Author Topic: D&D Equipment [Rebalancing 3.5]  (Read 81804 times)

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JaronK

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Re: D&D Equipment [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #320 on: October 07, 2008, 10:19:52 PM »
What's your benchmark for comparison?
If you could name a handful of classes you hold others to as a standard, what are they?

Wait, Siggy, this whole time you didn't know what the balance point was?  It's stated at the beginning of each one of these threads.  The standard is Tier 3.  That's Bards, Beguilers, Dread Necromancers, Crusaders, Warblades, Binders, and a few others I might be forgetting.

JaronK

SiggyDevil

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Re: D&D Equipment [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #321 on: October 07, 2008, 10:25:23 PM »
The standard is Tier 3.  That's Bards, Beguilers, Dread Necromancers, Crusaders, Warblades, Binders, and a few others I might be forgetting.

Don't stop there, where can I find an explanation of the rest? Found it quickly when I changed color setting for links.  :eh

This is very similar to my Spellcaster Benchmark Gestalt http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1888.msg63929#msg63929 even though I've never seen this "Tier" concept until arriving here.



JaronK

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Re: D&D Equipment [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #323 on: October 07, 2008, 11:15:00 PM »
It's in the first post of every one of these Rebalancing 3.5 threads that Robby started, including a link to the Tier system so everyone was on the same page.  Weren't you reading the threads before proposing revisions?

JaronK

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Equipment [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #324 on: October 07, 2008, 11:44:42 PM »
Also, if you want to see a bit of a feat reference, check out this post with some reworked feats.  The list isn't done, but it's a basis for what I want to do to some of these feats.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Elennsar

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Re: D&D Equipment [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #325 on: October 13, 2008, 02:55:07 PM »
Copying this directly from a post in the wrong thread (mea culpa!)

On the animated shield idea:

Other than finding percentile dice to be the most obnoxious things ever (honestly, I'm not all that comfortable, on tabletop, with anything other than a d6. Other die types are strange and unnatural. Online, its irrelevant. No, this isn't an arguement for using just d6. It's a statement of a personality foible.)...

I think that's a bit better. But it still has two problems:

1) 20% chance that a Perfect Attack misses. What the -fuck-?

2) Greatsword guy should not get a goddamn shield! Greatsword man decided that he'd accept being shieldless in exchange for the perks of greatswording instead of using (smaller) sword-and-board.

So, I'm still unhappy with the idea. I do think it could work, but...those are serious issues, at least to me.
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



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Sunic_Flames

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Re: D&D Equipment [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #326 on: October 13, 2008, 03:54:08 PM »
Aelryinth, shut the fuck up. Also, learn math. 1/6 =/= 20%.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

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And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Elennsar

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Re: D&D Equipment [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #327 on: October 13, 2008, 04:12:14 PM »
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Equipment [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #328 on: October 13, 2008, 04:14:42 PM »
He mentioned it because you brought up perfering d6s.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Elennsar

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Re: D&D Equipment [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #329 on: October 13, 2008, 04:19:56 PM »
...so what does it have to do with my comment on 20% missing? I stated a preference for d6s as part of why I dislike rolling percentile dice, that's it.
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Equipment [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #330 on: October 13, 2008, 04:25:01 PM »
1) 20% chance that a Perfect Attack misses. What the -fuck-?
Well, it was really just based off an existing mechanic is all.  I'm open to suggestions for how to fix an Animated Shield.


2) Greatsword guy should not get a goddamn shield! Greatsword man decided that he'd accept being shieldless in exchange for the perks of greatswording instead of using (smaller) sword-and-board.
That's called begging the question.  You're already assuming your conclusion in your premise.  Why can't someone have a floating shield in a fanatasy game?  I agree from a balance stand point that this shouldn't allow a greatsword guy to outclass a S&B fighter.  That's why I'm trying to re-write the ability.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Elennsar

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Re: D&D Equipment [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #331 on: October 13, 2008, 04:28:50 PM »
1) If any come to mind, I'll note them. I'm not sure what to do about it.

2) Its not the "can't have a floating shield", its that the Sword and Board guy should benefit from picking to use a shield, rather than feeling that anyone can get equivalant benefits and the benefits of THF or TWF.

After all, S&B involves giving up those benefits in exchange for the benefits of "guy with shield".

So...how to do this, I do not know. I do know that I don't want my S&Ber to feel that the greatsword guy is as well protected and better at damaging people. That just sucks.
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Equipment [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #332 on: October 13, 2008, 04:31:34 PM »
2) Its not the "can't have a floating shield", its that the Sword and Board guy should benefit from picking to use a shield, rather than feeling that anyone can get equivalant benefits and the benefits of THF or TWF.

After all, S&B involves giving up those benefits in exchange for the benefits of "guy with shield".
Part of my current version of the ability is that it doesn't count as a shield (other than it looks like one).  Thus, the THW and TWFs get their schtick and the use of a shield (of sorts), but the S&B fighter gets his sword & shield and a second shield (of sorts). 

Everyone keeps their styles intact and gets an identical benifit from the Animated Shield.  I think that's the core principle to balancing the ability.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: D&D Equipment [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #333 on: October 13, 2008, 04:41:41 PM »
I'm thinking while we're at it, turning the miss chances from cover and concealment into a bonus on AC/penalty on attack roll should be best, the flat miss chance does interesting things to the odds, maybe too interesting.
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It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

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I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

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RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Equipment [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #334 on: October 13, 2008, 04:43:41 PM »
A flat +2 AC bonus could work, so long as it applies to everyone.  It can't be a shield bonus, or the S&B guy gets boned.

I figure a price of about 8,000gp would work fine for this.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

McPoyo

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Re: D&D Equipment [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #335 on: October 13, 2008, 04:44:19 PM »
What's the advantage to using one then, if it protects the enemies as well as the user?
[Spoiler]
A gygaxian dungeon is like the world's most messed up game show.

Behind door number one: INSTANT DEATH!
Behind door number 2: A magic crown!
Behind door number 3: 4d6 giant bees, and THREE HUNDRED POUNDS OF HONEY!
They don't/haven't, was the point. 3.5 is as dead as people not liking nice tits.

Sometimes, their tits (3.5) get enhancements (houserules), but that doesn't mean people don't like nice tits.

Though sometimes, the surgeon (DM) botches them pretty bad...
Best metaphor I have seen in a long time.  I give you much fu.
Three Errata for the Mage-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Barbarian-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Monks doomed to die,
One for the Wizard on his dark throne
In the Land of Charop where the Shadows lie.
[/spoiler]

Elennsar

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Re: D&D Equipment [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #336 on: October 13, 2008, 04:46:54 PM »
Its still +2 to your AC, and if you're more confident in your ability to hit them than your ability to avoid being hit by them, that wouldn't be a bad trade at all.
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

veekie

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Re: D&D Equipment [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #337 on: October 13, 2008, 04:54:08 PM »
What's the advantage to using one then, if it protects the enemies as well as the user?

Since it's floating cover that you command, I presume the thing would get out of your way by itself or for perhaps get in the way of enemies whether or not you know it(if the basic version only guards from a specific direction/foe you designate on your turn,  an advanced version could guard against all foes/directions without getting in your way).
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Equipment [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #338 on: October 13, 2008, 04:59:14 PM »
3.5 doesn't handle facing, so I wasn't going to get that specific with the Animated Shield.  Also, it only applied the bonus to you.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

JaronK

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Re: D&D Equipment [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #339 on: October 13, 2008, 05:21:22 PM »
Since we're trying to buff a lot of melees, not hurt melees, I don't think nerfing Animated Shields in any way is a good plan, so long as they still count as wielding the shield as far as proficiency and armor check penalties and arcane spell failures go.

Now, I've already long ago proved that Sword and Board can be done pretty darn well (certainly, wielding a shield in your hand well is easy, it's harder to add in the sword because then you're both using a shield and two weapon fighting).  So we don't want to go overboard.  But a few more abilities that specificly work when you're holding the shield would be good.  Mostly, this would be best as feats, since that makes Fighters good at it.  And those feats should be helping fill a party role, so protecting the others or debilitating enemies, NOT making the wielder harder to hurt. 

We've talked about it a few times.  The best ideas were things like being able to give people behind you concealment/cover, various shield bash abilities, and a specific "Sword and Shield Style" feat that gave you useful abilities.

JaronK