D&D Equipment [Rebalancing 3.5]

[SiggyDevil]

LOL indeed. After 4+ hours of gaming, perhaps a beer or few, perhaps I'm getting hungry, I don't want to stare down yet another list of 3-digit calculations for my character's weight.


I think I made a mistake on the scale of the WP concept. Subtract the weight of everything by 1; the point is to not only abstract but to make the actual STR score work for carrying items without actually using that stupid chart on page 90-something of the PHB or whatever.


One could do away with math entirely; all items have a category of Feather (negligible), Light, Medium, Heavy, Drag (character can't pick it up; only push or pull), and Impossible.
Items have a default weight type, but the STR score would push an item's category up or down one or more steps.

[Elennsar]

I don't disagree entirely. Personally, the character's weight should be something about right for that height...and if it actually matters, we can get to it then.

As for the chart: I don't mind the chart.

As for the variant: In say, FUDGE, I'd be on this like a hungry tiger. But I don't want to introduce it to D&D or any game that does do detailed rules.

[SiggyDevil]

I don't play FUDGE though.
I'd like some abstraction and simplicity in the game I do play: D&D.

[Elennsar]

Well, to be brutally honest, if adding 25 and 30 is too much math for you, playing a rpg is probably not a good idea.

I don't mind simplifying the chart so that it makes some freakin' sense, like say "Light is up to Strength x2, Medium is up to x4, Heavy x10" or something.

But I don't want to do the abstract simplification.

[veekie]

Weight simplification works best as an alternate rule though, most people don't usually mind adding weights up, unless they are playing a low str character. Could broaden the weight reduction for size rule to include all worn items though(cloaks, hats, etc).

[McPoyo]

I've always used encumbrance rules. I've never had an issue (nor have any of my players, and I've had some pretty math challenged players) with them. How often are you swapping gear that you have to frequently recalculate your total carry?

And on the nature of small vs medium with encumbrance, it's really not that big an issue. If you're carrying enough stuff on your halfling rogue that you're having encumbrance issues, put it all in a haversack. If 5 lbs + armor + weapons puts you into medium load, you need lighter armor or something. Remember, encumbrance isn't additive with armor penalties, you use whichever is higher. Medium load and wearing medium armor have the same penalties. If you're wearing full plate? Push yourself to the limits on you capacity, it won't hurt you any. By the time this usually makes a show of it's ugly head (in terms of godawful amounts of loot), you are most likely going to have access to pocket dimensions in one way or another, through loot, purchase, or manufacture. If you're intentionally playing a low enough strength character that basic necessities of life (like my friends who have a spellbook and spell component pouch that puts them at the limits of their carry capacity into medium), then you need to play that character thinking like they would, and either cut down on gear, or work up another method in combat. Out of combat, encumbrance isn't an issue. Ever. (Unless I've missed a rule that says being in heavy load imposes penalties on overland travel). In combat if it's an issue, just drop the backpack/sack/basket/whatever you carry stuff in to get into light load. Pick it back up afterwards, no biggie.

[Elennsar]

Other than how encumbrance reduces base speed (which determines overland movement), there's no special effect.

[JaronK]

Encumbrance does give a penalty to a bunch of skills, much like armour check penalties (in fact, exactly like them).  This is why it matters so much for Rogues, who are wearing light armour and want to avoid such penalties as much as possible.  So yes, it definitely matters out of combat.  The statement "Out of combat, encumbrance isn't an issue. Ever." is simply false.  Likewise, the fact that it doesn't stack with armour hardly matters for Rogues, who aren't using medium armour anyway.  Medium load gives a -3 to hide, move silently, and a host of other important Rogue skills, while also lowering max dex to AC to +3, which matters a lot when you're dealing with traps (or worried about getting jumped if you get seen while scouting).

Again, it's critical for Rogues.  It comes up for scouts too.  It's not an issue for Fighters and the like who are in heavy armour anyway.

JaronK

[RobbyPants]

Okay.  Somewhere along the lines, I lost track of what the argument is about.

I don't see the encumberance system as it is written as a problem.  It's not that hard to use.  It provides a decent balancing factor for those who would dump their Str score.  If a group decides it's a  pain in the ass, they can easily drop it and house-rule it out.

From a balance standpoint, I don't think it needs any modification.

[McPoyo]

Elennsar: The relevant table is 9-2, same page as carrying capacity, page 162, for reference.

Jaron: I wasn't trying to mean that it doesn't matter, it can definitely make a difference if you've got to sneak into somewhere against alert or hard to avoid sentries or the like, but once again, if you've got to infiltrate something carrying enough crud to put you into medium capacity, you either need to a) have a temp buff thrown on your strength because it sucks pretty hard, b) consolidate the unnecessary crap out to leave with the other people in the party until you get back, or c) utilize the access to dimensional storage.

Since the only skills taking a check penalty are balance, climb, escape artist, hide, jump, move silently, sleight of hand, swim (twice), and tumble, I see only two that really consolidating gear down, or just flat out dropping gear won't immediately solve: Escape Artist (depending on the situational use), and Swim (and that just kind of sucks, but hey whatcha gonna do?). The rest, except in an absolute emergency type situation, could easily have gear left to be recovered after the check is done, or you probably shouldn't have your entire adventuring arsenal with you while doing in the first place. If the gear can't be left (balance over thin bridge over an environmental hazard, for example) and the -3 is really that big a problem for you as a rogue, I guarantee the rest of the party is screwed. A small rogue with crappy Str isn't going to be hosed in those situations anyhow, because even with the -3 I'm fairly certain he'll still have a higher modifier to add to the roll than most of the rest of the party. And once again, in combat, drop the carrying device when it starts that has your extra food and such (the non-combat essentials tend to weigh the most, coincidentally) and you won't have to worry about that +3 dex cap to your Armor. That's what I meant when I said "Out of combat, encumbrance isn't an issue. Ever.". If the work around is easy and doesn't take any time or effort to accomplish, then it's not an issue. Not any more of one that keeping track of durations of spell effects and the like, at least, imo.

[veekie]

Well, overall, I don't think encumbrance needs a fix, it works fine as is, though it might be stated more clearly that Small cloaks and worn magic items weigh less(which, considering that the various outfits have their weight reduced, and comprises essentially of the same things sans magic, should be the default anyway).

[RobbyPants]

That seems fair enough.  If you apply some common sense, it works well that small-sized items are half the weight.  It's just a matter of realizing which things wouldn't be small (such as the lock picks mentioned earlier).

[JaronK]

Also, realize that magic items resize.  If smaller magic items weigh less, you end up with halflings holding all the loot so the big Barbarian can carry the halfling and the loot and it weighs less that way... or some other such nonsense.  That's the issue with the idea of magic items weighing less if they're small, because now you have to define the size of the magic items and that's just bizarre.

JaronK

[Kuroimaken]

So who's up for making Str give HP bonuses? (or part of it anyway)

[JaronK]

What?  No!  Absolutely not!  Are you trying to make Warhulks insane?

JaronK

[RobbyPants]

I'd rather not.

[Kuroimaken]

What?  No!  Absolutely not!  Are you trying to make Warhulks insane?

Well, how else do you propose to increase the usefulness of Strength, really?

[JaronK]

It's already quite useful.  I don't see the problem.  For melees it's amazing.

JaronK

[ZeroSum]

The reason Str is useless in the current incarnation is that damage and other melee offensive options are relatively useless.  If we reduce the total amount of rocket tag and reduce the total viability of the Big 5 then Str will become much more potent as Str-based special attacks (Grapple, Bull Rush, etc.) are balanced up.

[JaronK]

The idea that strength is useless is bizarre.  It controls to hit, damage, trip mods, saves vs shield slam, etc.  Sure, melees as a whole are weaker, but strength is nothing like useless.

JaronK