Author Topic: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]  (Read 24171 times)

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Mister_Sinister

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Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #120 on: September 18, 2008, 09:38:41 AM »
Not necessarily - they could be treated more or less the same way as we are treating LAs, except they either offer their benefits only at specific levels or higher (when you no longer care as much about their unbalancing potential) or have them cost you a feat after you acquire them (which I dislike, but can be done). If someone wants to play a gnoll ghost, or a half-celestial dire wereboar, heck, let them set feats on fire for having crazy shit going for them.

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AfterCrescent

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Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #121 on: September 18, 2008, 05:45:48 PM »
Exactly. If you want to be a crazy templated monster, it'll just cost you all those lovely feats. And you can't take more templates than you have feats. :P  Although templates may require more work than races (or less, depending, I'm honestly not sure).

I've been wondering about the abilities and building feats. I'm thinking some creatures may only need 1 feat (Gnoll, for example), while others could probably use up all 7. I want to see if a formula can be built for only using 1 or 2 feats, max.  I know Spells and Spell-likes can be duplicated via casting classes, but that still leaves things like Su and Ex abilities, also Immunities, Dr, etc.  Anyone got an idea for a general ranking of importance?
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Kuroimaken

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Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #122 on: September 18, 2008, 06:49:10 PM »
Quote
Exactly. If you want to be a crazy templated monster, it'll just cost you all those lovely feats. And you can't take more templates than you have feats.   Although templates may require more work than races (or less, depending, I'm honestly not sure).

I've been wondering about the abilities and building feats. I'm thinking some creatures may only need 1 feat (Gnoll, for example), while others could probably use up all 7. I want to see if a formula can be built for only using 1 or 2 feats, max.  I know Spells and Spell-likes can be duplicated via casting classes, but that still leaves things like Su and Ex abilities, also Immunities, Dr, etc.  Anyone got an idea for a general ranking of importance?

Immunities tend to stem from type more often than not (immunity to mind-affecting effects is particularly common on this one), while (Su) abilities are often exclusive to specific creatures/races (exception made to templates and creatures with similar abilities), and (Ex) abilities are all over the place. Overall, I think Sp=>Su>Ex. Dr is a trickier issue, though sometimes it stems from type (outsiders) while other times it's a creature thing.
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Mister_Sinister

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Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #123 on: September 18, 2008, 07:54:13 PM »
Immunities is something that I believe should be reigned in, for reasons I have already stated, so I wouldn't object to them being high situational bonuses instead, if this is applied across the board.

The easiest way to solve the SLA issue is just assign them gradually, scaling with level as appropriate. DR could be done in the same way: simply divide DR/CR, and use that as the amount granted at each level (including 1st).

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AfterCrescent

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Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #124 on: September 18, 2008, 08:35:40 PM »
The big issue I have is that not EVERYTHING that a current race has should be transferred to it race if we're setting a limit of 2 feats. Otherwise there would never be a reason to play something like an elf or dwarf.
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Mister_Sinister

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Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #125 on: September 18, 2008, 08:56:16 PM »
This is true - and quite honestly, if something requires that many feats according to our approach, it should have LA: -. Like, really.

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RobbyPants

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Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #126 on: September 19, 2008, 10:32:15 AM »
A question regarding feats:

Do you have to take them as soon as possible, or can you take other class-related feats, and postpone a race feat until later?  For that matter, do you even have to take the race feat if you don't want it?
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AfterCrescent

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Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #127 on: September 19, 2008, 07:01:48 PM »
Yes, no, yes.

The feats (assuming of course we can create a formula) are going to be assigned levels for when the come into play, ranging from level 1 (for the gnoll, for example) to levels 9 & 12 (although that would be one of the highest level monsters). I'm aiming for a 3&6 or 6&9 balance point.

If you look at my examples thus far they've had a level associated with them. You must spend your X level feat to take that feat. It is not optional and cannot be delayed for other class related feats.  I have been thinking about allowing them to be taken as bonus feat for a class, but the more I think about it the less I like that idea.

So here's how it currently looks. You want to play race A. You get the basics for the race A as determined by the formula. At level 3 you spend your feat to get feat 1 for race A. Then at level 6 you spend that feat to get feat 2 for race A. These are non-negotiable. You sacrifice some choice for more power. Opportunity cost and all that.

The way I've been thinking about templates under this system is that they have a minimum level to take. So let's say you grabbed 1/2 dragon or something and it has a feat at level 6&9. But you want to play a 1/2 dragon of race A. So you take the race A feats, but level 9 & 12 are your 1/2 dragon feats, for example.  Still kind of brainstorming this part of the procedure.
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Kuroimaken

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Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #128 on: September 19, 2008, 08:44:29 PM »
Yeah, the big problem is DEFINITELY going to lie with templates. As an exercise, how would you do the Feral template (easily one of the most broken stuff out there)?
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AfterCrescent

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Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #129 on: September 20, 2008, 12:22:55 AM »
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Kuroimaken

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Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #130 on: September 20, 2008, 06:06:55 AM »
Certainly looks less of a gimme than the original template to me.
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AfterCrescent

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Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #131 on: September 20, 2008, 03:47:52 PM »
How so? Its exactly what you normally get via the template.

Go read it carefully, pounce and all that shit only works if you have Monstrous HD.
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Bauglir

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Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #132 on: September 21, 2008, 01:54:13 AM »
Hm... a little tangential, but I agree on the immunities. I tend to make them +20 on the appropriate d20 roll. Energy Immunities notwithstanding for damage (since that's a different mechanic than other immunities, as far as I can tell), and immunity to mind-affecting effects for mindless things. Immune to critical hits? Ok, your AC is 20 higher for the purposes of confirming. Light fortification? 5 higher. Immune to poison? Ok, you're not gonna fail, but you still could roll a 1.
So you end up stuck in an endless loop, unable to act, forever.

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Kuroimaken

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Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #133 on: September 21, 2008, 03:37:27 AM »
Huh. You know, you're right. Not that it makes any sense for things to work out that way, but you're right.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

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AfterCrescent

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Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #134 on: September 21, 2008, 04:23:52 AM »
Okay, so I'm slightly inebriated, so correct me if this seems in any way illogical.

Sp and Spells are nixed. Those can be gotten via a class or similar.

Ex > Su because Ex functions in AMF.

Size > Natural Armor. That makes sense right? I hope so.

So looking at abilities we cut the following: Sp, Su, and Anything that also functions as a class feature (Astral Deva and uncanny dodge, I'm lookin' at you.)

Then we rank Ex > Su > Size > Nat armor. What else am I missing?
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RobbyPants

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Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #135 on: September 22, 2008, 09:37:24 AM »
Size > Natural Armor. That makes sense right? I hope so.
I'd say you're right, most of the time.  I guess if you're talking about +15 NA vs one size increase that might be different. :P

Also, when you say size, I tend to think of anything non-medium or small.  Being larger than medium has obvious advantages to melee characters, but being smaller than small can be a big boost to arcane classes as well as some others.  So long as you stay out of melee, it can be wonderful.


So looking at abilities we cut the following: Sp, Su, and Anything that also functions as a class feature (Astral Deva and uncanny dodge, I'm lookin' at you.)
Some of these might be quite hard.  Do you think a medusa's ability could be reflected as a feat, or do you think it needs to be a spell that only a caster could have?
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Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
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Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
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I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
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AfterCrescent

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Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #136 on: September 22, 2008, 05:03:24 PM »
I'd say you're right, most of the time.  I guess if you're talking about +15 NA vs one size increase that might be different. :P
True. My thought process is more for getting a baseline structure to create the racial class. For instant, gnolls don't have Ex or Su abilities, but if they were larger, I'd rather give them a feat for being large than one for their +1 NA. And I really don't think they'd deserve two feats. ;)

I guess I'm getting the feeling that a lot of NA is going to go away, since it's just not worth a feat and the other abilities are. I mean some things that have +12 NA may want that, but I think that'll fall into the whole "optional extra feats" area.

Quote
Also, when you say size, I tend to think of anything non-medium or small.  Being larger than medium has obvious advantages to melee characters, but being smaller than small can be a big boost to arcane classes as well as some others.  So long as you stay out of melee, it can be wonderful.
That's exactly what I was thinking. Non-normal size (medium & small). :D

Quote
Some of these might be quite hard.  Do you think a medusa's ability could be reflected as a feat, or do you think it needs to be a spell that only a caster could have?
I'd say maybe it could be a feat, but medusa's don't have LA, so if this turns into that larger project after we get the baseline down, then we'll work on the critters with LA --. As of now, snake-lady doesn't get the attention she wants. ;)
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RobbyPants

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Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #137 on: September 22, 2008, 05:46:45 PM »
I'd say maybe it could be a feat, but medusa's don't have LA, so if this turns into that larger project after we get the baseline down, then we'll work on the critters with LA --. As of now, snake-lady doesn't get the attention she wants. ;)
You're right.  I forgot their LA was -.  I remember statting one up as an NPC, but then CR was all that really mattered.  I agree that we should focus on creatures with a numeric LA first.  Otherwise your game would be nothing but chokers!  :o
My balancing 3.5 compendium
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Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

AfterCrescent

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Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #138 on: September 24, 2008, 01:41:21 PM »
Robby, quick question (or really for anyone who has kept up on the Skills/Feats thread (since I'm not reading through 7 pages of that)...

Do we have a standard for a balanced feat yet? Or an example "good" feat?
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veekie

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Re: Level Adjustments [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #139 on: September 28, 2008, 02:38:02 PM »
Not sure if anyone had already thought of this one, but how about doing race as if it were a gestalt with classes?

Pixie LA 4+1 HD//Rogue 1
10,000 xp  //0 xp, gains xp as a 5th(10,000-15,000xp) level character

Pixie LA 4+1 HD//Rogue 2
10,000 xp  //1,000 xp, gains xp as a 5th(10,000-15,000xp) level character

Pixie LA 4+1 HD//Rogue 3
10,000 xp  //3,000 xp, gains xp as a 5th(10,000-15,000xp) level character

Pixie LA 4+1 HD//Rogue 4
10,000 xp  //6,000 xp, gains xp as a 6th(15,000-21,000xp) level character

Pixie LA 4+1HD//Rogue 5
10,000 xp  //10,000xp, gains xp as a 6th(15,000-21,000xp) level character

Pixie LA 4+1//Rogue 10
10,000 xp  //45,000 xp, gains xp as a  11th(55,000-66,000xp) level character

Pixie LA 6+1//Rogue 10
21,000 xp//45,000 xp, gains xp as a  12th(66,000-78,000xp) level character

ECL is then based off total xp count, from both sides of the gestalt. The resulting character will lag behind an untemplated character, but only by a bit once hes more class leveled than ECLed

Any racial HD would simply then be gestalted(rather than becoming useless with caster classes or a dead weight with particularly flimsy racial HDs like fey) with the character class side of matters, and since many racial abilities(besides stats) taper off in usefulness as your class level goes up, they don't impede your experience gain as much, while their cost remains. For races that can advance further, simply pay the appropriate xp to raise the racial side, templates apply likewise.

Less effort needed than the splitting of everything into feats I think, though a further development of this into a more point like system could be assigning racial attributes an experience cost each and buying them as you advance. I personally think paying it off on the racial track would suffice.

You could expand this to include multiclassing as well(just add more gestalt 'tracks'), but the availability of dip abilities that remain useful despite being low level makes that kinda wonky. Not to mention accommodating for prestige classes(which would probably go on top one of your base class 'tracks')

EDIT:More examples, hopefully more clarity
« Last Edit: September 28, 2008, 04:58:39 PM by veekie »
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