Author Topic: Yes, but you could have had MORE fun...  (Read 36301 times)

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Orion

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Re: Yes, but you could have had MORE fun...
« Reply #240 on: November 26, 2008, 08:11:25 PM »
Josh, if you're point is "obvious," then you should be able to explain it, not assert it, but actually provide plausible evidence. Short of that, you're just not going to convince me of anything. And bald assertions like "humanity is for suckers" make me, personally, less likely to believe a word you say, firstly because it indicates a smug, self-satisfied assumption of your own superiority (in the absence of any evidence thereto), second because it's yet more assertion without evidence, and third, because it demonstrates that you don't read or form your own words very carefully (I wrote "humility").

By the way, there's a difference between being elite and being elitist. One is a testament to having rare skill in something. The other is a basically classist attitude that some segments of society are naturally superior. People who can't separate those two ideas often implicitly believe in the latter, and thus assume that they are the elites. Take a moment to roll that around in your brains.

Josh

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Re: Yes, but you could have had MORE fun...
« Reply #241 on: December 01, 2008, 06:02:54 AM »
Josh, if you're point is "obvious," then you should be able to explain it, not assert it, but actually provide plausible evidence. Short of that, you're just not going to convince me of anything. And bald assertions like "humanity is for suckers" make me, personally, less likely to believe a word you say, firstly because it indicates a smug, self-satisfied assumption of your own superiority (in the absence of any evidence thereto), second because it's yet more assertion without evidence, and third, because it demonstrates that you don't read or form your own words very carefully (I wrote "humility").

By the way, there's a difference between being elite and being elitist. One is a testament to having rare skill in something. The other is a basically classist attitude that some segments of society are naturally superior. People who can't separate those two ideas often implicitly believe in the latter, and thus assume that they are the elites. Take a moment to roll that around in your brains.

You are again arguing around the point.  I have several very simple unresolved statements. 

I'll just quote myself:

Quote from: Josh
So the problem becomes, "how much do you say to get them to start thinking in the direction you are looking?"
Probably you've been on the side of "too little" a few times.
I have been on both sides, too little is the much better side.

Quote
And then of course there is the problem that people are quite comfortable while deluding themselves. I'm not say a lot of people actually are, but those that are are usually the most defensive about their positions.
Most people delude themselves.


Josh: If you like free-form roleplaying, check out story games, because you will like them even more.

Orion:I will not check out story games because I intuitively know they will be inferior to freeform roleplaying.

If you flip them, maybe. You specifically said "People who have tried both prefer structured," which is a gross generalisation that doesn't acknowledge subjectivity. That's my problem with your position. Thus, you have failed to convince me and you've lost credibility.
Let me translate

Orion: No, I do not agree.

Yes I did say that.  First, it happens to be true, and how does it not include subjectivity?  Everyone is objective in this case?

Quote
However, there is a point to saying things harshly: You do it to provoke some thought. And noone should ever be immune to that. I know we all get defensive if someone attacks our set ways, but sometimes we just SHOULDN'T. Because set ways are very rarely perfect.

Who are you talking about here? Because from my perspective, Josh is advocating a particular, and extreme, position, and I'm saying he hasn't convinced me. Who's getting defensive?

Yes.  Openmindedness and trying things before you judge them is extreme.


And I cut the part you already looked at.

We talk about this all the time.  People ask whats wrong with WoD and we give a 10 point list.  They then pick point number 8 and pick at it and try to stir up some ambiguity, and then declare victory.

Let me restate my premises here:

If you like free-form roleplaying, check out story games, because you will like them even more.
and
Be open-minded and try things before you judge them.

also you might comment on:

Yes I did say that.  First, it happens to be true, and how does it not include subjectivity?  Everyone is objective in this case?
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