SiFir's Hexblade Fix (Tier 3/2)

[Sinfire Titan]

Class Album

Here it is, reuploaded and easy to view.

Reasons for the Fix: To put it simply, the Hexblade in CW was so mediocre that it barely warranted play. The spells just managed to put it above the Paladin, but they weren't the main class feature.

The Hexblade's Curse is pathetically weak. Limited in uses/day, no feats that improve or provide options for it, and it took a standard action to use. The save DC was also incredibly weak, due to the class' lack of focus on Charisma-based abilities. Combat-wise, the class was a poor excuse for an Anti-Paladin. PH2 tried to fix this by giving them the Dark Companion, but that only made the class 2 levels longer (effectively).

What this Fix Brings: Shiny, new class features that matter, a focus on the Cha stat, massively overhauled class chasis, and combat abilities that are worth-while. From a base glance, the class is on par with the Duskblade. In actual play it may prove to be a tad stronger (depending on the focus). It was designed using the Duskblade as a chasis, but the goal was to give it the debuffing power of a Necromancy-focused Sorcerer. As such, it should fall solidly into Tier 3.

[Sinfire Titan]

Post reserved for FAQ.

[Stratovarius]

Veil probably needs a rewording, since right now I'm reading it as a perhaps 5-10% concealment chance with 20 to 30 Charisma.

Absorption: Can you cast into the area from outside?

Dissonance: if a 10 is a success, you've just created an auto-success loop for certain things. I can see that being a benefit, not a penalty.

For the auras, do they know of the effects? For example, voluntarily saving against Discord, since, for an optimized melee, this is quite possibly a benefit. Also, what is the area and duration of the auras, since I don't see this?

Otherwise, I'm not seeing anything that leaps out here as broken.

[JaronK]

Havoc seems a little high on work... the randomness means extra dice rolls and requires using figures (remember, some people don't do that).  I'd recommend having it either be a square of the Hexblade's Choice or back to where they came from, just for ease of play... and then balance accordingly.

Also, is he supposed to have all auras up at once, or one at a time?  I couldn't tell.

I do like the overall idea though... it makes the Hexblade more unique, and not just a lamer Duskblade.

JaronK

[RobbyPants]

So far this is looking pretty nice.  Depending on how it shapes up, do you mind if I use it in my balancing 3.5 thread, giving you credit?

[Sinfire Titan]

Veil probably needs a rewording, since right now I'm reading it as a perhaps 5-10% concealment chance with 20 to 30 Charisma.

That's what I was aiming for. Improve Displacement to 60%, more if the right templates are used.

Absorption: Can you cast into the area from outside?

Yes. I should put that in there, but the file is borderlining the size limit. I'll put the Errata in the OP when it is needed.

Dissonance: if a 10 is a success, you've just created an auto-success loop for certain things. I can see that being a benefit, not a penalty.

Double-edged. It means your allies can't use Tumble and such, and if you take it too soon you can screw yourself because of Concentration DCs being incredibly high without optimization. Some effects do benefit heavily from this (it makes Concentration ranks for a psionic character more valuable, as they can take 15 by expending their focus), others get hit hard. Nice little control mechanism for a melee class.

For the auras, do they know of the effects? For example, voluntarily saving against Discord, since, for an optimized melee, this is quite possibly a benefit. Also, what is the area and duration of the auras, since I don't see this?

Otherwise, I'm not seeing anything that leaps out here as broken.

Auras are constant effects, I think I put that in the ability itself, rather than the auras. And anyone who makes the DC 30 Knowledge check can identify auras when the Hexblade uses them, or the hexblade can let his allies know if he can comunicate with them.

Havoc seems a little high on work... the randomness means extra dice rolls and requires using figures (remember, some people don't do that).  I'd recommend having it either be a square of the Hexblade's Choice or back to where they came from, just for ease of play... and then balance accordingly.

Also, is he supposed to have all auras up at once, or one at a time?  I couldn't tell.

I do like the overall idea though... it makes the Hexblade more unique, and not just a lamer Duskblade.

JaronK

Good point. As is, I liked it because it made me giggle maniaclly while thinking up the reactions to such an ability. Letting the Hexblade control it makes it more valuable, but leaving it set nerfs it to balanced. I'll change it.

And the class feature specifically state you can only have one aura active at a time.

So far this is looking pretty nice.  Depending on how it shapes up, do you mind if I use it in my balancing 3.5 thread, giving you credit?

Sure.

[Midnight_v]

Thats a lot of shit sinfire...

I ... Thats just something we'd have to run some comparisons on. I like it though.
I do find it wierd that it has both spells and invocations till I think "hexblades curse is an invoction really anyway"
I also remeber the sheer number of people that tried to tie warlock to hex blade anyway.
Bier and I, one of the few things we ever agreed on was that the hexblade and duskblade should have the same chasis.

Do you think you could provide some snapshots?

What he'd be doing at 5,10,15,20?

I have been working on a hexblade fix of my own but yours is... well it seems... just better, maybe its cause I don't write fluff...
Ah well good job

One thing though. I've become a proponent of doing away with spell lists for non-full casters, I will be doing this in my fix.
What do you think about it?
For example. it would be something like:
A Hexblade can choose anyspells off the sorceror/wizard spell list of the following schools.
Transmutation, Illusion, enchantment, necromacy( and abjuration???)
no conjuration/evocation/divination.... something like that, I'm still playing with the idea.

again good job, I'll check back to see if you add anything.

[Stratovarius]

I'd avoid Abjuration, I don't think it fits in with a Hexblade.

For the Absorption, I would probably recommend using some form of dispel effect, rather than a save, as I don't think the save fits. After all, you've got a caster saving against a spell he cast himself. Somehow, this benefits you. Also, Fort? Reflex? Will? It's not specified.

[Sinfire Titan]

Thats a lot of shit sinfire...

I ... Thats just something we'd have to run some comparisons on. I like it though.
I do find it wierd that it has both spells and invocations till I think "hexblades curse is an invoction really anyway"
I also remeber the sheer number of people that tried to tie warlock to hex blade anyway.
Bier and I, one of the few things we ever agreed on was that the hexblade and duskblade should have the same chasis.

Do you think you could provide some snapshots?

What he'd be doing at 5,10,15,20?

5: Combat or spells. Familiar+Dark Companion=Deadly threat.
10: Aura abuse, spells to debuff. Combat when it looks like a good idea to conserve spells.
15: Spells, hands down. Use aura as a major debuffer or control card. Melee only when it looks to be safer than trying anything else. In case of multiple enemies and a caster behind them, wade in with Absorbtion up and screw the caster's ability to buff his allies.
20: Keep up with whatever scraps the full casters leave behind. If possible, use massive amounts of Debuffs and prevent the enemy from recovering from the spells.

I have been working on a hexblade fix of my own but yours is... well it seems... just better, maybe its cause I don't write fluff...
Ah well good job

Would have been nice to fit it all in one PDF though...

One thing though. I've become a proponent of doing away with spell lists for non-full casters, I will be doing this in my fix.
What do you think about it?
For example. it would be something like:
A Hexblade can choose anyspells off the sorceror/wizard spell list of the following schools.
Transmutation, Illusion, enchantment, necromacy( and abjuration???)
no conjuration/evocation/divination.... something like that, I'm still playing with the idea.

again good job, I'll check back to see if you add anything.

Transmutation is a no. Wraithstrike, Polymorph, and other easily abused spells should not be on thisn class' spell list (those are not accurate debuffs despite their power). I put Abjuration in there because it was a good idea at the time, and several major debuffs belong to Abjuration (namely anything with Dispel in its name).

I'd avoid Abjuration, I don't think it fits in with a Hexblade.

For the Absorption, I would probably recommend using some form of dispel effect, rather than a save, as I don't think the save fits. After all, you've got a caster saving against a spell he cast himself. Somehow, this benefits you. Also, Fort? Reflex? Will? It's not specified.

It' supposed to be whatever save the spell allows, if any. Thus, an enemy under the effect of a Bull's Strength spell would have to make a Fort save to keep the spell active, otherwise the Hexblade absorbs it and heals. It more or less forces them to make the Saving Throw against spells with the Harmless tag, and if they choose to fail they lose the spell's effect.

[RobbyPants]

I agree with Stratovarius that Dissonance is odd in that you can make an auto success, which seems odd to me.

Personally, I think it'd be better to have Dissonance give a penalty (-4? -10?) to all skill checks in the area, and prevent you from taking 10 or 20, even if you normally have to ability to do so when otherwise prevented.

[Sinfire Titan]

I agree with Stratovarius that Dissonance is odd in that you can make an auto success, which seems odd to me.

Personally, I think it'd be better to have Dissonance give a penalty (-4? -10?) to all skill checks in the area, and prevent you from taking 10 or 20, even if you normally have to ability to do so when otherwise prevented.

Point made.

[Midnight_v]

Transmutation is a no. Wraithstrike, Polymorph, and other easily abused spells should not be on thisn class' spell list (those are not accurate debuffs despite their power). I put Abjuration in there because it was a good idea at the time, and several major debuffs belong to Abjuration (namely anything with Dispel in its name).

  You do realize that polymorph and baleful polymore as well as the bull's strength line are on the classes original list right?
 Hmm... I do like the inclusion of abjuration. Further I am building for the rebalancing 3.5 project really so I expect "polymorph abuse" will get fixed but other than that yeah.

Man I really liked the hexer gazes as an invocation till I realized you said:

the target takes a -2 penalty to all Level-related abilities (such as his Caster Level, Manifester Level, or Initiator Level, but not saving throws, Base Attack Bonus, or Skill Ranks). The penalty lasts for 1 hour.
If the target succeeds its saving throw, you cannot affect that target with this invocation again for 1d4 rounds. You may, however, use a more powerful version of it on your next turn against the same target if you know the invocation in question.

WUT?
Meh. Is that intentional? I mean did you intend to change the class so drastically? I mean the master debuffer was what I loved about the Hexblade, a guy who by proximity screwed up your saves?
Is there something else or did you just take him out of the "fuck over your saves" game?

[Sinfire Titan]

  You do realize that polymorph and baleful polymore as well as the bull's strength line are on the classes original list right?
 Hmm... I do like the inclusion of abjuration. Further I am building for the rebalancing 3.5 project really so I expect "polymorph abuse" will get fixed but other than that yeah.

I barely referenced the original's spell list when I made mine, so no, I didn't see them there.

Man I really liked the hexer gazes as an invocation till I realized you said:

the target takes a -2 penalty to all Level-related abilities (such as his Caster Level, Manifester Level, or Initiator Level, but not saving throws, Base Attack Bonus, or Skill Ranks). The penalty lasts for 1 hour.
If the target succeeds its saving throw, you cannot affect that target with this invocation again for 1d4 rounds. You may, however, use a more powerful version of it on your next turn against the same target if you know the invocation in question.

WUT?
Meh. Is that intentional? I mean did you intend to change the class so drastically? I mean the master debuffer was what I loved about the Hexblade, a guy who by proximity screwed up your saves?
Is there something else or did you just take him out of the "fuck over your saves" game?

Originally, it was intentional. I dropped their ability to influence saves because they had spells that could do that, and one of their other Invocations could hit saves pretty hard anyway. However, I am considering having the three of those invocations stack for effects (somewhat) to make up for that nerf, at the request of the player this was made for.

So I'll run this by you guys.

Hexer's Gaze is a -2, like always.
GotCB becomes -3 on its own, or an additional -2 if used with the Hexer's Gaze or Gaze of the Undergod.
Gaze of the Undergod becomes a -4, or an extra -4 if used after both of the other two.

Thus, no matter which one you use you get the -6 eventually. However, you can get a -8 for waiting three rounds at the higher levels. Would that be too much, or a fair trade for the nerf on Saves?

[syntax_error]

Hey everyone, I'm the requester of the Hexblade fix. I've compiled this hexblade into one neat file, with a couple of my own alterations, in an attempt to provide some clarity, some simplicity and some old flavour (I added a couple of old hexblade spells). Its an all in one feature, however I can't seem to make a pdf smaller than 180kb, or a zip/rar there of less then 154kb. So please accept my apologies for providing this in Word '97-'03 format.

Syntax Error

[Sinfire Titan]

Needs more reviews.

[SiggyDevil]

Hey, I need reviews on the Versumage... at all. We all got somethin.

Anyways, I see nothing wrong mechanically. It won't hold up against a true spellcaster by later levels but the low-to-mid would be very fun. I'd play it.

One beef with it; put all that fluff like "Playing" and "In The World" after the mechanics.
If I care about how someone else describes how my own class interacts in a setting, I'll go an read it; in most cases I'll just want it out of the way while I dive straight for the class basics, invocations, curses, etc (and I think I speak for most people reading this for the first time)

[fil kearney]

I don't think I've ever seen any class accumulate 10 spells per level straight off the chart... is this to make it "beyond duskblade"?  I'd think the invocations would go a long way to reducing the need for lots of spells (good move, BTW.. fits the class nicely)
but again.. less spells per level would seem appropriate with the amount of just STUFF they get... full bab, invo's 5th level spells, and special stuff... maybe put it on par with bard list? 

[Sinfire Titan]

I don't think I've ever seen any class accumulate 10 spells per level straight off the chart... is this to make it "beyond duskblade"?  I'd think the invocations would go a long way to reducing the need for lots of spells (good move, BTW.. fits the class nicely)
but again.. less spells per level would seem appropriate with the amount of just STUFF they get... full bab, invo's 5th level spells, and special stuff... maybe put it on par with bard list? 

Duskblades get 10 spells/day around the same level my Hexblade does (if you don't count the Invocations as spells). The spell progression chart is identical to the Duskblade's, with the addition of Invocations.

Hey, I need reviews on the Versumage... at all. We all got somethin.

Anyways, I see nothing wrong mechanically. It won't hold up against a true spellcaster by later levels but the low-to-mid would be very fun. I'd play it.

One beef with it; put all that fluff like "Playing" and "In The World" after the mechanics.
If I care about how someone else describes how my own class interacts in a setting, I'll go an read it; in most cases I'll just want it out of the way while I dive straight for the class basics, invocations, curses, etc (and I think I speak for most people reading this for the first time)

I can't rearrange the locations of the downloads. The boards are set to have them at the end of the post by default. But using Ctrl+f to pull up the page search function will allow you to zip right to the download links.

The spell list is also in a larger font than the fluff, and everything after that is mechanics for the class.


But for ease of reference, I'll relink them in the OP.

[SiggyDevil]

Quick question; what is this "Tier" business?

[Sinfire Titan]

Quick question; what is this "Tier" business?

JaronK's Tier thread explains what the Tiers are. I was aiming for the higher end of Tier 3, or the lower end of Tier 2 (the higher the number, the less flexible the class is, and Tier 1 is also refered to as the Big 6).