Author Topic: Meeting half way  (Read 3377 times)

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Mazin

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Meeting half way
« on: September 16, 2008, 04:20:02 PM »
First off, just registered on this boards after reading a few pages of advice as well as listening to many episodes.  You guys are an amazing resource and I've already learned a lot.

Now, the meat of the issue.  I'm going to be starting up a new game soon and I'm not exactly sure how to approach the whole gathering the group component.  As a GM I favor games with a high degree of intrigue and complexity.  I keep secrets from the party, a lot of them, and they are encouraged to work together to  peel away my net through investigation and interrogation. 

That's all fine and dandy until I try and put it in front of my characters.

In a previous game, I already a character walking from library to library hoping to find some obscure tome that happened to be the GM plot notes.  I told him explicitly that such would never exist (after the fourth library) and it would behoove him to try other routes of investigation other than research.  Upon visiting the 6th library, I fully acknowledge I overdid it and had a riot break out and burn down the library he was in.  The player is a highly intellectual type and has demonstrated this pattern over a series of games.

I have another player who basically only plays non-combative spy types.  I really don't mind the issue, until he refuses to work with the party in any way shape or form.  He will usually slip out in the middle of the night and return just as the PCs are preparing for the day.  (And yes he favors races that require less sleep.)  This almost worked out against him once in a previous campaign when another character called him a traitor.

I have another player who for some reason only subscribes to his form of logic.  For some reason he expects the common folk to know the deep dark secret of the warlock in the castle or for the maniacal zealot suicidal fanatic to be sane and actually follow his logic.  No matter how many times he's been pulled aside and told about the environment or the circumstances, he seems unable to grasp the details.

My other two players are more willing to roll with the punches I give them.

So my question...
How do I encourage my players to work cooperatively to solve the complex problems I put before them? 

Nothing irritates me more than having my players expect me to hand over the secrets I worked hard to hide.  No I will not insert plot notes in the archives, no I will not allow the commoners to know the secret way of closing the portal to Hell.  Basically, I am highly opposed to handing out answers just because the dice tell me the PCs know it.

Ok, now the self-reflective question.

Is my attitude on this issue too harsh?  Should I buy into the argument that the PCs know more than the players?  I have attempted to meet the players half way by leaving clues in libraries in forms of old maps, and legends from the commoners.  But that seems to have fueled the fire going the other way...now my players expect it.  I understand nothing is more frustrating than when the storyteller refuses to tell the story, but nothing is more frustrating to me when my players just sit there begging for information.

So the real question....where should the happy convergence of tendencies be made?

Zeke

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Re: Meeting half way
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2008, 04:36:45 PM »
I think an important thing to do is to disabuse yourself of this notion "story Teller". You and the PCs are MAKING a story together. If yhey have to have a clue make sure they get it but also make sure that the getting it is entertaining. I think you're on the right track with the title of this thread.

Mazin

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Re: Meeting half way
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2008, 04:51:00 PM »
Logical extension of your comment, Zeke...

How do I encourage the PCs to make the getting of clues entertaining?

To make the question a little more narrow, what can I do make the library not the best place to find a clue?

Zeke

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Re: Meeting half way
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2008, 05:05:27 PM »
If they have to fight some dude to get the clue, that can be fun. If the clue is in the head of some skeezey bum they have to rack down and interrogate, that can also be fun and is less combat oriented. I tend to let my PCs know what they have to do if they want to figure out X. I try to avoid questions to which there is only one answer in my game. I try to have thre or four possible plot lines running in case people decide to do X, Y or Z. I don't know if you listened to episode 6, but there's a lot of discuussion about this there.


Mazin

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Re: Meeting half way
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2008, 05:11:31 PM »
Headed that way now!  Thanks!

jcm

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Re: Meeting half way
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2008, 08:02:32 PM »
Even if you don't want to pick up another game system you might consider taking a look at a gumshoe system book. The review of esoterrorists http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/12/12778.phtml sounds like the investigation rules address a lot of the questions you have.

Josh

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Re: Meeting half way
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2008, 11:56:07 PM »
What game is this taking place in?
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Mazin

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Re: Meeting half way
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2008, 01:22:17 AM »
These sessions happened in 3.5 DnD.  With prodigious use of gather information and search (for the commoners and library tome respectively).  I expressed my dislike of the skills being used that way to the players. I even asked them if they could rationalize why a farming village 40 miles away from destination X would know anything about destination X's dark secret.  Or why an average tavern drunkard would know the name of country A's commander of the 4th legion 6th battalion. 

This lead to my players quoting the rulebook, which lead to a whole rules as written versus rules as intended debate, and I eventually dropped the point entirely for sake of gaming rather than reading the minds of the designers.  To this day "My skill check of 35 says this..." gets my blood boiling.

« Last Edit: September 17, 2008, 01:36:06 AM by Mazin »

Josh

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Re: Meeting half way
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2008, 01:49:05 AM »
These sessions happened in 3.5 DnD.  With prodigious use of gather information and search (for the commoners and library tome respectively).  I expressed my dislike of the skills being used that way to the players, which lead to a whole rules as written versus rules as intended debate, and I eventually dropped the point entirely for sake of gaming rather than reading the minds of the designers.

Ok two tools and a warning

warning: DnD is not suited for this type of game. (but it can be done)

Let them get your info the way they want - You know the background info.  Feed it to the players the way they want to look.  Books and spying.  The lich is in the mountain, find it in a book.  Need to find the king of thieves, the spy finds him.

Scene Framing - Use it.  Set up the scenes and just narrate the events between. 

Here is how you do it.  Lets say the PCs are looking to get something from the king of thieves. 

GM: OK so last night you tracked down the king to his hideout.  This scene opens as you are all outside his hideout, getting ready to break in.  How do you do so?

this gets things down to the game.  People get to use their skills, the game gets played, we call that win-win.


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Brainpiercing

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Re: Meeting half way
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2008, 10:00:44 AM »
These sessions happened in 3.5 DnD.  With prodigious use of gather information and search (for the commoners and library tome respectively).  I expressed my dislike of the skills being used that way to the players, which lead to a whole rules as written versus rules as intended debate, and I eventually dropped the point entirely for sake of gaming rather than reading the minds of the designers.

Ok two tools and a warning

warning: DnD is not suited for this type of game. (but it can be done)

Let them get your info the way they want - You know the background info.  Feed it to the players the way they want to look.  Books and spying.  The lich is in the mountain, find it in a book.  Need to find the king of thieves, the spy finds him.

Scene Framing - Use it.  Set up the scenes and just narrate the events between. 

Here is how you do it.  Lets say the PCs are looking to get something from the king of thieves. 

GM: OK so last night you tracked down the king to his hideout.  This scene opens as you are all outside his hideout, getting ready to break in.  How do you do so?

this gets things down to the game.  People get to use their skills, the game gets played, we call that win-win.



The latter part sounds pretty much like a plot-train. If it's what the players want, fine, but to solve the problem like this seems.... frustrating.

The warning I don't agree with. D&D doesn't quite fit the shoes of a highly detailed realistic game, but it IS a roleplaying game. And IMHO a player has to accept that if the information just isn't to be had, then it isn't to be had, in that place. He could try looking somewhere else.
I would also seriously consider houseruling the mechanisms for social interaction, most importantly diplomacy and gather information, as well as perhaps intimidate.

What I would try, in this particular situation, is perhaps not giving players actual information if they look in the wrong place, but rather drop hints as to what would be a better place to look. If a player does a check of 35 on gather information in certain location, you might also just tell him that with every degree of certainty, his information is NOT there.

Or to go to your example: The spy goes out to hunt for information on the king of thieves, and makes a vey good check. Instead of saying "oh, ok, you find out that the king of thieves lives there and there", he might find out that "Bill, the barkeep in the Ugly Pig dropped a hint that thieves sometimes hang out in the Pretty Prune". So when the players visit the Pretty Prune they might find out something new.

Another way might be to throw a few assassins at the players, because they were asking around in the wrong places, and then having one of those survive in interrogatable state.

Also, it seems like Mazin's group is a nightmare of un-cohesion. It seems like every player is just constantly on a trip down ego-lane, and just does HIS thing, instead of doing things that might be fun for everybody. I hate it when the spy or thief player decides they will now go on an evening filling spying/thieving spree while the rest of the group can basically sit by and watch. Making a quick roll instead can alleviate this problem, but it doesn't make things very fun, either.

I do agree though that if it's what they want, then give it to them that way. They might find it's even less fun than what they did before, and come to their senses.

Talisman

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Re: Meeting half way
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2008, 07:52:32 PM »
What you need, my friend, is the Carrot and the Stick.

Put simply, you reward the behavior you wish to encourage, and punish the behavior you wish to discourage. If your PCs are interrogating random beggers after you've made it clear that the only thing the beggers know is which houswives need some firewood chopped, punish them. In an RPG the worst punishment at your disposal is to be ignored.

Player: "I'm going to shake down the rest of the beggers. Someone must know something!"
GM: "Okay, you spend your afternoon harassing beggers. Meanwhile..." [switch to the rest of the group].

I would discourage you from using conflict as a form pf punishment; most players of this type have no problem fighting with the town guard, even expecially when the guards are trying to arrest them for legitimately breaking the law. This also gives the player more face time and attention, which is what you don't want.

Now, when a player does what you want, reward them. This need not be XP, gold or magic; instead, give them attention, make them look cool, and focus on whatever their PC values. Having said that, I use XP Awards: poker chips, each being wroth 50 XP/character level. It's an immediate, tagible reward and it's enough to be worth keeping track of, but not so much that it unbalances the game.

In a previous game, I already a character walking from library to library hoping to find some obscure tome that happened to be the GM plot notes.  I told him explicitly that such would never exist (after the fourth library) and it would behoove him to try other routes of investigation other than research.  Upon visiting the 6th library, I fully acknowledge I overdid it and had a riot break out and burn down the library he was in.  The player is a highly intellectual type and has demonstrated this pattern over a series of games.

This player needs to be ignored when he continues on a course of action which you have blatantly told him was useless. If he continues looking through libraries, just smile, nod, and return to the other players. When he tells you his skill roll or asks what he's found, just tell him "Nothing yet," then turn away. He'll catch on.

Quote
I have another player who basically only plays non-combative spy types.  I really don't mind the issue, until he refuses to work with the party in any way shape or form.  He will usually slip out in the middle of the night and return just as the PCs are preparing for the day.  (And yes he favors races that require less sleep.)  This almost worked out against him once in a previous campaign when another character called him a traitor.

He is a traitor. He's playing the Lone Wolf hero in a collaborative game; this DOES NOT WORK. "It's what my character would do" is the usual excuse for this type of behavior, and it's just that: an excuse. Tell him bluntly that he has to have a PC that plays well with others. He doesn't have to be all sunshine-and-rainbows, or even like the other PCs that much, but he *must* work with them. No exceptions.

Quote
I have another player who for some reason only subscribes to his form of logic.  For some reason he expects the common folk to know the deep dark secret of the warlock in the castle or for the maniacal zealot suicidal fanatic to be sane and actually follow his logic.  No matter how many times he's been pulled aside and told about the environment or the circumstances, he seems unable to grasp the details.

As with Player #1, ignore him after the first two or three times he pulls this. "What? You're interrogating another barkeep? He doesn't know either." [turn back to the other players]. Some things are mysteries; he needs to accept this even if he doesn't like it.

Quote
Is my attitude on this issue too harsh?  Should I buy into the argument that the PCs know more than the players?  I have attempted to meet the players half way by leaving clues in libraries in forms of old maps, and legends from the commoners.  But that seems to have fueled the fire going the other way...now my players expect it.  I understand nothing is more frustrating than when the storyteller refuses to tell the story, but nothing is more frustrating to me when my players just sit there begging for information.

Keep in mind at all times that any RPG is a cooperative game: the players give a little, the GM gives a little. If the players aren't figuring out your riddles and mysteries, you have to help them. It's fundamental to the game. This may be frustrating, but is it better than having no game because the players can never figure out what they're supposed to be doing?

PCs do know more than players...in the sense that they live in the campaign world and know the common customs, etc. If it's something Joe Schmoe on the street would know about (like, say, tipping 15% in most American restaurants), just tell the players. If it's something slightly obscure, allow an Int check.

I think you're in the position of a riddlemaker, to whom the solution is pathetically easy and blindingly obvious...unfortunately, the players are coming at it from the opposite angle, and find it much harder than you think it is. You carefully built the mystery to a logical conclusion; they are forced to reverse-engineer the finished product to find out how it works.

Regarding the skill checks: tell them that it's not possible to use them to find information that does not exist in this time and place, regardless of what the book says. Invoke Rule 0 if necessary; the social/infomation rules are easily broken anyway. If necessary, give them a clue that points them in the direction they need to be heading..."The Mad Baron? There was a traveler through her 'bout a week ago what reminded me of him...eerie fellow; had eyes two different colors. He headed out thataway...'course, there's nothing there for fifty miles, save the old coal mine..."



Well; that took longer that I thought. Hope this helps you.
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emissary666

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Re: Meeting half way
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2008, 02:04:13 PM »
Railroading can be necessary sometimes. If your players have trouble working together, impose penalties on not being together. With the guy who keeps sneaking off at night, have him be attacked by some thugs or house cats. Let the players know that the game is co-operative, anyone who want to play the lone wolf can go play elder scrolls or be doing something beneficial to the group with their solo adventures.
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Josh

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Re: Meeting half way
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2008, 10:07:03 PM »
Railroading can be necessary sometimes. If your players have trouble working together, impose penalties on not being together. With the guy who keeps sneaking off at night, have him be attacked by some thugs or house cats. Let the players know that the game is co-operative, anyone who want to play the lone wolf can go play elder scrolls or be doing something beneficial to the group with their solo adventures.
Encouraging players to work together is not railroading.
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Halloween

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Re: Meeting half way
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2008, 03:34:07 AM »

Dan2

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Re: Meeting half way
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2008, 04:13:23 PM »
I really like your ideas Talisman, but I think that you also run the risk of running off that player.

Bear with me:
If you ignore the player when they do something that you are trying to discourage, then they have a few options
 1) Try again - this is the most likely outcome the first time you do it.
 2) Change their plans - this is what we are hoping that they end up doing.
 3) Feel ignored as a player - a number of players will understand that sort of action as simply ignoring them as a player.

Good players will probably choose option 2 very quickly.  Dumb players will take longer, but will probably end up doing the same thing.
Defensive players will just get frustrated and lose interest in your game.

I have (unintentionally) ignored players before only to have this sort of reaction come up more than once.

I think that there is plenty of merit to your solution, but you have to know your players fairly well.