Author Topic: D&D Spells [Rebalancing 3.5]  (Read 67725 times)

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RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Spells [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #200 on: January 25, 2009, 02:18:58 PM »
Wait a minute. Full round = full round, or 1 round? Depending on your answer you either did very little, or Epic Failed.
One entire round, not a full-round action.  Just like Sleep and Summon Monster ___.  So, I'm assuming you're chalking that one under epic fail?

Other than that, I agree that FoM will be more of a help than a hinderance to most players.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2009, 02:21:50 PM by RobbyPants »
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Sunic_Flames

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Re: D&D Spells [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #201 on: January 25, 2009, 04:44:20 PM »
Yes. Both because the enemies will no longer be in a situation where the spells are useful and because it's too easily interrupted by anything, leading to a complete waste of a round. Not to mention playing the action economy only works if it is actually a net gain, which that also fucks with. Summon Monster line spells only get used before kicking in the door, or with something that speeds them up for exactly this reason. Which means you're stuck with piddly little blasting, which is better now, but still doesn't actually hinder enemies in any way until they die.

Now remember that non casters tend to get owned hard by any non gimped monster. Well, those spells gimp them nicely. The only other option is DM coddling so they can serve their Camp Follower role in that respect. Dunno about you, but if I'm going to be a beatstick I'd rather the enemies get gimped because of God's judgment or CoDzilla's smack down than because the DM was holding back.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Spells [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #202 on: January 25, 2009, 06:45:28 PM »
Well, if they rush you and kill the group before you spell goes off, then it's certainly a problem.  Still, if you want to get a spell off quickly, you have the option of debuffs (which gimp the monsters) and battlefield manipulation (which might hold them fast), as well as direct damage (probably won't stop them outright, but it's been improved).

If rushing isn't a good option (because melee PCs with reach are blocking, or whatever), then the monster(s) may run to break line of effect.  If this happens, then the caster can always stop the spell.  The monsters blew their round trying not to get hit.  This seems like a fair trade-off action wise.

Still, they can't always run or stop the caster.  So those spells will still work just fine.

Also, let's not forget this is a double-edge sword.  PCs are going to get fucked by these same spells a lot less often.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Midnight_v

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Re: D&D Spells [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #203 on: January 25, 2009, 08:03:16 PM »
Quote
The illusions bit I threw in to counter the True Seeing negates line. As long as you aren't a one trick pony, you can still do something. So I recommend diverting that 'remove immunes' effort to 'remove one trick ponies'
. My sentiments exactly.

Quote
One entire round, not a full-round action.  Just like Sleep and Summon Monster ___.  So, I'm assuming you're chalking that one under epic fail?
 
  I'd assumed thats what was meant looks like I was right.
I'm going to say Fail. Not Epic fail, but fail nonetheless.
That dynamic doesn't "fix" anything. It seems that it follows the path of "forced" evocation, close but not quite 4th ed.
The entire point of those spells it has been determined is to win action economy... and since you've given the other classes a boost it shouldn't be as big a gap really.
How do I put this... you have rebalanced by saying "This no longer works. Use this instead"
SoD 1 full round? Maybe.
Stinking Cloud, 1 full round before the spell manifests? Okay so... no more stinking cloud.
Run the encounter yourself.
Attempt to cast stinking cloud to give the party a chance to run from an encounter. Start casting....
Monsters charge... Get thier licks in.
Say you make your concentration check.
Your spell goes off but already the monsters are amongst you...
\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Spells [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #204 on: January 25, 2009, 09:12:36 PM »
Bringing the non-casters up in power isn't good enough.  The goal was to get them around tier 3.  I still have to bring the Tier 1's and 2's down a bit.  Something's gotta go.  It seems the most obvious thing is nerfing the things that make them own.

Maybe I've gone too far.  I still think most SoDs should be a full round.  The action-limiting conditions could maybe be changed.  You have a point with AoE effects.  If they charge in, then they won't work. 

Although, the group could attempt to work together as a finely tuned machine to pull off greater effects.  Melee has always done its best with reach.  They can use those weapons to keep the enemies back, and allow the AoE to go off without getting caught themselves.

As far as "forced evocation" goes, there are still buffs, debuffs, battlefield manipulation (which might pin an enemy in a future AoE), and other utility.  The bulk of the spell list should be unaffected as far as casting time goes.

Also, I think a lot of this can be improved if we decide what that caster can and cannot do during that full round of casting.  Basicly, I'd submit the following:

Once the caster decides to cast a spell with a casting time of one full round, he cannot change the spell, although, he can opt to stop casting before the spell goes off and save the spell slot.  The target/AoE does not need to be picked until the spell goes off, so the caster can dynamically target as needed.  If no valid target is available (or desirable), then the caster can dismiss the spell at the last minute.

I think that would help keep them from getting screwed.  Sure, you run the risk of spending a round doing nothing, but you may also have forced your opponent's hand.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Spells [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #205 on: January 25, 2009, 09:14:16 PM »
As far as what both of you say about immunities and one-trick-ponies, I think I agree.  I'm fine with leaving FoM and True Seeing as-is.

I removed the changes to Freedom of Movement, Knock, and Arcane Lock.  So far as I know, those were the only spells on the front page changed to boost skills.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2009, 09:16:35 PM by RobbyPants »
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Spells [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #206 on: January 25, 2009, 09:56:50 PM »
Another thought is to further break down that list of conditions.  Some are more clearly stronger than others.

These conditions don't necessarily deny the target of their actions, but rather part of their actions (with the exception of blind, which just seriously nerfs the ability to do anything useful).  Spells that bestow yhese conditions could take a full-round action to cast:

Blinded
Confused
Nauseated
Staggered

The remaning conditions could take an entire round to cast, as I mentioned earlier:

Dazed
Disabled
Dying
Fascinated
Frightened
Helpless
Panicked
Paralyzed
Petrified
Stunned
Unconscious
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Spells [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #207 on: January 26, 2009, 10:03:10 PM »
Any thoughts?

What about the part I added:
Quote
Once the caster decides to cast a spell with a casting time of one full round, he cannot change the spell, although, he can opt to stop casting before the spell goes off and save the spell slot.  The target/AoE does not need to be picked until the spell goes off, so the caster can dynamically target as needed.  If no valid target is available (or desirable), then the caster can dismiss the spell at the last minute.

Do you think that will leave a caster less vulnerable during a full round of casting?
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Spells [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #208 on: January 28, 2009, 09:28:00 AM »
For the time being, I'm going to add this clause to the front page, to further explain a caster's actions when using a spell that takes an entire round to cast:

Once the caster decides to cast a spell with a casting time of one full round, he cannot change the spell, although, he can opt to stop casting before the spell goes off and save the spell slot.  The target/AoE does not need to be picked until the spell goes off, so the caster can dynamically target as needed.  If no valid target is available (or desirable), then the caster can dismiss the spell at the last minute.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Midnight_v

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Re: D&D Spells [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #209 on: January 28, 2009, 10:05:29 AM »
For the time being, I'm going to add this clause to the front page, to further explain a caster's actions when using a spell that takes an entire round to cast:

Once the caster decides to cast a spell with a casting time of one full round, he cannot change the spell, although, he can opt to stop casting before the spell goes off and save the spell slot.  The target/AoE does not need to be picked until the spell goes off, so the caster can dynamically target as needed.  If no valid target is available (or desirable), then the caster can dismiss the spell at the last minute.
Interesting... hmm... still thinking. . . but that seems at least fair.
\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Spells [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #210 on: January 28, 2009, 11:53:33 AM »
Yeah, I realized that we should spell out what can and can't be done when you're casting a spell like this.  I agree fully that if you are tied down to targeting a specific area or target, a lot of things can change in that round.  This still ties the caster to an action (and even a specific spell), but at least they can change the target on the fly, and if worse comes to worst, he can simply bail out and even save the slot.

The other nice thing about this is that enemies without Spellcraft have no idea what the hell the caster is doing.  All they know is something's coming.  They have to make a blind guess, and if they can't stop the caster directly, they have to take a gamble to either GTFO of line of effect, or get up close to the allies.  Breaking line of effect will be safe in most cases, but it forces your hand; you probably just wasted a round saving your ass.  Getting up close to the other PCs is iffy.  If you're dealing with an AoE, then you might be safe, but if it's a targeted spell, you didn't do anything to save yourself.

Also, lets not forget that quite a few spells aren't effected this way (debuffs, terrain modification, direct damage, etc...).  Also, a clever caster can use terrain modification to trap someone to set up for the longer casting time spells.

I might have to see this in practice to see how it really plays out, but I'm hoping for both an effective nerf to casters as well as a new dynamic to game play.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Midnight_v

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Re: D&D Spells [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #211 on: January 28, 2009, 12:34:41 PM »
how would sleet storm work?
\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Spells [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #212 on: January 28, 2009, 12:50:42 PM »
Good question.

I guess does "blocking all sight" equate to blindness?  If so, technically it bestows that condition and would take an entire round to cast.  I'd have to say they're the same thing.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Midnight_v

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  • Posts: 2660
  • Dulce et decorum est pro alea mori.
Re: D&D Spells [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #213 on: January 28, 2009, 06:53:43 PM »
Good question.

I guess does "blocking all sight" equate to blindness?  If so, technically it bestows that condition and would take an entire round to cast.  I'd have to say they're the same thing.

:nonono
*sigh* I have to accept this because I can offer no proper solution. For now I aquiesse
\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Spells [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #214 on: January 28, 2009, 10:38:08 PM »
Although, I just reread it and changed my mind.  It "blocks all sight within it."  This means you can't see into it and shoot into it either.  That's a huge difference from Glitterdust.  Really, Sleet Storm traps foes inside (somewhat) and renders them damn near useless, but at the same time, you can't just shoot back at them (unless you use an AoE).

So, no - it's casting time isn't increased.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Chemus

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Re: D&D Spells [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #215 on: January 29, 2009, 05:21:56 AM »
This is not in direct response to anything that might have been said already here; so I apologize in advance if I'm stepping on toes here:

Humanoids, Monstrous Humanoids, Giants, most Fey, a few Aberrations (Elan, Illithid, umm...), most Outsiders and a few other creatures are all shaped the damned same. Why can I alter self into a goblin but not a bugbear or an elan? The humanoid shape should be a subtype, and make Humanoids into People, and Monstrous Humanoids into Monsters. Anything referring to the humanoid type for polymorphic purposes gets those expanded options.


I'd prefer changing the text for alter self to read much like the change shape special quality, but reference number of limbs rather than creature type, thusly:

Quote from: SRD, modified by me

What I really see as 'brokded' about the polymorph line of spells is that they offer many options for buffing that are covered by other spells: NA (barkskin), Stat modification (bull's strength, cat's grace), and movement options (waterbreathing, fly). I'd rather see polymorph, or at least alter self, as not a buffing spell, but as a disguise and utility spell.

As I've rewritten alter self, I could change into a wolf or dire wolf shape, a succubus shape, a medium or large snake shape, or an octopus (its head is its body, so eight limbs (head, tail, 2 arms, 2 legs, +2 for the spell). Other than disguise, natural weapons (up to one on each limb, so up to 8 secondary attacks, at -5 to hit unless you take the multiattack feat), and movement options, I get zilch. Nada. But I don't lose what I've already got unless I don't have the right parts. That came out wrong. Good.

Whaddaya all think?
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The freely downloadable and searchable 3.5 SRD I prefer (Web)
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veekie

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Re: D&D Spells [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #216 on: January 29, 2009, 05:28:55 AM »
I'd just do to Alter Self what has been done with polymorph, break it into a menu of stuff you can get out of it, with the form limitation being only applicable for the Disguise use of it.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Spells [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #217 on: January 29, 2009, 09:41:41 AM »
I'd just do to Alter Self what has been done with polymorph, break it into a menu of stuff you can get out of it, with the form limitation being only applicable for the Disguise use of it.
My only reservations with that is that the old version of Alter Self only granted skills, natural armor, and movement modes.  I felt this was simple enough to just cap each of those by caster level.

I wanted to add the choice to Polymorph because the spell is so damn big.  That way, mechanically, rather than choosing a monster and getting stats, you would pick stats based on your caster level, and choose a monster that is suitable to those stats.

My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: D&D Spells [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #218 on: January 29, 2009, 10:03:43 AM »
Personally the ideas that led to that was,"Why leave a loophole?" and consistency across effects of the same variety.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Spells [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #219 on: January 29, 2009, 10:19:11 AM »
Personally the ideas that led to that was,"Why leave a loophole?" and consistency across effects of the same variety.
Do you see any loopholes in this version?
[spoiler=Alter Self]Alter Self

Works as printed in the PHB with the following exceptions:
- The natural amror gained by the spell is capped at 1/3 caster level (max +5 at 15th level).
- Any racial skill bonuses gained by the spell is capped at 1/3 caster level (max +4 at 12th level).
- Any movement speeds gained by the spell is capped at 10 feet per 3 caster levels (max 50 feet at 15th level).  Use the caster's base land speed if it is higher.  Flight speeds are not granted until caster level 5, and the maneuverability is never greater than average.[/spoiler]

I guess at 15th level, it's a pretty potent 2nd level spell, but it still caps NA at +5, racial skill bonuses at +4, and a max speed of 50 feet.  Also, flight isn't granted until 5th level.  This should fix any problems like with those dwarves with the +18 NA. 

Also, even if you pick a trogoldite (one of the best low HD humaniods), you still only get +1 NA at 3rd level.  You'll never even hit the racial +6 that it normally grants.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]