D&D Combat & Rules [Rebalancing 3.5]

[veekie]

At least it would give a viable reason to ever think about using TT.

Obviously lowering TT's level or changing the whole "You lose spellcasting abilities" to "You can only cast certain spells" and then determining the limits applied would change it from crap to decent emergency buff. Alternatively, making it a targeted spell that you can affect anyone with would allow you to turn it into a solid party buff spell (the Rogue would love temporary Full BAB at no drawback).

I'm with this myself. As is, the Transformation can hardly go to anyone worse than it's own caster anyway, in both senses of the word.

[Midnight_v]

Its just a huge structural change is all...
I'll have to admit it though, when I look at something like that, something that affects what I'd consider the "core chasis" of the game, I step back a little bit and say... how different is this from 3.5.
Are we rebalancing or making a whole new system.
How much stuff is connected to those changes. Those are the types of changes that I'm most uncomforable with. Not like spells and feats but things like Iteratives, and vancian casting, or things like changing the AoO system, 5ft steps... Thats big. I actually dont' know how big but I look at that at think... it restructres the whole of the game, a priori.
Not to say its inherently bad its just... theres somethings to consider.
I'm not opposed to a further illustration of how it would work as a whole.

[Sinfire Titan]

One thing that would help us out is to look at what changed from 3.0 to 3.5 to Pathfinder to 4E. Identifying those changes will help determine what was a good idea and what was a horrible idea. Oh, and looking into Frank and Keith's Tomes would provide great resources.

Someone get a hold of Sunic and PR. Ask them to gather information from the Paizo boards regarding the major differences between Pathfinder and 3.5. Once we have that list, we can start sifting through and "borrow" good ideas (if Jason had any) while IDing bad ones (most of the changes they did make).

[Soda]

In my opinion, there shouldn't be any rules changes. Someone who picks this up and knows 3.5 should use exactly the same rules as he's used to.
There should just be more balanced classes, feats, and spells replacing the core ones. As if Wizards released a new book, except this book replaces all of core.

[Sinfire Titan]

In my opinion, there shouldn't be any rules changes. Someone who picks this up and knows 3.5 should use exactly the same rules as he's used to.
There should just be more balanced classes, feats, and spells replacing the core ones. As if Wizards released a new book, except this book replaces all of core.

The major problem there is that spells are broken almost by default.

[Midnight_v]

In my opinion, there shouldn't be any rules changes. Someone who picks this up and knows 3.5 should use exactly the same rules as he's used to.
There should just be more balanced classes, feats, and spells replacing the core ones. As if Wizards released a new book, except this book replaces all of core.

I agree with you, on someone picking up and using the same rules. . .

The major problem there is that spells are broken almost by default. 

This is probbably true as well. The only thing that I have a problem with is us coming up with a unified definition of "broken" but I get the idea. My question is. What is the appropriate power level then? I hear a lot of talk about level appropriate abilities. I look at the MM and see what the critters are doing. . . then I hear people say X spell is broken.  Okay, but the mosters can often be broken also in that case. Swarms/Slime/Undead/constructs... outsiders... DRAGONS, O' my? You gotta think its pve when you think about it and acknoledge that some spells need to be strong and that the melee-ists have to be able to deal with... things on thier own.
Wow. I can't tell you how glad I am to be working on this again.

[veekie]

In my opinion, there shouldn't be any rules changes. Someone who picks this up and knows 3.5 should use exactly the same rules as he's used to.
There should just be more balanced classes, feats, and spells replacing the core ones. As if Wizards released a new book, except this book replaces all of core.

You still either need to nuke spells almost entirely wholesale, or create abilities for the other classes, comparable in flexibility. The magic system as it is now is capable of literally anything any class can do, one way or another.

Way it winds up is you need a change on a fundamental level(to give good options), and people never like it when they lose access to powers.

[Soda]

I think magic is salvageable, since a lot of overpowered stuff is in core (hence we can nerf it), and we can control how and when the classes gain access to them. For example, everyone can agree the sorcerer is less powerful than the wizard solely because of how it gains spells.

Coupled with significantly improving the melee classes, giving them serious options instead of junk, I think we can bring the core base classes pretty close together in terms of power.

[veekie]

Yep, the latter aspect is the 'big' change. It's as big as nuking spells, honestly, because non magical characters currently are effectively only good at their one trick, unless they have access to spell effects in some manner(see UMD)

[Midnight_v]

Coupled with significantly improving the melee classes, giving them serious options instead of junk, I think we can bring the core base classes pretty close together in terms of power

This.
If you nuke spells people will rebel.
If you give i'm going to say it. "The fighters" (a generic term mind you) the ability to leap 50ft or whatever many get real bitch about it. Mad cause the fighter is doing magical things... I saw it on wizards.
Which is sad cause its really needed really

giving them serious options instead of junk   

now we should really get on the same page about what is meant by this really.
A fighter by definition fights.
A wizard by definition affects reality
... one job is inherently better than the other.
For that fighter to role with that guy he has to be so good that fighting allows him to ignore the constraints of reality.
discuss?

[veekie]

For that fighter to role with that guy he has to be so good that fighting allows him to ignore the constraints of reality.

Allow this at higher levels, it's the only way really.

[SixthDeclension]

I completely agree that melee classes have to have abilities that almost replicate spells in order to compete at all, even when spells have been nerfed. I.e. give the rogue a greater invisibility like effect x rounds/encounter that scales with level, give a fighter an enlarge self like ability.

[Midnight_v]

For that fighter to role with that guy he has to be so good that fighting allows him to ignore the constraints of reality.

Allow this at higher levels, it's the only way really.

Fair enough, but if at level 8, if my partner casts "Evards tentcles of hentai " I should be able to do something ...
parallel.
... and yes... Things like evards should be allowed to exist. . .

If a black pudding showes up at level 7 I dont' want to have everybody look to the wizard and/cleric and be like...
"Well...? What now?" and not have any answers.

Alternatively, there have to be threats/questions that wizards clerics CAN'T answer. Magic immune things, a counterspelling critter or two.
 Change golems to instead of being magic immune, to auto counter any spell effect within a certain range or something.
 Things that you HAVE to fight... so there an acutal reason to have a fighter(uhmm... warrior type) in the party as opposed to just another caster. . .

Still though I reiterate... what does this actually mean?

giving them serious options instead of junk  

I hear people saying this but what are teh types of things you mean by serious options?


Edit:

I completely agree that melee classes have to have abilities that almost replicate spells in order to compete at all, even when spells have been nerfed. I.e. give the rogue a greater invisibility like effect x rounds/encounter that scales with level, give a fighter an enlarge self like ability.

No.. the ninja get the invis, thing.
Hide in plain sight should cover that and better.

I think that there will be a total refusal if you let the fighter do magical things.
If you can find a way to let the fighter do magical things in a no magical way then cool.

Not how we gave the fighter "surprise lunge" that is much much better.
Don't actually ever make the fighter large but increase his treatened area and things that match the restitance that large gets you and your there.
Otherwise you get a rebellion from tradtionalists.

[Soda]

I don't have a lot of ideas, I just want to see some actually useful class features. For example, rangers get camouflage at level 13. What good is that? Wizards have already been invisible for TEN LEVELS.

Again, I don't know what to do. But almost every mundane class feature is crap, while caster class features (spells) are great. Even casters' actual class features (familiar and turn undead) are better than anything mundanes get.

And I don't want to "nuke" casters. They are the nukes. I want to reduce them to small bombs, because, after all, fighters are just swords.
One thing I can think of, 9th level spells shouldn't come into play until 19-20th level. Because when wizards get time stop/gate/genesis/shapechange, you know what rangers get? Hide in plain sight. Yeah.

Frankly, I want Tome of Battle. I'm just not sure how to make ToB without it being ToB.

[Sinfire Titan]

The problem with class features like Camouflage, Tongue of Sun and Moon, and other abilities like it is that they are nothing more than filler. Every ability like those two should be an option outside of the Feats and Class features (the main reason I like Skill Tricks is because it gives us a mechanical method of putting those abilities in the game while not taking up too much space). Camouflage should be a Hide skill trick, and the Rager's 13th level class feature could be bonus skill tricks instead (leaving the choice of which up to the player, allowing the class some flexibility and customization beyond the normal limits). Tongue of Sun and Moon could be a Truespeech skill trick (if we retain that skill) or a Diplomacy trick (could make sense here if we require the ability to speak 3 languages).

Feats that offer this kind of "mechanical fluff" should be scrapped for another ability, or subsumed into another ability entirely.

[lans]

Would a changing touch attacks so that they don't work with power attack be reasonable?

[RobbyPants]

I guess that depends on the nature of the attack.

I can see a ghost not being able to power attack, but it seems reasonable to allow it with something like Deep Impact.