Author Topic: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]  (Read 24170 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Prime32

  • Administrator
  • Organ Grinder
  • *
  • Posts: 7534
  • Modding since 03/12/10
Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #60 on: September 12, 2008, 06:18:41 PM »
No, the LA is still too high... but at least it's caster level 20 now. (and those extra HD might get converted to d12s)
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

AfterCrescent

  • Honorary Moderator
  • Organ Grinder
  • *
  • Posts: 4220
  • Here After
Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #61 on: September 12, 2008, 06:22:08 PM »
That's my point though. Even with d12s, it's still terrible. In contrast, would you be willing to give up a feat or maybe two to be a wizard 20 with the lich template?
The cake is a lie.
Need to play table top? Get your game on at:
Brilliant Gameologists' PbP Forum. Do it, you know you want to.
The 3.5 Cleric Handbook
The 13th Guard - An alternate history campaign idea.
Clerics just wake up one morning and decide they need to kick ass, and it needs to be kicked NOW. ~veekie

AstralFire

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 498
  • Up the Ante
    • The Anteheroes
Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #62 on: September 12, 2008, 06:53:22 PM »
Astral: Fighter vs warblade is a fine example of same-fluff different mechanics. But compare that to a Minotaur with 6HD vs a Minotaur with 3 class HD and +6 HP. The fluff may be the same, but the mechanics don't work well. That's the problem, if I'm understanding it, with the 2E/4E system.  Also I truly just don't think the "PCs break the laws of reality" mentality works.

Except it's not breaking the laws of reality. Minions do that (though they can be fluffed out in such a way it's impossible to notice.) All it means is that the custom-built strongman Minotaur got much better at doing what he was doing all around. A problem only arises if the PCs are aware of the NPCs stats and the NPCs are kept at an equivalent ECL.

Keep an LA as a marker of the amount of HD the PC version of the race should have before they're allowed, if you want. Solars won't work as a level 1 race and never should.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2008, 06:56:28 PM by AstralFire »


Avatar: The Last d20 Supplement
The Discussion Thread - Help!
Current Project: The Anteheroes System: 2nd Edition, a quick and tactical modern fantasy system.

Better to be stupid and humble than smart and arrogant. A humble man can change and improve. An arrogant man won't.

AfterCrescent

  • Honorary Moderator
  • Organ Grinder
  • *
  • Posts: 4220
  • Here After
Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #63 on: September 12, 2008, 06:56:21 PM »
Except it's not breaking the laws of reality. Minions do that (though they can be fluffed out in such a way it's impossible to notice.) All it means is that the custom-built strongman Minotaur got much better at doing what he was doing all around. A problem only arises if the PCs are aware of the NPCs stats and the NPCs are kept at an equivalent ECL.
The game needs to be able to run with and without metagaming, IMO. Hiding things from the PCs doesn't fly for a lot of games, so it shouldn't be the solution. Having the rules suddenly change because you are a PC stretches even my imagination.
The cake is a lie.
Need to play table top? Get your game on at:
Brilliant Gameologists' PbP Forum. Do it, you know you want to.
The 3.5 Cleric Handbook
The 13th Guard - An alternate history campaign idea.
Clerics just wake up one morning and decide they need to kick ass, and it needs to be kicked NOW. ~veekie

AstralFire

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 498
  • Up the Ante
    • The Anteheroes
Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #64 on: September 12, 2008, 06:57:31 PM »
The game needs to be able to run with and without metagaming, IMO. Hiding things from the PCs doesn't fly for a lot of games, so it shouldn't be the solution. Having the rules suddenly change because you are a PC stretches even my imagination.

But even then, it's only an issue if you think of the PC classes as the only way for someone to advance, which is clearly false. It's not like the class set-up handles a scholar well at all.


Avatar: The Last d20 Supplement
The Discussion Thread - Help!
Current Project: The Anteheroes System: 2nd Edition, a quick and tactical modern fantasy system.

Better to be stupid and humble than smart and arrogant. A humble man can change and improve. An arrogant man won't.

AfterCrescent

  • Honorary Moderator
  • Organ Grinder
  • *
  • Posts: 4220
  • Here After
Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #65 on: September 12, 2008, 06:59:52 PM »
Really? I thought it did. NPC - Expert.
The cake is a lie.
Need to play table top? Get your game on at:
Brilliant Gameologists' PbP Forum. Do it, you know you want to.
The 3.5 Cleric Handbook
The 13th Guard - An alternate history campaign idea.
Clerics just wake up one morning and decide they need to kick ass, and it needs to be kicked NOW. ~veekie

Elennsar

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1944
  • The Emperor is watching, the Emperor knows.
    • Email
Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #66 on: September 12, 2008, 07:03:49 PM »
Experts will do, though its imperfect. Let's talk about this classwise if we do.

Personally, I think the PCs should be able to determine when something is a "Fighter" if there's something defined that makes a "Fighter" different than a "Barbarian" than a "Ranger".

Not likely to be just at a glance, but it should not be impossible to tell.
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

AfterCrescent

  • Honorary Moderator
  • Organ Grinder
  • *
  • Posts: 4220
  • Here After
Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #67 on: September 12, 2008, 07:13:01 PM »
Agreed. But I also think "Fighter" is a generic term. "Did you see the way that guy looks at the elves in our party, he must hate them!" Ranger. "Oh my god, are those eyes glowing red? Did he just throw an ox?!" Barbarian. That kind of thing.  That probably goes in the class thread or another one.

Anyways, after chatting with Elennsar on MSN, I tried this out on the Ghost template, since theoretically it should work.  Any feedback on the Astral Deva or Ghost or formula in general would be nice :D
[spoiler]Ghost (Template)
The cake is a lie.
Need to play table top? Get your game on at:
Brilliant Gameologists' PbP Forum. Do it, you know you want to.
The 3.5 Cleric Handbook
The 13th Guard - An alternate history campaign idea.
Clerics just wake up one morning and decide they need to kick ass, and it needs to be kicked NOW. ~veekie

Elennsar

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1944
  • The Emperor is watching, the Emperor knows.
    • Email
Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #68 on: September 12, 2008, 07:19:28 PM »
Hmmmm. Now here's a question. If I (let's say I'm a 6th level fighter and a Ghost) did this, how would this compare to a 6th level human.

Someone feeling bored to playtest AC's theory? I don't want to make him do it.

I think it could work. I'm just not familiar enough with this part of the system to judge it.

The feats should cover what "being a ghost" is about, however. Maybe too much in one feat, but I think all the important stuff is here.
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

AfterCrescent

  • Honorary Moderator
  • Organ Grinder
  • *
  • Posts: 4220
  • Here After
Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #69 on: September 12, 2008, 07:22:29 PM »
One thing to note with the Ghost, at least in its current incarnation is that say you are level 7 and die, dropping you to level 6, your level 6 feat becomes feat 1. The next feat you take/get becomes Feat 2. As a ghost, you kind of have to take them in succession :D
The cake is a lie.
Need to play table top? Get your game on at:
Brilliant Gameologists' PbP Forum. Do it, you know you want to.
The 3.5 Cleric Handbook
The 13th Guard - An alternate history campaign idea.
Clerics just wake up one morning and decide they need to kick ass, and it needs to be kicked NOW. ~veekie

AstralFire

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 498
  • Up the Ante
    • The Anteheroes
Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #70 on: September 12, 2008, 07:22:47 PM »
Really? I thought it did. NPC - Expert.

The operative word was 'well'. Expert's a good adventuring, uh, expert, sure.

There's too many classes to assign a unique feel to each and every one of them.


Avatar: The Last d20 Supplement
The Discussion Thread - Help!
Current Project: The Anteheroes System: 2nd Edition, a quick and tactical modern fantasy system.

Better to be stupid and humble than smart and arrogant. A humble man can change and improve. An arrogant man won't.

AfterCrescent

  • Honorary Moderator
  • Organ Grinder
  • *
  • Posts: 4220
  • Here After
Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #71 on: September 12, 2008, 07:27:21 PM »
Okay, maybe I'm not following you well, Astral. I admit I don't know 4E mechanics. Exactly what is your proposition for getting rid of LA?
The cake is a lie.
Need to play table top? Get your game on at:
Brilliant Gameologists' PbP Forum. Do it, you know you want to.
The 3.5 Cleric Handbook
The 13th Guard - An alternate history campaign idea.
Clerics just wake up one morning and decide they need to kick ass, and it needs to be kicked NOW. ~veekie

AstralFire

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 498
  • Up the Ante
    • The Anteheroes
Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #72 on: September 12, 2008, 07:42:04 PM »
Okay, maybe I'm not following you well, Astral. I admit I don't know 4E mechanics. Exactly what is your proposition for getting rid of LA?

Oh, you followed me alright - PC versions of monsters and battle-ready NPC versions. I was just providing explanations for why there'd be differences in the mechanics and noting other instances of the actual cut-and-dry classes failing to represent something well.

But if you want to know more about my thought processes, you could always read the rest of my thread and help give it activity. :D


Avatar: The Last d20 Supplement
The Discussion Thread - Help!
Current Project: The Anteheroes System: 2nd Edition, a quick and tactical modern fantasy system.

Better to be stupid and humble than smart and arrogant. A humble man can change and improve. An arrogant man won't.

AfterCrescent

  • Honorary Moderator
  • Organ Grinder
  • *
  • Posts: 4220
  • Here After
Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #73 on: September 12, 2008, 07:56:08 PM »
But how would you go about implementing that? Like I said, if it's the 4E mechanic, I don't know it.

Currently my thoughts are along the line of looking at a creature/template and instead of seeing it as a "Monster" see it as a race/class combination. Because that's what, in my experience, defines D&D. For instance, the Astral Deva is a race, but the example version of it in the MM, is an Astral Deva Cleric 12. Odd way to look at it, but I think that doing so (especially if there's a way to standardize it for creatures) will allow for the removal of LA and still not steer away from reality (which is what I think happens when you take a monster like a Minotaur and completely redesign it to function as a PC).  I may be talking in circles, so let me know if I am. :P
The cake is a lie.
Need to play table top? Get your game on at:
Brilliant Gameologists' PbP Forum. Do it, you know you want to.
The 3.5 Cleric Handbook
The 13th Guard - An alternate history campaign idea.
Clerics just wake up one morning and decide they need to kick ass, and it needs to be kicked NOW. ~veekie

AstralFire

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 498
  • Up the Ante
    • The Anteheroes
Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #74 on: September 12, 2008, 08:03:13 PM »
See, there isn't a mechanic is the dealy. It's a manual thing.

Most of the 4E monsters though are still closer to a PC race than 3E - it's just that they don't bother keeping level-inappropriate powers and such listed since it's not needed.

I see what you're saying, but there's not going to be a way to standardize it. 3E's modularity meant that a lot of things early on were pretty slapdash. (Spell-like abilities I've always thought have been really bad, for example.)


Avatar: The Last d20 Supplement
The Discussion Thread - Help!
Current Project: The Anteheroes System: 2nd Edition, a quick and tactical modern fantasy system.

Better to be stupid and humble than smart and arrogant. A humble man can change and improve. An arrogant man won't.

AfterCrescent

  • Honorary Moderator
  • Organ Grinder
  • *
  • Posts: 4220
  • Here After
Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #75 on: September 12, 2008, 08:05:05 PM »
What makes you say it's impossible to standardize? Opinion only?

Spell-likes are covered easily, if they're crappy like a gnome's you're set. If they're real like a Pit Fiend or Angel, they have levels in a casting class.
The cake is a lie.
Need to play table top? Get your game on at:
Brilliant Gameologists' PbP Forum. Do it, you know you want to.
The 3.5 Cleric Handbook
The 13th Guard - An alternate history campaign idea.
Clerics just wake up one morning and decide they need to kick ass, and it needs to be kicked NOW. ~veekie

AstralFire

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 498
  • Up the Ante
    • The Anteheroes
Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #76 on: September 12, 2008, 08:25:27 PM »
What makes you say it's impossible to standardize? Opinion only?

Spell-likes are covered easily, if they're crappy like a gnome's you're set. If they're real like a Pit Fiend or Angel, they have levels in a casting class.

No dice on the plug for my thread, eh?

What classes and levels would you give the previous group? HD for class level definitely doesn't work for things like the dragons.


Avatar: The Last d20 Supplement
The Discussion Thread - Help!
Current Project: The Anteheroes System: 2nd Edition, a quick and tactical modern fantasy system.

Better to be stupid and humble than smart and arrogant. A humble man can change and improve. An arrogant man won't.

AfterCrescent

  • Honorary Moderator
  • Organ Grinder
  • *
  • Posts: 4220
  • Here After
Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #77 on: September 12, 2008, 08:30:46 PM »
Which thread? Anteheroes? I'll check it out, but a d6 system varies drastically from a d20 system.

As for the suggested monsters, they'd all be doable. The biggest problem, which I readily admit, is dragons. But not all dragons are meant to be played. Simple as that. Hence the lack of LA for most of them.
The cake is a lie.
Need to play table top? Get your game on at:
Brilliant Gameologists' PbP Forum. Do it, you know you want to.
The 3.5 Cleric Handbook
The 13th Guard - An alternate history campaign idea.
Clerics just wake up one morning and decide they need to kick ass, and it needs to be kicked NOW. ~veekie

Kuroimaken

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 6733
Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #78 on: September 12, 2008, 09:03:04 PM »
Quote
First off, Kuro. LA sucks. I'll say it over and over again until someone can prove me wrong. That may be why I glanced over your suggestion. I'm working to get rid of LA, because it blows. so handing out Xp changes for LA doesn't help balance it.

And just because some ALL racial feats in 3e suck, doesn't mean we can't do better.  Not to mention I don't agree with your analysis on the worth of stats. So yeah, that's not a debate for here, though.

I do plan on figuring out a way to deal with the stat adjustments, though. That's one of the aspects to the formula I want to figure out.

Fix'd. I'm not arguing that LA blows, really; I was just proposing a simple fix based off data we already have instead of trying to conjure up something entirely new - the math of which might end up frying our brains. As far as cathegorizing LA goes, the job is theoretically done. As far as cathegorizing each individual part of what makes up LA goes, however, we're screwed.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


AfterCrescent

  • Honorary Moderator
  • Organ Grinder
  • *
  • Posts: 4220
  • Here After
Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #79 on: September 12, 2008, 09:11:05 PM »
Um. No. I present you with the Dragonwrought feat and watch you smack yourself. :P

Either way, simple fixes don't work because they keep LA around. I know it's not going to be easy, but a community of intelligent people should be able to do it.
The cake is a lie.
Need to play table top? Get your game on at:
Brilliant Gameologists' PbP Forum. Do it, you know you want to.
The 3.5 Cleric Handbook
The 13th Guard - An alternate history campaign idea.
Clerics just wake up one morning and decide they need to kick ass, and it needs to be kicked NOW. ~veekie