently

Weapon Aptitude: As the Warblade ability.

Art of War:  Fighters train extensively in the basic arts of combat.  Add 1/3 your Fighter class level to all opposed Trip, Disarm, Bull Rush, Sunder, Grapple, Feint, and Overrun checks.

Adaptable Feat:  Fighters train to be adaptable to the situation.  A 5th level Fighter may chose one feat from the Fighter Bonus feats list or any skill boosting feat that he qualifies for, but this feat is special.  It may not be used as a prerequisite for any PrCs, nor may it be used as a prerequisite for any other feat except for other Adaptable Feats.  At any time, a Fighter may spend one hour practicing and meditating.  At the end of this time, he may change his Adapable Feat to any other Fighter or Skill Boosting feat he qualifies for.  The Fighter gains a second Adaptable Feat at level 10, a third at 15, and a fourth at 20.

Battlefield Recon:  Fighters battle against a great many foes, and learn to identify them quickly.  A Fighter of 7th level or higher may add his class level to all Knowledge checks to identify creatures, and always counts as trained in any such knowledge check.

True Grit:  Fighters must learn to tough it out under fire.  A Fighter of 11th level or higher may add his constitution bonus to any save he has to make.

Brace for Impact:  Fighters learn to shrug off incredible injuries.  Once per encounter, a Fighter of 13th level or greater may, as an immediate action, gain a number of temporary hitpoints equal to his Fighter level times his constitution score.  These hitpoints last until the end of his next turn.

Fearless:  A high level Fighter has seen it all.  At 19th level, the Fighter is immune to fear.



Note that I'd also like to see certain feats get stronger if you have Fighter levels, for example Dodge gives +1 AC against a single target, and an additional +1AC per four Fighter levels that you have, and Shield Specialization gives an additional +1 AC for every two Fighter levels you have.

JaronK
« Last Edit: June 09, 2009, 05:27:09 PM by JaronK »

Midnight_v

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Re: Fighter Fix [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2008, 05:09:23 PM »
For one. . .

I dont' believe immunity to fear is a 19 level ability . . . I don't want at 19th level what a paladin gets at 3rd level but weaker cause it doesnt' help my friend...

thats just cursory...

I like true grit.

I dont' like adaptive feat.

I like battlefield recon: Battlefield Recon:  Fighters battle against a great many foes, and learn to identify them quickly.  A Fighter of 7th level or higher may add his class level to all Knowledge checks to identify creatures, and always counts as trained in any such knowledge check.
 Pretty brilliant actually.

Temporary hitpoints are ... Okay, I'm not sure....

My question to you is this, do you think this fix puts the fighter on the equal footing as a Warblade or Crusader? I mean you clearly state it is tier 4, upper, however what is it you think you'd miss that it'd slipp and become tier 3?

I suppose if you use your adaptive feats as martial study/stance...

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RabidPirateMan

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Re: Fighter Fix [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2008, 05:16:04 PM »
I like some... not so much other...

I wish I had my computer on me, so I could get that big dog template-  "Fighter fix? I liked it better when it was called 'Feat fix!'"

I'm for the skills, but you didn't put how many they get per level- I vote 4, since fighters train for battle.  Also, since Sunder is being reworked to break weapons which can be repaired with a Craft Weapon check (or whatever), that skill becomes more valuable.  Fighters are cool skillwise now.

If they get all good saves, I don't think they should get a bonus equal to their fort save- Monks need something :)  however, I think if they got that and only good fort, it'd be fine- a martial paladin.  I vote all good saves and be done.

Adaptable feats, I think, should be given at odd levels- 5, 7, 11, 15 and 17?

And the rest, to be honest, I don't like...  but that's because I like the idea of having a fighter being a feat master and totally customizable.

Good though :D

JaronK

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Re: Fighter Fix [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2008, 05:24:30 PM »
The immunity to fear thing was just a sort of "well, I should give SOMETHING at that level" idea.  This is a pretty fast workup and needs a bit more to come together.  But it is a helpful ability at least.  Maybe it should come earlier, I dunno.

The Adaptive Feats are something I really like for Fighters, just because they're supposed to be feat strong and, well, adaptable.  And they're a strong source of power, since you can pull off so many tricks with them and have exactly what you need.  I was actually thinking about giving Fighters an initiator level equal to their class level so they could use Adaptive Feats (or just bonus feats) to get high level manuevers... once per encounter.  That seems reasonable.

But to give an idea of what this allows, you can indeed decide that stealth is important for the next thing you have to do, and use Adaptive Feats to get Shadow Jaunt and Cloak of Deception, and thus be able to sneak by people.  Or you can need to bust out of a jail cell and temporarily have one of the Stone Dragon hardness ignoring attacks.  Or, knowing you're going to deal with a magical BBEG, you might get the save boosting manuevers just in case.  Meanwhile, you can also just become a charger or tripper or whatever.  So, tons more flexibility.

Anyway, there's potencial here at least.

JaronK

RabidPirateMan

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Re: Fighter Fix [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2008, 06:24:14 PM »
I'd try and keep initiator levels keyed to initiator classes- if everyone is running around with maneuvers, its going to be Dungeons and Tome of Battle.

Besides, with adaptive feats, he can swap out maneuvers pretty easily.

Battle Recon seems a bit much, but I like the theory behind it- a Fighter should have an IDEA of what he's fighting.  However, its not very fighterly to be breaking DC 30 knowledge checks.  If the fighter knows certain combative strategies against certain enemies, I'd keep the bonus to half class level.  Let Wizards handle knowledge for specific details.

Fearless... eh...  I'm not against there being dead levels in classes, just not as many as the fighter has.

JaronK

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Re: Fighter Fix [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2008, 06:28:26 PM »
Well, a Fighter's still going to have trouble making super high knowledge checks (the Wizard, with his Int synergy and actual class skills, will be much higher), but at least this way he has a chance of knowing what the heck he's fighting, and thus could reasonably actually be in a party leadership role (wouldn't you listen to the guy who understands what you're fighting, even if he wasn't so charismatic?).  If the bonus was half class level, he'd never make the checks.  Remember, the DC is quite high, and at level 20 you'd probably only have a +11 or so (assuming Int 13 for Combat Expertise).

JaronK

Midnight_v

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Re: Fighter Fix [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2008, 06:32:13 PM »
Well, a Fighter's still going to have trouble making super high knowledge checks (the Wizard, with his Int synergy and actual class skills, will be much higher), but at least this way he has a chance of knowing what the heck he's fighting, and thus could reasonably actually be in a party leadership role (wouldn't you listen to the guy who understands what you're fighting, even if he wasn't so charismatic?).  If the bonus was half class level, he'd never make the checks.  Remember, the DC is quite high, and at level 20 you'd probably only have a +11 or so (assuming Int 13 for Combat Expertise).

JaronK
but at least this way he has a chance of knowing what the heck he's fighting,
+1
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RabidPirateMan

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Re: Fighter Fix [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2008, 06:34:32 PM »
Hmm, let me check the DCs...

So a Chasme is CR 10, and to know about it is 20 +5 for every new bit of info...  At level 10, a Fighter gets a +5 bonus, so he'd have to roll pretty high just to know what it is...

A Molydeus is CR 19 and has DC29 for basic info... I'm guessing a CR 20 has DC30.

OK, so you're right :)  Full it is.

Orion

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Re: Fighter Fix [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2008, 06:21:49 AM »
I wasn't expecting to, at first, but I really like this! Art of war makes sense. What fighters are naturally inclined to do (i.e., get as a class feature) everyone else has to go out of their way to learn (i.e., take the Improved feats). The Adaptable Feat sounds like a lot of fun, and I think you've balanced it well (can't be used as a prerequ, takes an hour to prep). I assumed Fearless was the "what the hell should I give them at 19th level?" feature. Although in my own class design, I like to give the really good thing at 19th and then leave something only okay for 20, because that way, if you retire at Level 20, then at least you had two levels of playing with the Everybody Must Bow Down To Me power.

I'm not sure how I feel about Fighters applying Con mod to Will saves, though. That kind of thing is traditionally the Achilles Heal for fighters, attacks aimed at the mind. I mean, I'm not trying to pigeon-hole fighters as a bunch of dumb lunks, it just seems more appropriate for mental-type characters to get good mental saves, and physical characters to get good physical saves. That said, it's not that big a deal and if that's what it takes to make the class balanced with the other classes, I can live with it without regrets.

I think someone should take this to a game this week and play-test it. I'm playing a game with set characters, so I can't do it (otherwise I'd be happy to!), but someone should take it out for a test run. You really don't know anything about a class until you try to generate a character and play it.

JaronK

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Re: Fighter Fix [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2008, 07:07:55 AM »
I wasn't expecting to, at first, but I really like this!

Yay!

Quote
I assumed Fearless was the "what the hell should I give them at 19th level?" feature.

Basically, yes.  Though it's also me thinking that a big strong Fighter shouldn't run away screaming from a dragon... courage is a martial virtue, after all.

Quote
I'm not sure how I feel about Fighters applying Con mod to Will saves, though. That kind of thing is traditionally the Achilles Heal for fighters, attacks aimed at the mind. I mean, I'm not trying to pigeon-hole fighters as a bunch of dumb lunks, it just seems more appropriate for mental-type characters to get good mental saves, and physical characters to get good physical saves. That said, it's not that big a deal and if that's what it takes to make the class balanced with the other classes, I can live with it without regrets.

My primary thinking is that they're supposed to be able to actually tank, and in a world where pretty much all casters can attack will saves easily (and lots of critters can too), having that achilles heel actually makes them incredibly weak.  I mean, what's the point of having a tank if one spell will make him switch sides?  So I went with all good saves, and then gave the con to saves ability late in the class (since it's a strong ability, I didn't want it to just be something you got by dipping).  This means that Fighters can tank quite well, and can focus more on becoming a greater threat.

Quote
I think someone should take this to a game this week and play-test it. I'm playing a game with set characters, so I can't do it (otherwise I'd be happy to!), but someone should take it out for a test run. You really don't know anything about a class until you try to generate a character and play it.

True enough.  Right now it's still at 2+Int skills, but 4+Int might be a good plan too.

JaronK

RobbyPants

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Re: Fighter Fix [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2008, 09:42:45 AM »
I like a lot of the abilities I read here, but I'm not sure I like the class as a whole.  I agree that fear immuninty at 19th level seems like it was just added to fill a gap.

Back when this was posted on that huge 54-page thread, I copied it because I wanted to work some of those ideas into the fighter fix I'd been working on. 

Another approach would be for me to work two of my abilities into this one.  I liked the idea of some type of Foil ability (possibly thwart an action) and the Tough it Out ability (drop a negative condition).  I remember you not liking my Foil mechanic, and I'm wondering if some rewording could fix it or not.  Do you want me to post the text of those two abilities here?  If it's something you're not interested in, I won't clutter your thread.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

JaronK

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Re: Fighter Fix [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2008, 03:33:56 PM »
Yeah, post them.  I certainly wouldn't mind replacing Fearless somewhere anyway.

As I recall, the issue was Foil was that I felt too many dice rolls were required, but I'm sure we can figure something out.

JaronK

RobbyPants

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Re: Fighter Fix [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2008, 04:04:17 PM »
Okay, I guess the other ability was called "Shake it Off".  Foil would only add one extra die roll on the fighter's part, but confusion could probably be cleared up through better wording.  The only extra die roll on top of that would be the Concentration check forced on a caster.  Bascially, if foiling an attack, the fighter's attack roll becomes the target's AC, unless their AC was already higher.  If foiling a skill check, the fighter's attack roll becomes the skill's new DC, unless the original was already higher.  So, here's the raw text from my last fighter version:



Foil Improved FoilGreater FoilShake if off Improved Shake it offGreater Shake it off
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

JaronK

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Re: Fighter Fix [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2008, 04:09:32 PM »
I definitely like the principle behind Shake It Off... I assume it's inspired by Iron Heart Surge?  Something like that should be worked in, but I don't quite like the wording yet.

As to Foil... well the writing is a bit odd there too, but the principle is sound.  I need to think about it a bit.

JaronK

RobbyPants

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Re: Fighter Fix [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2008, 04:39:37 PM »
I definitely like the principle behind Shake It Off... I assume it's inspired by Iron Heart Surge?  Something like that should be worked in, but I don't quite like the wording yet.
Yes.  It's based a lot on Iron Heart Surge, but I wanted a clear spelled out list of conditions.  The only thing that I used to determine if an ability made it into the first or Improved version was that the first version lets you get rid of conditions that don't stop you from taking a full-round action.  The Improved version works on the conditions that would otherwise stop you from taking a full-round action.


As to Foil... well the writing is a bit odd there too, but the principle is sound.  I need to think about it a bit.
I agree.  I liked the idea, but I wrote it up rather quickly.  I'd appreciate any help in wording it better.  Basically, the idea is to use the fighter's attack roll to set the AC, DC, or Concentration DC for the attack, skill check, or spell respectively that he's trying to foil.

I ran through the numbers on Foil, and they seem to work out at most levels, so I don't think the fighter's attack roll will set an impossibly high DC, and at the same time, it should be high enough to matter.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Midnight_v

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Re: Fighter Fix [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2008, 05:34:47 PM »
I definitely like the principle behind Shake It Off... I assume it's inspired by Iron Heart Surge?  Something like that should be worked in, but I don't quite like the wording yet.
Yes.  It's based a lot on Iron Heart Surge, but I wanted a clear spelled out list of conditions.  The only thing that I used to determine if an ability made it into the first or Improved version was that the first version lets you get rid of conditions that don't stop you from taking a full-round action.  The Improved version works on the conditions that would otherwise stop you from taking a full-round action.


As to Foil... well the writing is a bit odd there too, but the principle is sound.  I need to think about it a bit.
I agree.  I liked the idea, but I wrote it up rather quickly.  I'd appreciate any help in wording it better.  Basically, the idea is to use the fighter's attack roll to set the AC, DC, or Concentration DC for the attack, skill check, or spell respectively that he's trying to foil.

I ran through the numbers on Foil, and they seem to work out at most levels, so I don't think the fighter's attack roll will set an impossibly high DC, and at the same time, it should be high enough to matter.
Really good fighter builds abound it seems...
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Orion

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Re: Fighter Fix [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2008, 07:31:57 PM »
Rewrite of "Foil":

Foil: At level X, a fighter can, as an immediate action, attempt to foil the actions of an adjacent opponent (e.g., attacks, spell-casting, skill checks, etc.). "Foiling" an action means interrupting it and thus negating that character's action entirely, just as if the attack had missed, the spell had failed to manifest, the skill had failed, etc. You resolve Foil attempts using opposed rolls. To foil an attack, make opposed attack rolls. To foil spell-casting, make an attack roll vs. the spell-caster's Concentration check. To foil a skill, make an attack roll vs. the opponent's skill check. If there is no obvious roll associated with the opponent's action, then the DM will select a skill, check, or even a save to resolve the Foil.

A few notes (in bold face).

I use "can" instead of "may" because "can" refers to have the ability to do something, as opposed to "may," which refers to having permission. This is a very fuzzy thing, but I think it's more empowering for the player to know what she can do, instead of what the game allows
« Last Edit: September 17, 2008, 11:04:02 PM by Orion »

Midnight_v

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Re: Fighter Fix [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2008, 07:40:08 PM »
Foil: At level X, a fighter can, as an immediate action, attempt to foil the actions of an adjacent opponent
I dont know... I kind of think the 80's movie bit where the figter throws the sword was cool.
Silly but cool, plus we have ranged fighters, Should they be denied foil?

I really like SQL's fighter in the end.
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RobbyPants

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Re: Fighter Fix [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2008, 11:35:36 PM »
Orion, you didn't sound like a prick.  I asked for help on the wording. :P

Foil: At level X, a fighter can, as an immediate action, attempt to foil the actions of an adjacent opponent
I dont know... I kind of think the 80's movie bit where the figter throws the sword was cool.
Silly but cool, plus we have ranged fighters, Should they be denied foil?

I really like SQL's fighter in the end.
English ~ Internet.
Well, ranged fighters do get foil at a higher level.  That could be changed though.  The first iteration I saw of this allowed you to do it within 30 feet and then 60 later.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2008, 11:37:24 PM by RobbyPants »
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Mister_Sinister

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Re: Fighter Fix [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2008, 08:58:09 AM »
I vote strongly in favour of the adaptive feat idea. In my mind, one of the sub-shticks of the fighter is being 'the master of feats'. To this end, I believe they should get more of them, and get more utility out of them, than anyone else. However, I also believe that you cannot fix a fighter without fixing the feats he has access to.

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