Author Topic: D&D Skills & Feats [Rebalancing 3.5]  (Read 99354 times)

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veekie

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Re: D&D Skills & Feats [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #480 on: April 24, 2009, 01:57:24 AM »
Well, IIRC, one of it was that it's not hard to simply make sure you autopass defensive casting, boning the 'melee AoO' threat thing. Fixing that could break gishes who make that a staple of their existence though.
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"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
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Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
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[/spoiler]

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crashy75

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Re: D&D Skills & Feats [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #481 on: April 25, 2009, 12:19:03 AM »
I am coming in late and I admit that I haven't read the 24 pages of this thread, but has defensive casting and tumble (to avoid AoO) been addressed?  IIRC (It's been a while since I played 3.5) but I believe they were vs. a static DC (15 for tumbling to avoid an AoO I think).  I didn't see anything on the first page (though perhaps it's on the PDF- I've only glanced at it so far) but I think that perhaps they should be opposed somehow to BAB (and/or perhaps ref save bonus) +10 or something.  Has this come up/been solved?

Thanks!


I don't think it's been changed. Not that I see any particular reason to, though; why do you think it needs to be addressed? It's never been a problem.
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RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Skills & Feats [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #482 on: April 29, 2009, 09:44:38 AM »
There are still a lot of the PHB feats that I haven't beefed up, which leaves some of them quite lackluster.  One set is the archery feats.  Now, I've never been really good at building archers, and I don't have several books that have key components that almost every archer builds, so I guess I'm not sure the best way to approach this.  In other words changes I suggest might not make sense with other material involved.  Anyway, here are a few tenative suggestions:

Precise Shot
In addition to its normal benifits, add in the benifits of Point Blank Shot.  Remove PBS as a prereq (so the only prereq is Dex 13+)


Point Blank Shot
Remove this feat.  All feats that have it as a prereq now have Precise Shot as a prereq.


Far Shot
In addition to the normal benifits, this adds +30 feet to the range at which you can apply precision damage such as Sneak Attack, Skirmish, and Sudden Strike.

Any thoughts?
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Kuroimaken

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Re: D&D Skills & Feats [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #483 on: April 29, 2009, 11:40:25 AM »
There are still a lot of the PHB feats that I haven't beefed up, which leaves some of them quite lackluster.  One set is the archery feats.  Now, I've never been really good at building archers, and I don't have several books that have key components that almost every archer builds, so I guess I'm not sure the best way to approach this.  In other words changes I suggest might not make sense with other material involved.  Anyway, here are a few tenative suggestions:

Precise Shot
In addition to its normal benifits, add in the benifits of Point Blank Shot.  Remove PBS as a prereq (so the only prereq is Dex 13+)


Point Blank Shot
Remove this feat.  All feats that have it as a prereq now have Precise Shot as a prereq.


Far Shot
In addition to the normal benifits, this adds +30 feet to the range at which you can apply precision damage such as Sneak Attack, Skirmish, and Sudden Strike.

Any thoughts?


I like the addition on Far Shot. Gives sniper types something to really think about.
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veekie

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Re: D&D Skills & Feats [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #484 on: April 30, 2009, 10:26:18 AM »
I really like the Far Shot. Gives sniper types a range increaser that doesn't take magic to accomplish. Of course, theres the problem of finding the guy who's sneak attacking you from outside your charge range.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Midnight_v

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Re: D&D Skills & Feats [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #485 on: April 30, 2009, 10:48:42 AM »
I really like the Far Shot. Gives sniper types a range increaser that doesn't take magic to accomplish. Of course, theres the problem of finding the guy who's sneak attacking you from outside your charge range.
Hence the term... "sniper" I suppose.  :D
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RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Skills & Feats [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #486 on: April 30, 2009, 12:49:23 PM »
Do I have enough of a consensus to move forward with these three feats?  So far I have no objections.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Risada

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Re: D&D Skills & Feats [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #487 on: April 30, 2009, 12:50:51 PM »
Go for it, Rob  ;)

Eldariel

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Re: D&D Skills & Feats [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #488 on: May 01, 2009, 05:37:56 AM »
Awesome. Toss in Power Shot with e.g. Precise Shot + 13 Str as prerequisite and we're golden. Maybe Archery won't be the red-headed bastard stepchild of combat styles anymore. Or better yet, roll Power Shot & Power Throw into the Power Attack-feat. This would make it so much easier to make a guy who's decent in both, melee and ranged combat (although it's worth noting that this would gear these types towards THF+Range since THF is the style most enabled by Power Attack).
« Last Edit: May 01, 2009, 05:40:58 AM by Eldariel »

Midnight_v

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Re: D&D Skills & Feats [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #489 on: May 01, 2009, 07:05:08 AM »
Awesome. Toss in Power Shot with e.g. Precise Shot + 13 Str as prerequisite and we're golden. Maybe Archery won't be the red-headed bastard stepchild of combat styles anymore. Or better yet, roll Power Shot & Power Throw into the Power Attack-feat. This would make it so much easier to make a guy who's decent in both, melee and ranged combat (although it's worth noting that this would gear these types towards THF+Range since THF is the style most enabled by Power Attack).
Uhmm... I fail my sense motive. . .
Is he being sarcastic or not?  :(  ???
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Risada

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Re: D&D Skills & Feats [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #490 on: May 01, 2009, 11:28:45 AM »
Awesome. Toss in Power Shot with e.g. Precise Shot + 13 Str as prerequisite and we're golden. Maybe Archery won't be the red-headed bastard stepchild of combat styles anymore. Or better yet, roll Power Shot & Power Throw into the Power Attack-feat. This would make it so much easier to make a guy who's decent in both, melee and ranged combat (although it's worth noting that this would gear these types towards THF+Range since THF is the style most enabled by Power Attack).
Uhmm... I fail my sense motive. . .
Is he being sarcastic or not?  :(  ???

I will take my chances by saying no. Eldariel isn't being sarcastic.

Eldariel

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Re: D&D Skills & Feats [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #491 on: May 02, 2009, 11:53:09 PM »
Awesome. Toss in Power Shot with e.g. Precise Shot + 13 Str as prerequisite and we're golden. Maybe Archery won't be the red-headed bastard stepchild of combat styles anymore. Or better yet, roll Power Shot & Power Throw into the Power Attack-feat. This would make it so much easier to make a guy who's decent in both, melee and ranged combat (although it's worth noting that this would gear these types towards THF+Range since THF is the style most enabled by Power Attack).
Uhmm... I fail my sense motive. . .
Is he being sarcastic or not?  :(  ???

Nope, he's not.

SiggyDevil

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Re: D&D Skills & Feats [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #492 on: May 03, 2009, 05:37:13 AM »
Uhmm... I fail my sense motive. . .
Is he being sarcastic or not?  :(  ???

I share similar opinion concerning archery's selection of abilities but it isn't a waste of time to pursue it as a combat tactic.

See, Ranged > Melee in most instances. Unless you're stuck in a box or masochistic, you'll want to hurt your foe without getting hurt.

I see the feat problem as more of 'warrior hate' than anything else. It's easy for casters to grab a metamagic and gain full use of it forever, but combat trees downright suck.
Frank & K's Tome series have decent self-scaling feats (base function + 1 more at every 5th level benchmark) but sometimes the ability granted later just doesn't do jack shit for you.

veekie

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Re: D&D Skills & Feats [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #493 on: May 11, 2009, 11:37:36 AM »
RE: Open Lock vs Disable Device
I say fold them, nearly nobody who's got one won't have the other, and for opening locks alone, theres adamantine/Mountain Hammer lockpicks even. The circumstance of wanting to leave the lock intact is in a sense, remarkably similar to disabling a trap without destroying it anyway.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

Sinfire Titan

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Re: D&D Skills & Feats [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #494 on: May 12, 2009, 01:00:19 AM »
RE: Power Attack/Combat Expertise/Other feats like that.

I had an idea yesterday while riding my bike, what if Power Attack didn't involve a penalty? What if they were like this instead?


Power Attack
Prerequisites: Str 13, Con 13
Benefit: Whenever you deal damage with a one-handed or two-handed melee weapon, you may add your Constitution modifier to the damage roll in addition to your Strength modifier.


I'll add Combat Expertise later. Internet is getting shut down for the night.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Skills & Feats [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #495 on: May 12, 2009, 09:40:25 AM »
It's a huge change; that's for sure.  I think it might be too much, because it will really hurt non-ToB melee characters, and they're the ones who need the most help.  As far as feats go, I think it's decent, power level wise.  I think it's a solid choice.  I'd choose this in a game where regular PA wasn't available, but it changes so many things that are keyed on Power Attack (Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, etc) and that gets rid of a huge percentage of damage for melee characters.



On a semi-related note, I had a similar idea for a version of Power Attack that had no penalties, but this would be for an entirely different game.  The idea is all classes would have abilities powered off of points (similar to psionics), and Power Attack could be something like +1d6 damage with an "augment" of +1d6 per additional point spent.  Although that's for a different idea...
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Hallack

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Re: D&D Skills & Feats [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #496 on: May 12, 2009, 10:13:11 AM »
I agree.  It is an interesting idea but I think it would just introduce more MAD issues.  That or would have low strength characters maxing out Con and just taking this feat to reduce MAD and power attacking ALL the time to get that Con to damage .  I guess can actually reduce MAD in a sense as well.
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RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Skills & Feats [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #497 on: May 12, 2009, 10:47:03 AM »
You'd still want Str to hit.   In terms of average expected damage before you swing your sword, you generally get more milage out of boosting your attack roll than by boosting your damage roll.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Sinfire Titan

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Re: D&D Skills & Feats [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #498 on: May 12, 2009, 12:18:33 PM »
It's a huge change; that's for sure.  I think it might be too much, because it will really hurt non-ToB melee characters, and they're the ones who need the most help.  As far as feats go, I think it's decent, power level wise.  I think it's a solid choice.  I'd choose this in a game where regular PA wasn't available, but it changes so many things that are keyed on Power Attack (Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, etc) and that gets rid of a huge percentage of damage for melee characters.



On a semi-related note, I had a similar idea for a version of Power Attack that had no penalties, but this would be for an entirely different game.  The idea is all classes would have abilities powered off of points (similar to psionics), and Power Attack could be something like +1d6 damage with an "augment" of +1d6 per additional point spent.  Although that's for a different idea...



I rushed that one, as my internet access was being shut down for the night, so I didn't have time to finish explaining my stance on the idea. In terms of actual damage, this does more than the normal PA. The average (and optimal) use of PA only applies between a -3 through -5 penalty to attack rolls, then multiplies that until it becomes somewhere around 200 points of damage per hit. This removes the penalty, but sets the damage to a much slower scale (the character's Con mod). In doing so, it retains power at every level (the lower levels it's an extra 3-5 points of damage per hit, at the high levels you are effectively getting PA for 10 with no penalty to the attack roll, which ups the damage dramatically thanks to all of the multipliers). It does eliminate Shock Trooper and similar feats related to the penalty, but effects that multiple the damage from PA should be translated to fit the new version (multiplying your Con mod instead of the penalty).

The exception is 2-handed weapons. I left that part of Power Attack out on purpose last night. Without that change, One-Handed weapons aren't automatically out-classed by Two-Handed ones. Two-Handers still have the extra Str to damage rolls, but that's it now. Effects like Power Attack and the effects that multiply the extra damage no longer grant extra benefits for using a Two-Handed weapon.

Instead of the normal benefits of Leap Attack (100% increase for PA on a Charge, or 200% for using a 2HW), you get the latter of the benefits for any weapon you could PA with (any non-light weapon).

This also makes PA useful for TWFers, as the extra damage no longer comes out of your To-Hit modifier (which we all know is low for damn near everyone who isn't focused on it). The damage now comes from a stat you normally boost anyway (Con). In effect, while this does make MAD more noticeable, it pays off by rewarding you for making a tougher melee character.




Let me revise the feat idea. I'll remove the Str requirement, and make a few more changes.


[spoiler]Power Attack
You know how to shift your weight into each attack, adding more mass to the blow and putting more pressure on their defenses with each successful attack.
Prerequisites: Con 13, Proficient with a one-handed or two-handed melee weapon.
Benefit: Whenever you deal damage with a one-handed or two-handed melee weapon, you may add your Constitution modifier to the damage roll in addition to your Strength modifier.
Special: You cannot use this feat in conjunction with Weapon Finesse, or with weapons that allow Weapon Finesse (such as the Spiked Chain or Rapier).

Combat Expertise
Sometimes, the best defense is to just pay attention to where the enemy is swinging, and meet them half-way.
Prerequisites: Int 13
Benefits: You can Fight Defensively without penalty as a Swift action. In addition, whenever you fight defensively or wield a shield you may add your Int modifier as a Dodge bonus to your AC (or the normal +2 for fighting defensively, if it is better than your Int modifier).
Normal: Fighting defensively is a Standard action (or Full round action) that applies a -4 penalty to your attack rolls for that round. Shields do not grant a doge bonus to your AC.

Weapon Finesse
You have mastered the art of fencing, and can show this competence with frightening efficiency.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, proficient with a Light melee weapon or a weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse (such as the Rapier or Spiked Chain).
Benefit: When attacking with a Light melee weapon or a melee weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse, you may add your Dex modifier to the attack rolls instead of your Str modifier.
Special
: You cannot use the Power Attack feat on weapons that benefit from Weapon Finesse.[/spoiler]


Ok, so all I really did is make the feats somewhat better and nerfed the Spiked Chain (because we all know it needs a kick in the nuts). The only real change to Weapon Finesse is the requirements. The change to Combat expertise is major, but increases MAD (somewhat). Warblades will love that and PA now.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Skills & Feats [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #499 on: May 12, 2009, 03:31:29 PM »
So, in your new Combat Expertise example, you'd get your Int mod to AC if you fight defensively or use a shield?  I can see low level wizards taking this and getting a buckler...

I guess it does help the swashbuckler types.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]