D&D Spells [Rebalancing 3.5]

[bihlbo]

Right, you wasted a full round already, no sense kicking them in the nuts with the spell slot loss while they're at it.

And this is really the whole problem with the counterspelling mechanic too. I'll look more into this later.

[RobbyPants]

There was another spell I wanted to look at: Mordenkainen's Disjunction.

From everything I've seen and heard, there always seems to be this gentleman't agreement not to use it.  DM's using it on players tend to piss them off because they destroy their precious items.  Players loath using it because it destroys phat lewts.

How about simply modifying it to surpress all magical properties for some amount of time (I'm thinking either one hour or one day per caster level).  During this time, the items cannot be restored except through a Wish or Miracle.

It seems like this would still be a uesful debuff, but it wouldn't have the same permanent remifications of you getting screwed on the WBL tables.  Thoughts?

[veekie]

Well, I figure what we end up deciding on the Sunder matter will decide how this ends up. So, that first.

[RobbyPants]

Well, they're semi-related, but the sunder post was more about how to restore a broken magical item.  That wouldn't apply here, as the item is still in one piece, but the magic is surpressed for a while.

[veekie]

Well, I figure, if the sunder rules are applied to disjoined magic items as well(which, if you take the spell name literally, just means the spell itself was taken apart, leaving the magic still in, someone disconnected all the cables, but your equipment's still there), and with easier repair, that's it then.

That said, the destroy artifacts feature of disjunction should be reversible as well.

[Chemus]

That said, the destroy artifacts feature of disjunction should be reversible as well.

Do Artifacts have specific crafting rules? If not, this should remain nebulous, IMO, since it's the realm of campaign specific 'fluff'.

[veekie]

Because Artifacts are supposed to be nigh impossible to destroy, I'd rather have MDJ disable an artifact for a while than destroy it for good.

[RobbyPants]

Because Artifacts are supposed to be nigh impossible to destroy, I'd rather have MDJ disable an artifact for a while than destroy it for good.

Well, that's all I wanted Disjunction to do: surpress all magical properties for either an hour or a day per caster level.  It won't ever destroy the artifact.

[veekie]

Do days then, it's a 9th level spell, at least let it count for something.

[Pteryx]

While I think you're on the right track generally with Alter Self, the current implementation seems a bit overly strict and fiddly for my tastes.  To make it easier to use, I'd say make all three aspects cap at 18th level; I don't think that extra +1 natural armor or +10 speed is going to be so earth-shattering by then.  (If you still balk, cap them all at 15th instead.)  Also, I have serious doubts that the racial bonuses to skills are as broken as you make them out to be, given some of the skill bonuses one can get from 1st-level spells or even simply choices of LA+0 race; as such, I'd increase the cap to +2 per 3 levels (it's not as though racial bonuses come in odd numbers anyway).  It's not as though the full benefit of being aquatic is going to be game-breaking by 12th level anyway.

Finally, the "no flying until 5th" rule seems artificially arbitrary (though I understand why 5th) and doesn't stop Alter Self from being often better than other spells that can grant flight.  Restrictions on flying are certainly called for and are old, though:

If the form selected has wings, the wizard can actually fly, but at only one-third the speed of a true creature of that type, and with a loss of two maneuverability classes (to a minimum of E).

(E was the equivalent of clumsy.)

If the form selected has wings, you can fly at a speed of 30 feet with poor maneuverability...

3.5 seems to have taken a total 180 on how well Alter Self should let you fly.  Perhaps take a cue from 2nd and have a flying form only fly at half the speed it normally would, rounded down, and lose a maneuverability class or two?

I note that both had a clause saying that a gilled form could breathe underwater, but whether that holds in 3.5e is unclear.  -- Pteryx

[Sinfire Titan]

An idea on the Save or Die spells: Turn them into the Channeled X spells (like Channeled Fireburst from the PH2). Have their 2 full round casting effect be the Save or Die (only make it useful if they pass the save), and have the lesser effects be minor debuffs.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

There was another spell I wanted to look at: Mordenkainen's Disjunction.

From everything I've seen and heard, there always seems to be this gentleman't agreement not to use it.  DM's using it on players tend to piss them off because they destroy their precious items.  Players loath using it because it destroys phat lewts.

How about simply modifying it to surpress all magical properties for some amount of time (I'm thinking either one hour or one day per caster level).  During this time, the items cannot be restored except through a Wish or Miracle.

It seems like this would still be a uesful debuff, but it wouldn't have the same permanent remifications of you getting screwed on the WBL tables.  Thoughts?

That's only half of it.

The other half is rolling through all your items, making saves (oh, and looking up the item save rules, which you haven't seen since the last time a disjunction got pulled out three campaigns ago).  Then recalculating everyone's character sheets with cascading consequences.  If you're extremely efficient, it could be as short as a fun five-minute activity. 

Making it more of a targeted AMF might help... but we already have antimagic ray for that.

[RobbyPants]

While I think you're on the right track generally with Alter Self, the current implementation seems a bit overly strict and fiddly for my tastes.  To make it easier to use, I'd say make all three aspects cap at 18th level; I don't think that extra +1 natural armor or +10 speed is going to be so earth-shattering by then.  (If you still balk, cap them all at 15th instead.)  Also, I have serious doubts that the racial bonuses to skills are as broken as you make them out to be, given some of the skill bonuses one can get from 1st-level spells or even simply choices of LA+0 race; as such, I'd increase the cap to +2 per 3 levels (it's not as though racial bonuses come in odd numbers anyway).  It's not as though the full benefit of being aquatic is going to be game-breaking by 12th level anyway.

The only reason I picked 15th level is because that's the cap on Polymorph, and Alter Self is a lower level spell.  I agree that an extra boost at 18th level wouldn't break anything.

As for the skills, I could possibly relax the bonus a bit.  I was trying to avoid making skills super boostable, but there are still a lot of other ways to do this that I have not yet addressed.

Finally, the "no flying until 5th" rule seems artificially arbitrary (though I understand why 5th) and doesn't stop Alter Self from being often better than other spells that can grant flight.  Restrictions on flying are certainly called for and are old, though:

The 5th level restriction is semi-arbitrary.  I'm really just taking a page from quite a few other sources that restrict it to 5th or 6th level. I'm aware that there are other ways to get flight earlier that are published.  I think this version of Alter Self shows my bias a bit in that I don't have any of those books.

Man, that 2nd edition text really takes me back... 

An idea on the Save or Die spells: Turn them into the Channeled X spells (like Channeled Fireburst from the PH2). Have their 2 full round casting effect be the Save or Die (only make it useful if they pass the save), and have the lesser effects be minor debuffs.

That's an interesting take on it.  It's also an odd coincidence, in that I was reading Channeled Lifttheft earlier this week.

Basically, it seems to be the same as what I've suggested in that an SoD would be a significant action investment, but your suggestion would add some versatility to the spells.  I'm curious to see what others think.

The only reason I'd be inclined to stay with my suggestion is that it doesn't involve re-writing spells, although I'm certainly open to the concept for future spells.

That's only half of it.

The other half is rolling through all your items, making saves (oh, and looking up the item save rules, which you haven't seen since the last time a disjunction got pulled out three campaigns ago).  Then recalculating everyone's character sheets with cascading consequences.  If you're extremely efficient, it could be as short as a fun five-minute activity. 

Making it more of a targeted AMF might help... but we already have antimagic ray for that.

I never really thought about that.  It makes sense in the same way that it's a pain to recalclate stuff after you take 7 Str damage from that giant spider.  Although, it seems a targeted AMF would have the same game-slowing effect.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Well, having stats for situations with absolutely no magic items is something you can prepare for (and, if you anticipating it coming up, make up a sheet for.  Like a druid with wildshape.).  Having a random assortment of trinkets and gewgaws burn out on the spur of the moment isn't.

[RobbyPants]

I gotcha.  Yeah, that does make things run a little more smoothly.

Should the owner of the itmes get a single save to negate the effect perhaps?  This technically increases the randomness in that it's an all-or-nothing outcome hinged on a single die roll, as opposed to several outcomes determined by several rolls.

That way, it still allows for a save, although you use the owner's save (so you don't have to look up the obscure item-save rules), and if it works, all of the items stop working (so you can revert to your second set of pre-calculated stats like you suggested).  Does that seem like a good comprimise?

[veekie]

RE: the Channeled SoD idea, I wish I had thought of it, it's a nice solution around the problem of full round casting for one and them becoming tactically useless(especially for the shorter ranged ones). Debuff/damage on a shorter cast, kills on a 2 round cast seems good.

For Disjunction, why use saves for items at all? Doesn't Dispel Magic's CL check work perfectly fine for items anyway? That is, if it doesn't cost anything but time to fix a disjoined item.

[Sinfire Titan]

RE: the Channeled SoD idea, I wish I had thought of it, it's a nice solution around the problem of full round casting for one and them becoming tactically useless(especially for the shorter ranged ones). Debuff/damage on a shorter cast, kills on a 2 round cast seems good.

For Disjunction, why use saves for items at all? Doesn't Dispel Magic's CL check work perfectly fine for items anyway? That is, if it doesn't cost anything but time to fix a disjoined item.

There's only two spell effects that guarantee a dispel, and those are MDJ and Suppress Magic (Magic of Incarnum). One of those has to be boosted obscenely via Essentia (but can be affected by the Chain Spell metamagic feat, which makes it a 5th level or lower version of MDJ with less PC screwing side effects), and the other one is given. Every other one is a 50% chance unless you A) Boost your CL and B) take Arcane Mastery. And Dispel Magic offers a Will save to negate being suppressed on magic items.

[Soda]

Just presenting the proposed new wizard list for easier reading. These are the spells specialists will get that generalists won't. (except 5 advanced learnings)

[spoiler]
Unbold = appears on general list one level later
Bold = does not appear on general wizard list



Abjuration
   1 Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Shield
   2
   3 Dispel Magic, Explosive Runes, Magic Circle against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law
   4 Fire Trap, Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, Remove Curse, Stoneskin
   5
   6 Greater Dispel Magic, Globe of Invulnerability, Guards and Wards
   7 Spell Turning
   8 Dimensional Lock, Mind Blank, Prismatic Wall
   9


Conjuration
   1 Grease, Summon Monster I
   2 Glitterdust, Summon Monster II, Summon Swarm, Web
   3 Stinking Cloud, Summon Monster III
   4 Black Tentacles, Minor Creation, Secure ShelterFaithful Hound, Major Creation, Lesser Planar Binding, Secret Chest, Summon Monster V, Wall of Stone
   6 Acid Fog, Planar Binding, Summon Monster VI, Wall of Iron
   7 , Summon Monster VII
   8 Maze, Greater Planar Binding, Summon Monster VIII, Trap the Soul
   9 Summon Monster IX, Teleportation Circle


Divination
   1 Detect Secret Doors, Detect Undead, Identify
   2 Detect Thoughts, Locate Object
   3 Arcane Sight, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
   4 Detect Scrying, Locate Creature, Scrying
   5 Contact Other Plane, Telepathic Bond
   6 Analyze Dweomer, Legend Lore
   7 Greater Arcane Sight, Greater Scrying, Vision
   8 Discern Location
   9 Foresight


Enchantment
   1 Hypnotism, Sleep
   2 Hideous Laughter, Touch of Idiocy
   3 Rage, Suggestion
   4 Confusion, Lesser Geas
   5 Dominate Person, Feeblemind, Mind Fog
   6 Geas/Quest, Mass Suggestion
   7 Insanity, Symbol of Stunning
   8 Antipathy, Binding, Irresistible Dance, Symbol of Insanity, Sympathy
   9 Dominate Monster, Power Word Kill

Evocation
   1
   2
   3 Tiny Hut
   4 Resilient Sphere, Wall of Fire, Wall of Ice
   5 Sending, Wall of Force
   6 Contingency
   7 Delayed Blast Fireball, Forcecage
   8 Greater Shout, Sunburst
   9 Meteor Swarm

Illusion
   1 Color Spray, Magic Aura, Ventriloquism
   2 Hypnotic Pattern, Magic Mouth, Mirror Image, Phantom Trap
   3 Displacement, Illusory Script, Invisibility Sphere
   4 Hallucinatory Terrain, Illusory Wall, Phantasmal Killer, Rainbow Pattern, Shadow Conjuration
   5 Mirage Arcana, Seeming, Shadow Evocation
   6 Mislead, Shadow Walk, Veil
   7 Project Image, Greater Shadow Conjuration, Simulacrum
   8 Screen, Greater Shadow Evocation
   9 Shades, Weird


Necromancy
   1 Chill Touch, Ray of Enfeeblement
   2 Command Undead, Ghoul Touch, Spectral Hand
   3 Gentle Repose, Halt Undead, Vampiric Touch
   4 Animate Dead, Enervation
   5 Magic Jar, Symbol of Pain
   6 Circle of Death, Create Undead, Undeath to Death
   7 Control Undead, Symbol of Weakness
   8 Clone, Create Greater Undead, Symbol of Death
   9 Energy Drain, Soul Bind, Wail of the Banshee

Transmutation
   1 Magic Weapon
   2
   3 Flame Arrow, Gaseous Form, Keen Edge, Greater Magic Weapon, Secret Page, Shrink Item, Water Breathing
   4 Polymorph, Stone Shape
   5 Animal Growth, Baleful Polymorph, Fabricate, Transmute Mud to Rock, Transmute Rock to Mud
   6 , Disintegrate,
   7 Ethereal Jaunt, Reverse Gravity, Statue
   8 Iron Body, Polymorph Any Object, Temporal Stasis
   9 Etherealness, Shapechange
[/spoiler]


There are some typos on the front page. Hypnotic Pattern, Resilient Sphere, and Imprisonment are in the wrong schools.

[Chemus]

I have to agree that MDJ should just kill all the magic items in its AoE. I'm perfectly alright with the items being easily repairable, or even for just magic suppression for the duration, but no saves. All items are just gone.

[RobbyPants]

Just presenting the proposed new wizard list for easier reading. These are the spells specialists will get that generalists won't. (except 5 advanced learnings)

[spoiler]
Unbold = appears on general list one level later
Bold = does not appear on general wizard list



Abjuration
   1 Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Shield
   2
   3 Dispel Magic, Explosive Runes, Magic Circle against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law
   4 Fire Trap, Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, Remove Curse, Stoneskin
   5
   6 Greater Dispel Magic, Globe of Invulnerability, Guards and Wards
   7 Spell Turning
   8 Dimensional Lock, Mind Blank, Prismatic Wall
   9


Conjuration
   1 Grease, Summon Monster I
   2 Glitterdust, Summon Monster II, Summon Swarm, Web
   3 Stinking Cloud, Summon Monster III
   4 Black Tentacles, Minor Creation, Secure ShelterFaithful Hound, Major Creation, Lesser Planar Binding, Secret Chest, Summon Monster V, Wall of Stone
   6 Acid Fog, Planar Binding, Summon Monster VI, Wall of Iron
   7 , Summon Monster VII
   8 Maze, Greater Planar Binding, Summon Monster VIII, Trap the Soul
   9 Summon Monster IX, Teleportation Circle


Divination
   1 Detect Secret Doors, Detect Undead, Identify
   2 Detect Thoughts, Locate Object
   3 Arcane Sight, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
   4 Detect Scrying, Locate Creature, Scrying
   5 Contact Other Plane, Telepathic Bond
   6 Analyze Dweomer, Legend Lore
   7 Greater Arcane Sight, Greater Scrying, Vision
   8 Discern Location
   9 Foresight


Enchantment
   1 Hypnotism, Sleep
   2 Hideous Laughter, Touch of Idiocy
   3 Rage, Suggestion
   4 Confusion, Lesser Geas
   5 Dominate Person, Feeblemind, Mind Fog
   6 Geas/Quest, Mass Suggestion
   7 Insanity, Symbol of Stunning
   8 Antipathy, Binding, Irresistible Dance, Symbol of Insanity, Sympathy
   9 Dominate Monster, Power Word Kill

Evocation
   1
   2
   3 Tiny Hut
   4 Resilient Sphere, Wall of Fire, Wall of Ice
   5 Sending, Wall of Force
   6 Contingency
   7 Delayed Blast Fireball, Forcecage
   8 Greater Shout, Sunburst
   9 Meteor Swarm

Illusion
   1 Color Spray, Magic Aura, Ventriloquism
   2 Hypnotic Pattern, Magic Mouth, Mirror Image, Phantom Trap
   3 Displacement, Illusory Script, Invisibility Sphere
   4 Hallucinatory Terrain, Illusory Wall, Phantasmal Killer, Rainbow Pattern, Shadow Conjuration
   5 Mirage Arcana, Seeming, Shadow Evocation
   6 Mislead, Shadow Walk, Veil
   7 Project Image, Greater Shadow Conjuration, Simulacrum
   8 Screen, Greater Shadow Evocation
   9 Shades, Weird


Necromancy
   1 Chill Touch, Ray of Enfeeblement
   2 Command Undead, Ghoul Touch, Spectral Hand
   3 Gentle Repose, Halt Undead, Vampiric Touch
   4 Animate Dead, Enervation
   5 Magic Jar, Symbol of Pain
   6 Circle of Death, Create Undead, Undeath to Death
   7 Control Undead, Symbol of Weakness
   8 Clone, Create Greater Undead, Symbol of Death
   9 Energy Drain, Soul Bind, Wail of the Banshee

Transmutation
   1 Magic Weapon
   2
   3 Flame Arrow, Gaseous Form, Keen Edge, Greater Magic Weapon, Secret Page, Shrink Item, Water Breathing
   4 Polymorph, Stone Shape
   5 Animal Growth, Baleful Polymorph, Fabricate, Transmute Mud to Rock, Transmute Rock to Mud
   6 , Disintegrate,
   7 Ethereal Jaunt, Reverse Gravity, Statue
   8 Iron Body, Polymorph Any Object, Temporal Stasis
   9 Etherealness, Shapechange
[/spoiler]


There are some typos on the front page. Hypnotic Pattern, Resilient Sphere, and Imprisonment are in the wrong schools.

Thanks!  That is nice for reference.  When I get a chance, I'll fix the typos.