Author Topic: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]  (Read 24172 times)

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Chemus

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Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #80 on: September 12, 2008, 10:03:39 PM »
Optional feat usage (so players can play what is a succubus, but not have to take teleport at will, even though it's cool and all) for unique powers/abilities with predetermined levels as gateways, and a 'false' LA using SS Monster class bases (tweaked to be clean) would do the job, IMO. Stat adjusts would just come from a 27 point buy or perhaps more..., but 27 nets you just above the elite array (by 3).

I still think that the [Magic] feats from my house-rules/rebalance thread would be best for those critters with a few SLA's. It gives repeatability to them, while not making them at will.

I also feel that this should grow into a way to make all characters from the same power level balanced. Really, does the tarrasque has to have 48 HD to be 'balanced' as a 20th level encounter? Really? CR=HD=Lvl=ECL is what I think a cleanup of LA should lead to.
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Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #81 on: September 12, 2008, 10:15:16 PM »
Optional feat usage (so players can play what is a succubus, but not have to take teleport at will, even though it's cool and all) for unique powers/abilities with predetermined levels as gateways, and a 'false' LA using SS Monster class bases (tweaked to be clean) would do the job, IMO. Stat adjusts would just come from a 27 point buy or perhaps more..., but 27 nets you just above the elite array (by 3).
I was just talking with Elennsar about optional feats for racial progression. It's an interesting idea to fill out the less necessary abilities to make a creature. Like the succubus, it has to take energy drain, but maybe has an optional feat for something else.  I would really like to steer away from LA in general, even a false version via SS. Because it just doesn't work. I think the sooner we can all agree to step away from LA in all its incarnations, the better.  The stats were another thing I chatted over messenger with earlier. Some monsters, to steal from Frank & K, just have the "Awesome" tag. That means the same point buy for adjustments won't work.  I haven't figured out how, but I'll find a way to formulize this. :P

Quote
I still think that the [Magic] feats from my house-rules/rebalance thread would be best for those critters with a few SLA's. It gives repeatability to them, while not making them at will.
I may be stealing some of those feats for certain races, if I didn't already mention that. ;) Thanks.

Quote
I also feel that this should grow into a way to make all characters from the same power level balanced. Really, does the tarrasque has to have 48 HD to be 'balanced' as a 20th level encounter? Really? CR=HD=Lvl=ECL is what I think a cleanup of LA should lead to.
For Anything that is potentially playable, yes. CR=HD=Level=ECL should hold true. Completely agree. For something like the tarrasque, maybe not. It varies, honestly, and that's another thread in and of itself, but if doable, I'm all for HD=CR. Although Big T totally gets either d20 HD and/or Max HP/die. :P
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Chemus

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Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #82 on: September 12, 2008, 10:25:58 PM »
I still think that the [Magic] feats from my house-rules/rebalance thread would be best for those critters with a few SLA's. It gives repeatability to them, while not making them at will.
I may be stealing some of those feats for certain races, if I didn't already mention that. ;) Thanks.

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Quote
...I'm all for HD=CR. Although Big T totally gets either d20 HD and/or Max HP/die. :P

Yes. This. Excellent. The Badass monsters get more HP/Die or bigger dice. Dragons as opponents have the Awesome tag. Even pseudodragons. Dragons as PC's don't get that subtype, so no bigger HD. Keeping 1=1 is best, and this helps. A lot. Even humanoids and monstrous humanoids can benefit from this kind of deflation of HD.
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AstralFire

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Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #83 on: September 12, 2008, 11:11:45 PM »
I object on the basis that dragons suck.


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Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #84 on: September 12, 2008, 11:13:08 PM »
Is that a personal or mechanical claim? Because the game is called Dungeons and Dragons. :P  Mechanically, I believe they need to be reworked some, yes.
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Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #85 on: September 12, 2008, 11:14:10 PM »
I also believe dragons suck, but it has nothing to do with the concept and everything to do with their execution, and WotC being a bunch of scalies.

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Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #86 on: September 12, 2008, 11:26:42 PM »
Is that a personal or mechanical claim? Because the game is called Dungeons and Dragons. :P  Mechanically, I believe they need to be reworked some, yes.

Personal. I don't care for the evolution of dragons into omnipresent slutty magnificent bastard Mary Stus. Give me big ol' dumb lizards what breathe fire and leave the thinking to the ones that aren't so physically impressive.


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AfterCrescent

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Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #87 on: September 13, 2008, 03:17:57 AM »
Got another one down. An iconic creature. I think I'm beginning to see a slight pattern with figuring out the ability score adjustments... Not sure.

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Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #88 on: September 13, 2008, 03:34:47 AM »
One more, requested by MS.
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Kuroimaken

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Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #89 on: September 13, 2008, 04:38:45 AM »
Okay, my two biggest beefs with using feats as a means to balance out monster races.

1) Certain abilities are, plain and simple, too damn fucking powerful to work as a feat, and possibly not replicable as a spell. Case in point (since dragons were mentioned earlier), Dragon Breath weapons, and pretty much every (Su) ability on the MM. Most (Ex) abilities can be replicated with a feat, though.

2) This can be a pretty big penalty on, for example, melee types, who could really use every feat they can get (assuming they're not Fighters). Accounting for the different stat bonuses is no mean feat, either.
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Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #90 on: September 13, 2008, 04:47:53 AM »
1) Dragons are out of this discussion for the time being, as I already stated that they are in horrible need of mechanical work. Not to mention that low level dragons have weak breath weapons. So yeah. I'm interested in a counter point example though. I don't think the ones done so far are too bad. Thoughts on those?

2)While it may be a problem for melee types RIGHT NOW, I don't think that will stick. I've glanced at the other threads. Things are changing, and I don't think any ONE class is to be more feat dependant than another. Same with combat style. Sure feats are a rare resource not to be taken lightly, but would you rather forfeit 1-2 feats or 4-8 levels? I personally would rather lose a feat or two than a quarter or more of my levels (HD, BAB, etc).
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Kuroimaken

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Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #91 on: September 13, 2008, 01:59:18 PM »
Quote
1) Dragons are out of this discussion for the time being, as I already stated that they are in horrible need of mechanical work. Not to mention that low level dragons have weak breath weapons. So yeah. I'm interested in a counter point example though. I don't think the ones done so far are too bad. Thoughts on those?
Okay, how about this: trying to make a nymph on that basis.

What we have now:
+7 LA
+6 Dex, +2 Con, +6 Int, +6 Wis, +8 Cha
Su abilities: Stunning glance (Gaze attack for stun, Fort Save, 2d4 rounds), Blinding Beauty (Looking directly at the nymph means making a Fort save or being blinded permanently), Unearthly Grace (Cha to saves and as a deflection bonus to AC)
SLAs: Dimension Door 1/day
Spells as a 7th-level druid.
What makes a nymph: being smokin' hot and graceful and using that hawtness as a weapon.

Obviously, Blinding Beauty poses a massive problem here. It's the equivalent of a 2nd-level spell but with a scaling DC, which is active ALL THE TIME. At the lowest levels, this is overkill - it's way too good for a feat you'd take on 1st level, since nymph isn't a template, but a creature. Unearthly Grace poses another problem as well, as it's more powerful than a class feature (the paladin WISHES he had this instead of his puny Divine Grace). Dimension Door can be tossed out the window, and as per your design, levels in druid cover the rest. That still leaves +15 points worth of modifiers to deal with (although I do wonder why they have high Int... maybe it's to avoid dumb blonde jokes. The Wis is justified from the Druid spellcasting).
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AfterCrescent

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Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #92 on: September 13, 2008, 08:37:28 PM »
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AstralFire

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Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #93 on: September 14, 2008, 11:30:44 AM »
Have y'all considered rebuilding races as bloodlines?


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Kuroimaken

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Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #94 on: September 14, 2008, 02:14:32 PM »
Quote
Have y'all considered rebuilding races as bloodlines?

I haven't really looked much on bloodlines, but I was under the impression that taking bloodline levels meant gaining next to nothing save for the abilities...

Quote
I went ahead and did the Nymph for you, Kuro. Seemed pretty simple and not too difficult.

I think she's missing Dex bonuses. Has to do with the whole graceful thing. Also, why the penalty to strength?

And as I mentioned, the problem with Unearthly Grace is that it grants her something better than a class feature. A feat shouldn't do that (though in some cases it does. Lyric Spell, anyone?). She should probably gain that at level 9 or so.
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Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #95 on: September 14, 2008, 04:21:27 PM »
Yeah, bloodlines are basically step-by-step LA. So... No. :P

Kuro: Where does it say the Nymph is graceful? I read the fluff and all I came away with is "Hot Woman." I don't think they need a dex bonus either from a fluff or mechanical standpoint. Here's what I saw and what I've been doing with the stats. 1) Remove the appropriate number of stat points from the highest stat (A nymph has 6 HD, so 1 stat point comes out of Cha). 2) Determine if the example build uses two stats or one. in the case of the Astral Deva, it used one (All 18s). In the case of the Nymph it used 2 (12 and 16). 3)Determine stat differences based on that. In the case of the Deva it comes with +2 Str, +2 Cha. The Nymph has a 10 in Str and an 18 in Cha. Since the other stats are 12 (con) and 16/17 (Dex, Int, Wis), that means it doesn't have stat bonuses for either. So we come out with -2 Str and +2 Cha.

As for unearthly grace - So what? It's generally considered that Paladins are sub-par. And lots of feats are equal to or better than class features. A lot aren't, too. It's your opinion that "feats shouldn't be better than class features."  The very fact that Fighters have feats as class features counters that point. Feats are something you, usually, only get about 7 of. Giving 2 of them up, is forfeiting a valuable resource. Instead you get something A) Useful and B) Relevant to your racial choice. I think it's a reasonable thing.  Not to mention, even more so, Unearthly Grace hasn't been made into a feat, yet. When it does, since the more I think about the more I think 2 feats is the max you'd be willing to give up, it will be an optional feat and all optional feats will only be available after you take the required racial feats. So I think someone spending a feat to get unearthly grace at level 12 is not unbalanced. YMMV.
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AstralFire

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Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #96 on: September 14, 2008, 05:37:21 PM »
Actually, bloodlines are better than LA. They advance your levels in all classes for purposes of determining max skill points and caster/initiator/class level for any effects dependent upon those things. And since the level hit is spread out, the HP hit won't be as severe at any one time as long as you stay away from, like, LA +6 and higher. For multiclass characters, a bloodline could theoretically actually give them a power boost, though they'd need a significant number of classes to benefit from at once without needing spells per day.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2008, 05:43:36 PM by AstralFire »


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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #97 on: September 14, 2008, 06:53:11 PM »
For academic purposes... Let's say an LA 2, 2 HD race had this ability:

This creature has a caster level equal to its HD which it may use to cast illusion spells as per the sorcerer progression (so 1-3 HD = cantrips and first level illusions, 4-5 HD = 2nd level illusions and lower, and so forth). Any illusion spell may be used with this ability provided that its caster level can support a spell of that level. The save DC for any illusions produced with this supernatural ability is 10 + half HD + Cha modifier, with a bonus to the save DC of 1 + 1 per 3 HD the creature possesses to a maximum bonus of 9. This ability is usable once per day, + 1 use per 3 HD until 18 HD, where this ability can be used at will.

Summary: 2 HD (minimum value) means casting any cantrip or 1st level illusion spell 1/day, save DC 12 + Cha.

6 HD (add a few class levels) means any cantrip, 1st, 2nd, or 3rd level illusion is available 3/day, save DC 16 + Cha.

18 HD (just before epic) means any illusion of any level at will, save DC 26 + Cha.

The DC booster is there because illusions are outright negated pretty easily, and most don't have a save anyways so giving the ones that do a little help to make up for True Seeing instant win... Yeah.

Does the scaling make this actually worth taking and keeping? There are other abilities, but they're all minor stuff.
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Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #98 on: September 14, 2008, 11:16:48 PM »
Actually, bloodlines are better than LA. They advance your levels in all classes for purposes of determining max skill points and caster/initiator/class level for any effects dependent upon those things. And since the level hit is spread out, the HP hit won't be as severe at any one time as long as you stay away from, like, LA +6 and higher. For multiclass characters, a bloodline could theoretically actually give them a power boost, though they'd need a significant number of classes to benefit from at once without needing spells per day.
You say they're better, but they're still LA. They're just LA that grants a bonus to class. They don't give HD, BAB, skill points, saves, etc. That hurts. It just flat out hurts and isn't worth it. So yeah, they're better than LA, but they're still crap, IMO.  The fact that you can then use bloodlines to break multiclassing open further hurts the system and does not help to fix/improve it.

@ Sunic: What? Exactly what point or effect are you trying to get to?
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Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #99 on: September 15, 2008, 01:39:46 AM »
Quote
Kuro: Where does it say the Nymph is graceful? I read the fluff and all I came away with is "Hot Woman." I don't think they need a dex bonus either from a fluff or mechanical standpoint. Here's what I saw and what I've been doing with the stats. 1) Remove the appropriate number of stat points from the highest stat (A nymph has 6 HD, so 1 stat point comes out of Cha). 2) Determine if the example build uses two stats or one. in the case of the Astral Deva, it used one (All 18s). In the case of the Nymph it used 2 (12 and 16). 3)Determine stat differences based on that. In the case of the Deva it comes with +2 Str, +2 Cha. The Nymph has a 10 in Str and an 18 in Cha. Since the other stats are 12 (con) and 16/17 (Dex, Int, Wis), that means it doesn't have stat bonuses for either. So we come out with -2 Str and +2 Cha.

Ah, now I see where your logic comes from; it makes more sense that way. I guess my only counter for the graceful thing... is they have Unearthly Grace?  :P

Quote
As for unearthly grace - So what? It's generally considered that Paladins are sub-par. And lots of feats are equal to or better than class features. A lot aren't, too. It's your opinion that "feats shouldn't be better than class features."  The very fact that Fighters have feats as class features counters that point. Feats are something you, usually, only get about 7 of. Giving 2 of them up, is forfeiting a valuable resource. Instead you get something A) Useful and B) Relevant to your racial choice. I think it's a reasonable thing.  Not to mention, even more so, Unearthly Grace hasn't been made into a feat, yet. When it does, since the more I think about the more I think 2 feats is the max you'd be willing to give up, it will be an optional feat and all optional feats will only be available after you take the required racial feats. So I think someone spending a feat to get unearthly grace at level 12 is not unbalanced. YMMV.

I was just giving an example of how a (Su) ability can wreak some havoc on the idea of evening things out by spending two feats. This isn't the most particularly overpowered of them by any stretch of the imagination, but it's there.

I don't recall which creature it's from, but there's a (Su) ability out there that basically says you get Hide in Plain Sight except under direct sunlight. HiPS is an ability you tend to gain on mid to high levels (most commonly by becoming a Shadowdancer or being a high-level ranger, off the top of my head). From a balance standpoint I'd find it a bit dangerous to give someone that kind of ability as early as level 3 - at low levels, Hide is pretty much indistinguishable from Invisibility except for the fact you need a hiding place or a distraction to begin with.
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