Author Topic: D&D Combat & Rules [Rebalancing 3.5]  (Read 56477 times)

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Mister_Sinister

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Re: D&D Combat & Rules [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #60 on: September 12, 2008, 12:04:37 AM »
Robby, melee going too nuts is not the problem here. Seriously.

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Elennsar

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Re: D&D Combat & Rules [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #61 on: September 12, 2008, 12:14:15 AM »
Two-handed fighting is a very good style because A) Two Weapon Fighting has lots of attacks, but they rarely hit and B) Sword-and-board's "board' aspect sucks.

Shields are your friend. BIG time.

+2 to AC for a large shield?
...
No comment. No fucking comment.

Personally, I'd like to make it so that TWF is a "useful in some circumstances", and SAB vs. THF are roughly balanced. TWF in general is something you use because shields or larger weapons becomes too awkward, rather than because its That Damn Awesome.

Not to say it can't be awesome. But as a rule, there's a reason most fighting styles are SAB or THF (including polearms and staffs)
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RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Combat & Rules [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #62 on: September 12, 2008, 12:20:53 AM »
One thing I've seen mentioned in defense of S&B is that it's "unique" aspect (the shield) is so easily replicated by the other types (namely with Improved Buckler Defense and an Animated Shield).  I think we can help keep having its thunder stolen by doing somthing about that.

My idea is to get rid of IBD, and to modify Animated Shields.  I alread posted this version in the Equipment thread:

Animated Shield
My balancing 3.5 compendium
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Bier

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Re: D&D Combat & Rules [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #63 on: September 12, 2008, 01:19:55 PM »
Make it a wondrous item that occupies the shield slot.  Otherwise you get a stacking benefit.  Since miss chances aren't 'aligned' with the shield slot, it'll still be a slotless item that costs double, and worth it for casters since it lets them use a slot they normally wouldn't.

Alternatively, have it require shield proficiency to actually 'set in motion'.

================
THW weapon dmg is most accurately reflected by the weapon itself.  The problem with letting huge amounts of Power Attack dmg accrue to THW is rapidly power attack overcomes the importance of the weapon itself.

THW should: Do higher base dmg then one handed weapons (they do) and let you deliver all your strength in one blow (they do).  It's also the easiest style to teach someone.

4E got this one almost exactly right.  They probably should have made 2hW a little bigger, but since they locked Shield benefits in at +2 AC, +2 Reflex, it's all good.  They also locked wielding non-ThW used in two hands at +1 dmg...also good in their system.  A longsword in two hands shouldn't be as much dmg as a Greatsword in 2 hands.

Consider:  A greatsword in the hands of a Fighter with 18 Str vs a longsword is 2-12 +6 vs 1-8 +4, or 13 vs 8.5.  That's a dmg bonus of +4.5, and it only gets HIGHER as Strength goes up.  At a Str of 30, the difference is now 2-12+15 vs 1-8+10, or +7.5.

+7.5 dmg JUST for changing your weapon style is HUGE.  Giving THW twice as much Power Attack? I'm sorry, but Power Attack favoring THW is what breaks combat styles now.  Let THW get it's extra dmg from strength. There's no reason it deserves up to potentially +20 more dmg, as the current system allows it.  The mundane dmg difference should be reflected by Str and a bigger weapon.

(Besides, it'll also stop all the nonsense about people trying to charge with a lance in two hands for full Str + 2x PA...)

As for 'reality', I would like to point out that Dual Wielding is historically practiced only in dueling situations and in circumstances where armor is not allowed.  All the fancy, schmancy dual wielding moves tend to be irrelevant against a good suit of armor.  If you needed a second weapon, you generally employed your shield...it was big, hit hard, seldom missed, and protected you.  Trying to do the same thing with a main-gauche took considerably more training and skill, and was not something you generally did on a battlefield.  Only the advent of gunpowder weapons that made armor and shields irrelevant actually let TWF evolve into something it was good to know, because against armor the style generally sucked (hence, -2 th).  On a battlefield, the only reason you generally pulled a typical 'off-hand' weapon against someone in armor was when they were already down and you wanted to shove it in their eye slit.

Heck, if we look at our favorite overblown dual wielders, Drizzt and Entreri, note that neither of them actually wear substantial armor, nor do they really ever fight someone with it.
-------

Thus, I am SOLIDLY in the camp of Power Attack being the same for all styles.  Furthermore, so as not to discriminate against THW, I'd restrict the benefits thereof to Primary Hand...this way THW can't complain that SAB Bashers and TWF fricassee machines get 'twice the benefit'  (conversely, you could seperate the benefits into 1/2 per weapon, instead).

Improved Power Attack should go to 3:2, Supreme Power Attack 2:1.  Each 'upgrade' is instantly worth 2-10 pts of dmg, if taken any time after level 4, and that is a SUBSTANTIAL dmg kicker for a feat...and it scales!

(Note: I still like the idea of +1 dmg for every 1 you exceed hitting someone's AC by as the 'power attack' default instead, and increases in TH 'scaling' the dmg by level.)
========

TWF, just have one feat for proficiency to get rid of the penalties, and a second feat to allow all permitted iteratives. 

I'd probably specifically forbid allowing Shield Bashers to get more then one attack with a Shield.  This keeps Shields from a) ever being used as a primary weapon and b) keeps the two weapon advantage to pure weapons and TWF.  Shields were never designed as primary weapons, and shouldn't be allowed to do the full job of secondary weapons (they're the best off hand weapons you can get).  Keep the differences between the styles plain. Remember that even Captain America hits stuff with his fists and feet more then with his shield.

===
The reach advantage of weapons spurring AoO is the big benefit of a bigger weapon.  Greatswords are hard to ply in tight quarters.  Against a trained combatant, you get the whole Jenkin symbology going, where if your first thrust/cut with the Greatsword is parried, you leave yourself totally wide open to infighting.  It's easier to just hand-wave away the benefit at 'partial reach' vs the penalty at 'close quarters' then it is to assign a full benefit.
===

I'll note that if you give AoO/Combat Reflexes away as a free feat, you open the door to using AoO as a mechanic to generate swift/immediate actions.  This is a Good Thing.

Robby, I don't remember seeing anything on how you were going to rebalance armor, wearing Heavy Armor that was actually BETTER then wearing Light armor, all things told.  Did you come to a choice on that?  The 4E version ramped heavy armor all the way up to +13, +1 Dex for a total possible benefit of +14.  Light armor maxed out at +10 (0/+10 dex, +2, +8 Dex IIRC), with each category of armor improving max limits by +1.

1E and 2E did it by simply waiving Dex limits for all armor, leading to absolute AC advantage in heavy armor, but they had considerably more stat limitations, too, which curtailed high dex/high armor stat abuse.

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ZeroSum

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Re: D&D Combat & Rules [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #64 on: September 12, 2008, 01:38:03 PM »
Otherwise you get a stacking benefit.
I think that's the point.  That way people with a shield can benefit from choosing to wield a shield (since otherwise shield use is entirely superseded by animated shields).  Though I guess just removing IBD and Animated Shield would do the same thing.

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The problem with letting huge amounts of Power Attack dmg accrue to THW is rapidly power attack overcomes the importance of the weapon itself.
That's a good thing.  It means that not only do high level fighters hit more often than commoners they're more effective at causing damage with the same weapon.

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Giving THW twice as much Power Attack? I'm sorry, but Power Attack favoring THW is what breaks combat styles now.  Let THW get it's extra dmg from strength.
I thought people already agreed that PA at 1:1 for one and two-handed weapons was a good idea?

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As for 'reality'
Why are we worrying about reality?  I don't think we should every be worrying about reality.

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Furthermore, so as not to discriminate against THW, I'd restrict the benefits thereof to Primary Hand...this way THW can't complain that SAB Bashers and TWF fricassee machines get 'twice the benefit'  (conversely, you could seperate the benefits into 1/2 per weapon, instead).
Shouldn't using two weapons give you a lower chance to hit thus lowering the effectiveness of your extra damage?

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Improved Power Attack should go to 3:2, Supreme Power Attack 2:1.  Each 'upgrade' is instantly worth 2-10 pts of dmg, if taken any time after level 4, and that is a SUBSTANTIAL dmg kicker for a feat...and it scales!
I think we've lost something in the mix -- I think we failed to define goals.  How much extra damage should a feat give you?  How should that extra damage be balanced?  I could have a feat that gives me +100,000 damage but if it only does that 1% of 1% of the time it's only a +10 average increase in damage.

Quote
(Note: I still like the idea of +1 dmg for every 1 you exceed hitting someone's AC by as the 'power attack' default instead, and increases in TH 'scaling' the dmg by level.)
(Note: I don't think anyone else did and pressing it isn't furthering the debate anywhere.)

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TWF, just have one feat for proficiency to get rid of the penalties, and a second feat to allow all permitted iteratives.
Sounds reasonable, but it requires that each TWF attack does damage equal to one half the damage of (THF plus two feats) to be balanced against THF.  And we'd also have to manage the cost of purchasing more weapons that TWF has to deal with.

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I'd probably specifically forbid allowing Shield Bashers to get more then one attack with a Shield. ... Shields were never designed as primary weapons, and shouldn't be allowed to do the full job of secondary weapons (they're the best off hand weapons you can get).
Why?  Again, ignore reality -- reality isn't fun.

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This keeps Shields from a) ever being used as a primary weapon and b) keeps the two weapon advantage to pure weapons and TWF.  Keep the differences between the styles plain. Remember that even Captain America hits stuff with his fists and feet more then with his shield.
So reduce the damage shields can bash for, reduce the cost of using a shield for defense, increase the benefits of using a shield for only defense.  But why shouldn't an uberbasher exist if there's an uberslasher?

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The reach advantage of weapons spurring AoO is the big benefit of a bigger weapon.  Greatswords are hard to ply in tight quarters.  Against a trained combatant, you get the whole Jenkin symbology going, where if your first thrust/cut with the Greatsword is parried, you leave yourself totally wide open to infighting.  It's easier to just hand-wave away the benefit at 'partial reach' vs the penalty at 'close quarters' then it is to assign a full benefit.
I have to agree that I think the reach-vs-close quarters dichotomy of 3.5 is a good one.  Maybe allow reach weapons to attack without reach at a -2 at all times and it pares it down some.

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Robby, I don't remember seeing anything on how you were going to rebalance armor, wearing Heavy Armor that was actually BETTER then wearing Light armor, all things told.  Did you come to a choice on that?  The 4E version ramped heavy armor all the way up to +13, +1 Dex for a total possible benefit of +14.  Light armor maxed out at +10 (0/+10 dex, +2, +8 Dex IIRC), with each category of armor improving max limits by +1.
There's an equipment thread though I don't know how much work has been done in there.

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1E and 2E did it by simply waiving Dex limits for all armor, leading to absolute AC advantage in heavy armor, but they had considerably more stat limitations, too, which curtailed high dex/high armor stat abuse.
In the equipment thread I believe they're floating the idea that Heavy Armor should reduce the damage taken per hit while light armor should reduce the number of hits taken.

Mister_Sinister

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Re: D&D Combat & Rules [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #65 on: September 12, 2008, 01:45:29 PM »
ZeroSum, which virginity do you want?

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ZeroSum

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Re: D&D Combat & Rules [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #66 on: September 12, 2008, 01:46:35 PM »
ZeroSum, which virginity do you want?
Nasal.

Mister_Sinister

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Re: D&D Combat & Rules [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #67 on: September 12, 2008, 01:50:34 PM »
Fu for that, sir, I give credit where it is due.

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Elennsar

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Re: D&D Combat & Rules [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #68 on: September 12, 2008, 01:59:09 PM »
Now, I speak as a historian here, but "reality isn't fun"?! Uh-uh.

If you want to pull up with Cuchulain and his kind did as feats (or class abilities), I'd be the third to agree. But shields should work as effectively as in our world, etc, etc. unless we are specifically going for something else, in which case we should hyperfocus on all the reasons why X (say, THF) rocks and the others don't.

My philosophy for cinematic as a good idea to include is in my sig.

If its done in a way that's cool and sexy, and more or less believable, that's one thing. "This. IS. FANTASY!" is somewhere around "hey magic isn't real so we shouldn't use it" stupid. Maybe worse.

If you can't make your equivlant of Jet Li sexy, you're missing all the good reasons to have Jet Li style moves in a game and making it a "I'm compensating for something" game.

As for nasal virginity...that was fu-worthy. Not worth more than 1 point of fu, but that was too funny to not get fu.

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ZeroSum

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Re: D&D Combat & Rules [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #69 on: September 12, 2008, 02:13:25 PM »
Reality was that handfighting was king until someone picked up a rock.  Rocks were the best weapon you could get until someone made a blade.  Blades were pretty good until the spear came along.  Spears were defeated by bows.  Bows by guns.  Guns by bombs.  In a world where strictly better wins the choice is the best or death.

I mean, sure, there was some rock-paper-scissors of cavalry-spearmen-infantry, but only because infantry and spearmen were cheap compared to cavalry.  Would you rather have been the guy on horseback or the guy at the front of the charging Roman Legion?

This is balance:
TWF, THF and SAB need to give results that are equivalent in the long run but take a different path.  So if we plot a 3D graph with axes of damage, hit count and survivability and place SAB at unit distance from the origin, THF and TWF need to also be at unit distance.  They just need to be somewhere else from SAB.

In 3.5.current, THF is really high on damage and accuracy because of Uberchargers.  TWF sits much lower on damage but a little higher on hit count.  SAB sits far lower on damage and hit count but only higher on survivability by some epsilon.  Hence why THF >= TWF > SAB in 3.5.current.

In 3.5.balanced we need to pull back THF and TWF towards the origin, probably by reducing average damage, and push SAB farther up the survivability scale.

The result would be that Bier can play his optimized Shield and Longsword Knight in Shining Armor, Elennsar can make Jet Li rape people with nothing more than his two fists and whatever object happens to be around him, and Mister_Sinister can charge into battle with a 20-lb. greatsword and none of them need to outshine each other.

Elennsar

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Re: D&D Combat & Rules [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #70 on: September 12, 2008, 02:19:53 PM »
::chuckles.:: I'm using Jet Li as an example purely of "this guy did (does?) cool stuff.", not what I'd want to play.

As a play style, I'm a heavy/medium armor and shield-longsword (or greatsword...eight pounds, not twenty, IRL, and making them heavier is pointless for the game.) fellow.

The main thing is that there are reasons why THF is a good idea, reasons why SAB is a good idea, reasons why TWF is a good idea, and reasons why Polearms (and staffs) are a good idea.

What we need is to ensure all get their just dues, not that they're all perfectly even and its purely a taste issue. That's not why the different styles were used. They were used because there are pro's and con's to each and in a given situation, one picked what worked best...for instance, in Japan, without shields, two-handed katana is a very good idea.
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ZeroSum

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Re: D&D Combat & Rules [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #71 on: September 12, 2008, 02:26:43 PM »
Yeah, I just picked the last three names I remembered and keyed them all to a stereotype, wasn't really trying to pin you down there.

I think we're working off moderately different assumptions here and I'll try to state what your base assumption is:
Most skills should be highly circumstantial because that's how it works in real life.

My assumption is:
Most skills should be marginally circumstantial because that allows a larger scope of player choice.

(I'm going over the same thing with you in another thread it seems.)  So from your assumption you see the necessity for a very heavy game of rock-paper-scissors and I appreciate that.  However, I don't think D&D campaigns should restrict it so that 80% of your enemies are rocks because that would make the obvious choice paper.

That's why I'm trying to attain the 50-50 case where the rock-paper-scissors is reduced so that rather than rock beating scissors 80% of the time it only beats it, say, 60% of the time and players should be able to push that towards (or above) 80% by making good play choices.

You can change your play choices on the fly and making good play choices should be highly rewarded.  You can't, however, change your creation choices on the fly so making bad creation choices should be minorly punished.

Elennsar

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Re: D&D Combat & Rules [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #72 on: September 12, 2008, 02:42:59 PM »
Ja, just noting.

And yes, you are, these subjects relate both to equipment and to combat.

Here's my feelings. There's a reason why 90% (made up on the spot, but it is a very high percentage) of knights (as in the social class) use SAB. With the things knights do, SAB is very likely to be the best way to do it. THF is also good but only if you have good enough armor (or good enough defensive skills) to compensate for having no shield. THF is ineffective.

And I'm not in favor of making "bad creation choices" harshly punished per se. But if you want to play a Dede (to use the phrase from the other thread) in a campaign where being tough and good at dealing lots of damage is vital, you're playing one in the wrong campaign to take advantage of their strengths...and the DM should point that out to you. On the other hand, playing a Kisa in the jungle shoudl be a very bad idea, and the DM should point that out to you.

All approaches have their strengths and weaknesses. Some unfortunately are more capable of being used against "general adventuring situations" and some require situations that are a little (and sometimes, a lot) more focused.

But all should be viable within the situation they prosper in. THF and SAB both propser in the same environment. So they should wind up as balanced next to each other. TWF generally flourishes elsewhere, and unarmed is a mystery (since IRL, striking people with fists and feet is massively overrated...so its kind of hard to determine what is plausible for "this isn't real life". If we were doing a martial arts campaign it would be easier, but we're not..at least, not as general D&D)
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ZeroSum

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Re: D&D Combat & Rules [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #73 on: September 12, 2008, 03:28:14 PM »
I think that in the "average" (for however we want to define as average) campaign everything should be equally viable.  Certainly in certain individual adventures of that campaign different aspects should outshine others, but if a DM says, "Make a character!" and gives you nothing else you should fare no better or worse depending on your uninformed choice of SAB vs. THF vs. TWF.

This is because the goal of D&D is to have fun and some think SAB is fun and others think TWF is fun and the general case should allow both of those to prosper.

I think this might get into D&D GM-ology as well in that your DM shouldn't see your Kisa and say, "Now you all get onto a boat.  A small boat.  With a lot of things to climb on.  In the middle of the ocean.  For the next 23 adventures."  But the system also needs to support DMs that don't know what they're doing and minimizing creation choices is one way I see of doing that.

Elennsar

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Re: D&D Combat & Rules [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #74 on: September 12, 2008, 03:40:59 PM »
Agreed to a point. The unpleasant reality of the different approaches (Kisa, dede, archer, whatever) is that they have a balance of strengths and weaknesses...sometimes one is an extremely good idea and one is not.

I think we should work on make sure they're all viable and able to function (as opposed to one being overwhelmingly superior), but not try and make it so they're necessarily able to do the same things well.

A DM who cannot answer "Will it be a bad idea to focus on heavy armor and so on? Will we be doing a lot of stuff at sea?" (assuming the DM is determing things) is a bad DM.

SAB/THF/TWF all have their strengths and weaknesses. Make it so that each has appealing strengths and we're a long way towards making good stuff.
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ZeroSum

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Re: D&D Combat & Rules [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #75 on: September 12, 2008, 03:49:37 PM »
A DM who cannot answer "Will it be a bad idea to focus on heavy armor and so on? Will we be doing a lot of stuff at sea?" (assuming the DM is determing things) is a bad DM.
I say a system that has a fairly definitive answer to either of those questions is a bad system.  Bad DMs exist.  Their players need to still be able to play though.  For the first question especially it may very likely be that a DM doesn't know because he doesn't know where the characters want to go.  Same for the second question, but less so.  Then again, maybe the DM just doesn't know what he plans to run.  Maybe he's a very good off-the-cuff DM?

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SAB/THF/TWF all have their strengths and weaknesses. Make it so that each has appealing strengths and we're a long way towards making good stuff.
+1 bajizilooglion.

Elennsar

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Re: D&D Combat & Rules [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #76 on: September 12, 2008, 03:53:30 PM »
What I mean is, the DM should be able to say "Well, I'm thinking that you'll be in an area like the Carribean in our world." at the start of the game.

Any DM not able to provide at least an idea of what kind of things will happen should be stripped of DMhood.


And thanks. I was afraid we'd have a long and irritating arguement on balancing them so they're -the same-, just "different", rather than making them all cool (if not always equally effective, since say mindless undead don't really care if you're really sexy with feints).

Good! The Emperor has shown us the path to wisdom, now let us walk it!
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"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

ZeroSum

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Re: D&D Combat & Rules [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #77 on: September 12, 2008, 04:11:21 PM »
I understand what you're saying -- that a DM should be a good DM -- but we have to also consider bad DMs because they exist and their players will want to be able to have fun.

One of the biggest causes for argument is when two people have really close ideas but they're just out of sync enough that they clash horribly.  I think we're close to that point but if we both continue to make sure we understand each other I think it'll be productive in the end.

Basic premise:  The three major melee archetypes should be equally capable in 80% of cases.  In any subset of that 80% space the difference in effectiveness should be majorly due to player differences rather than character differences.  In effect 80% of the time they should be within 20% of each other.

In the remaining 20% of the time, however, they should be within 80% effectiveness of each other.

So let's say that one-on-one battle with an Ogre is a 20% case:
The Kisa should be able to take down that Ogre with, say, 80% effectiveness -- he expends 20% of his resources.  A Dede would need to expend 80% more resources -- 36% total.

How might this happen?  Well, the Kisa, having good armor and a shield is capable of shrugging off most of the attacks.  Any attacks that deal damage deal little damage.  His massive damage output, and high hit chance, however, is quite capable of defeating the Ogre's impressive armor and getting through his damage reduction decisively and frequently.  This means he takes a few hits and beats back the Ogre relatively quickly.

The Dede, on the other hand, can scratch the Ogre often but it's obvious he's going to need longer to finally slay it.  When he gets hit, though, he loses a lot of time because he has to withdraw from combat and expend an out-of-combat resource, a healing potion, in order to get back to the fray and finally take down the Ogre.  Not only has the Dede taken more damage but he had to spend money on the potion and it took longer to get past the Ogre (which may matter).

I think that's a good balance point for a 20% case -- both were capable, which they should be, moderate level fighters in a melee battle after all, but the Kisa did much better because he was stat'd out to take out the Ogre.

Now let's look for a 20% case on the other side:
What if Dedes were more capable of dealing with mooks, especially when terrain factors into tactics?  Facing up against a small horde of Kobolds, the Dede has more attacks of opportunity to spend against them than the Kisa.  With acrobatic skill and mobility he can find his way to higher ground over the Kobolds and take them as they close the distance, since being on uneven terrain means Dede's balance skill is useful.  He was able to take a few small hits from them but got away with minor scratches because he could take out a few of them each round due to higher attacks.

The Kisa, however, has a problem.  The Kobolds surround him.  He could cut one down and try to move away but they're fast enough that they'd just catch up to him and continue the swarm.  Though they don't hit much there's many of them and he can only kill one or two each round and when he does he overkills them.  Though he deals enough damage to kill two with one swing it's more than necessary.  Because the battle lasted longer before the Kobolds retreated he was, over time, taking more damage than the Dede, losing a third or more of his hitpoints versus the Dede's meager loss.

How's that sound for a 20% case the other way?

As for an average case, a handful of Orcs.  Enough enemies and slow enough that the Dede can use his mobility to flank for bonuses but few enough that the Kisa can still deal with it.  Depending on specifics maybe the Kisa was 10% more effective on paper but that difference is easily made up for by smarter play by the Kisa.

That's the kind of system I'd like to see.

Elennsar

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Re: D&D Combat & Rules [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #78 on: September 12, 2008, 04:18:53 PM »
Then their players need to find a new DM. I don't know about in your experience, I know in mine that the person DM was the person the players were okay with.

Still, acknowledged. And agreed on making sure we're not out of sync. Even if we agree on things, we're not looking this the same way, and that may cause tangles. So...

General combat: Yesssss...though I think "ineffective versus armor" will bite Dedes and their kin harder, that's okay by me beyond just bias. If you want to play a Dede, part of doing well as one will be being clever rather than trying to face things as "I can just hack at it". Playing to the strengths of your style.

Ogre example: Ja, pretty much. Its not that a Dede -can't- kill an ogre, its that their talents are in other fields than what kills ogres.

As to kobolds: I think both would have an advantage. The Kisa could wade into them. The Dede would be able to take advantage of rotten terrain (which the kisa has a problem with, though not an overly severe one) and kill them off like that. So the Dede has an edge here, if not -quite- as "I am tailored to do this" as the Kisa has vs. an ogre...the Dede can apply this vs. nonmooks, too. A skilled Dede is a frustratingly hard opponent to fight if you don't have the hide (or armor) to shrug him off entirely, particularly in bad terrain. I like.

So the Dede is probably going to be weaker in terms of pure "deal and survive' damage, but if well played in the right spot, he'll be able to exploit his strengths to counter this. That's my take. Are we looking at this about the same?

As to orcs: Yeah, both should be able to do this if they play to their strengths. The Dede will have to be a little more cautious and calculating, but his "hard to hit" may become a bit more advantageous (depending on the individual Dede and the individual Kisa) than the Kisa's "I can wade in and stomp"

Ultimately, Kisa is a "safe" standard, with no less potential for BIG success, Dede is a bit riskier but can pay off if you do it right. That's how I'd set them up.
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ZeroSum

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Re: D&D Combat & Rules [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #79 on: September 12, 2008, 07:39:28 PM »
Okay, so here's a suggestion:
1.  Fighters have plenty of feats in general so that they can easily choose their track.
2.  Give fighters only Medium Armor, not Heavy, by default.  (No one gets Heavy armor.)
3.  Give enough Dede-type feats that it's useful to buy them in order to, for example, gain +x to hit and damage (where x is some non-trivial bonus worth more than heavy armor -- maybe tie it to skill points in a skill appropriate for the terrain, say, twice the ranks in the skill) to something in (a subset of) favorable terrains.  So maybe balance helps you in loose or slippery footing, climb in craggy rock outcroppings, swim in fighting in the water, etc.  That way at level 5 I can spend a feat to get +4 in a certain terrain.  At level 10 that becomes +6, at 15 it's +9, and at 20 it's +11.

That way the fighter can choose -- Do I increase my raw armor ability that'll be useful 80% of the time or do I increase my terrain bonus much more but that'll only be useful 20% of the time?

I think choices like that should be unbalanced towards making the 20% case more powerful to reflect the power of specialization.