Author Topic: D&D Equipment [Rebalancing 3.5]  (Read 81803 times)

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veekie

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Re: D&D Equipment [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #120 on: September 29, 2008, 05:44:57 AM »
As I said, personal preference only, on a purely mechanical basis, it's good to go.:)
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It's also a little cold because of that.
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I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Equipment [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #121 on: September 29, 2008, 10:20:46 AM »
So what would you suggest for the cost increase per category for adamantine?  The DR is much more significant than the DMG amount, but it can be overcome by adamantine weapons.  Still, it seems that WotC put a bit too much emphasis on DR when you look at what they give high level barbarians and adamantine.

Also, we're giving out anywhere from a +2 to +4 AC bonus as well.  Should that bonus be overcome by an adamantine weapon as well?
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Elennsar

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Re: D&D Equipment [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #122 on: September 29, 2008, 10:29:08 AM »
I would use the existing costs for the moment, testing to be sure.

As for overcoming the AC bonus...no.

Adamantine is still stronger then steel, and it is easier to strengthen armor then the cutting edge of a weapon.
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Equipment [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #123 on: September 29, 2008, 10:41:05 AM »
So, I guess for the time being, we'll use 5,000 gp per category.

Now, what about shields.  I realized we never discussed it.  I guess it might help to hammer out what exactly shields do before we worry too much about adamantine shields.

I'm iffy on granting shields a blocking mechanic.  It might complicate the game too much.  It would certainly make Combat Reflexes an even better feat.

I guess I've read several suggestions about improving the AC bonus from shields, but I've seen different amounts suggested.  How about something like:
 - Buckler: +1 AC (total)
 - Light Shield: +2 AC
 - Medium Shield: +3 AC

Now, what about tower shields?  Those things have always sucked, espescially with the attack penalty.  Currently, you can take total cover, but you lose all attacks and you can still be targeted by spells.  I'm wondering how we can make this thing worth while without going nuts.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Elennsar

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Re: D&D Equipment [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #124 on: September 29, 2008, 10:02:09 PM »
I stand by +1/+2/+4 (Buckler/light/heavy).

As for tower shields: They are bloody useless. Their only purpose IRL is basically "Barrier." They're not shields, they're semi-portable walls.

So while I wouldn't mind doing something about "can still be targeted by spells", I do not want to make them viable shields...that would be totally absurd.

And not an area the genre has tried to do. Giant swords, yes. Giant shields are for ******.
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

Kuroimaken

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Re: D&D Equipment [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #125 on: September 30, 2008, 04:30:35 AM »
I'm sure I've seen a giant shield used SOMEWHERE. I just can't remember which anime/game...
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


Elennsar

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Re: D&D Equipment [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #126 on: September 30, 2008, 04:36:37 AM »
Here's a note:

http://z.about.com/d/atheism/1/0/q/I/GermanCrusader-l.jpg

This isn't a tower shield. A tower shield is one of the "pavise"s that crossbowmen used. You get total cover because it covers all of you.

I can't speak for anime, but if you're representing anything actually used (however distorted from it), you're not getting much beyond that fellow's.

It's just not practical (however badass you are.).
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Equipment [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #127 on: September 30, 2008, 10:03:21 AM »
I guess I'm fine with leaving tower shields as-is, and allowing them to grant you full cover in lieu of all your attacks.  No one uses them anyway in game.  It seems more useful on the battle field than in a dungeon anyway.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Elennsar

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Re: D&D Equipment [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #128 on: September 30, 2008, 05:39:32 PM »
It is. As stated, they're semi-portable walls. The less they're thought of as "Big shields", the better.
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

veekie

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Re: D&D Equipment [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #129 on: September 30, 2008, 06:19:04 PM »
Wonder if we can at least make them more useful, only I've been thinking for a bit and besides using one to hold off a breath attack, can't think of any good use for an adventurer. They should have SOME use...
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Kuroimaken

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Re: D&D Equipment [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #130 on: September 30, 2008, 06:33:14 PM »
They should be fairly effective against, say, ranged attacks (even some "extraordinary projectiles". I can totally see a fighter holding up a shield so a boulder rolls over his head, for example...
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


Elennsar

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Re: D&D Equipment [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #131 on: September 30, 2008, 06:41:53 PM »
I agree. Just because they're impractical as shields doesn't mean the amount of cover they provide should be ineffective.

It's just that "Cover, total if you hide underneath it" isn't very useful for most adventuring situations.

Of course, that does mean one thing. Assuming the shield can endure the attack, you should be able to intercept any shield (including these) in the way of an attack and let it chew up the shield instead of chewing up you.
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

Kuroimaken

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Re: D&D Equipment [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #132 on: September 30, 2008, 07:00:24 PM »
Well, as is, shields are supposed to be put into harm's way at any rate. Whenever I think tower shield, I think phalanx turtle formations with tons of people holding shields above, in front and to the side of the formation to keep themselves from getting peppered with arrows.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


Elennsar

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Re: D&D Equipment [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #133 on: September 30, 2008, 07:02:03 PM »
In D&D terms, those kind of shields are large shields.

As stated, a tower shield is a pavise...it's something you hide behind while reloading a crossbow, and that sort of thing.

I could nitpick on how the phalanx is a different formation (if similarly close packed), but I won't.

 :P
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Equipment [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #134 on: October 01, 2008, 10:26:43 AM »
I think I'm fine with leaving tower shields as a tactical option that will seldom be excersised.  Should it provied "full cover"?  Should it block line of effect?

Other than that, do we want to beef up any exotic weapons?  Obviously, certain weapons like the spiked chain are worth the feat because of some of their special qualities.  Other weapons like the bastard sword, dwarven war axe, and maul really only represent a one-point of damage on average increase from their martial equivalents.  Should we beef things like them up?  Should we leave them as-is, where people use them in a few benificial circumstances?
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Elennsar

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Re: D&D Equipment [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #135 on: October 01, 2008, 10:31:11 AM »
I would beef them up. But I'm not sure how. If you beef up a bastard sword to 1d10+1, that might be too much.

...damned if I know. My head is hurting from another discussion (totally unrelated to anything here), or I'd be able to come up with something. But they do need to be made worthwhile.
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Equipment [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #136 on: October 01, 2008, 10:58:21 AM »
I would beef them up. But I'm not sure how. If you beef up a bastard sword to 1d10+1, that might be too much.
I'd avoid adding a static number to a weapon's base damage.  That mechanic seemed to disapear in 2E, and it would also have an odd effect when you crit.

Still, on average, 1d10+1 is the same as 1d12.  I had conisidered beefing the bastard sword up to 2d6, and the war axe and maul to 1d12.  Effectively, you're adding two damage on average for a feat.  This might be worth while.  Let me think about it, and maybe I'll write up a new table of these to consider in bulk.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Elennsar

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Re: D&D Equipment [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #137 on: October 01, 2008, 10:59:52 AM »
The main problem is that 2d6 is a nice reliable bell curve 7, and a 1d12 is an extremely irritating not (also true for the greatsword vs. the greataxe)

I'm not sure if this is worth changing or not, but it is not well balanced.
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Equipment [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #138 on: October 01, 2008, 11:11:38 AM »
Yeah, that's why I prefer 2d6 to 1d12 (that, and the half point increase on average).

Optionally I could make them all 1d12, which would be a more true two-point increase on average.  This seems like a lot, as it mimics Weapon Specialization, without the class-specific prereqs.  This doesn't seem so bad though, as we're strengthening the Weapon Focus/Specialization line of feats.

I guess we need to determine a bench mark of sorts.  What is worth a feat?  What should you get from an exotic weapon if you're going to blow one of your precious feat slots on it?  I feel one point of damage on average is not worth a feat slot.  I don't think two is necessarily overpowered.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Elennsar

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Re: D&D Equipment [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #139 on: October 01, 2008, 11:13:39 AM »
A feat should provide you with a lasting benefit, or one that increases as other bonuses increase, ideally the former.

I'm too mentally battered to define that better at the moment. Time paradoxes for the lose.
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.