Author Topic: D&D Skills & Feats [Rebalancing 3.5]  (Read 99239 times)

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Elennsar

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Re: D&D Skills & Feats [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #100 on: September 21, 2008, 09:26:59 PM »
1) Point being, paladins have a limited array of targets their super special awesome abilities work against. A fighter is as effective (other than crits) vs. a golem as a dragon, a paladin is less so.

Animal companions are useful, but supplemental rather than primary. Spells...depends on what spells. Some are a big deal. Some, not so much.

2) I am not interested in derailing this project. I am interested in pointing out that if the goal is to make the Fighter "the best because he's a pure combatant", then we don't need ten other "I am a pure combatant" classes. Swashbucklers are a variant of Fighters as written. Samurai (as written) are as well. Do any of the things either does fit the "I am a fighter (small f) with skills" like rangers or "I am a fighter with talents" like paladins? Or are they just different styles of attack and defense and level of armor vs. level of Dexterity and such?

As for classless system...I do prefer classless systems. Failing that, classes should not be competing for the same position..in the fighter's case, it would be better to have "Be a Fighter and master combat or be a (something else) and do combat and other things or be a (something else) and don't do much combat (other than via spells)." than having ten versions of "master at combat" because the Fighter class as written is not flexible enough to represent a Swashbuckler's abilities without multiclassing.
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Midnight_v

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Re: D&D Skills & Feats [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #101 on: September 21, 2008, 09:58:33 PM »
1) All things being equal is the goal of this project. Fighters should not become overpowered in one aspect to compensate for being worthless elsewhere, that's not balance.

2) The Fighter is "I am the greatest warrior." That should include both "I am Conan." and "I am Musashi."

3) Samurai (as in the guys from feudal Japan) were warriors with noble backgrounds.  I'm not sure what any of the abilities we're thinking of are doing besides "I am a warrior" as a role.

4) Other warriors have mostly noncombat or specialized combat abilities. Paladins, for instance, are great vs. undead and evil outsiders...but those are not all that common. Similarly, rangers have great wilderness skills...which don't directly contribute to combat.

5) No, my goal is to point out that making a better game may involve rewriting. D&D does not need ten classes all claiming to be the Best at Fighting People. It needs the class meant to be good at fighting people to be good at that and able to do more things than "me hack and slash with heavy armor and oversized swords".

Why shouldn't the Fighter be able to be a swashbuckler as easily as a knight as easily as a huscarl as a samurai?



Quote
5) No, my goal is to point out that making a better game may involve rewriting.


Quote
1) Point being, paladins have a limited array of targets their super special awesome abilities work against. A fighter is as effective (other than crits) vs. a golem as a dragon, a paladin is less so

a. You need to review the Paladin were talking about.
b. The paladin will be better than a fighter at killing/defeating those things that thier Power set allows for.
ANYTHING EVIL. Which is a huge amount of things.
 Fighters will be good generically vs everything. Vs a dragon (evil) The paladin should be worth more what with the "smite".
The fighter will be better vs. the golem. Or a neutral Dragon.
A fighter Archer will out perform a ranger archer except vs that ragers 5 favored enemies or as you say depending on the spell "arrow split" being the most notable. As well it should be.
,,,,
,,,,

Midnight_v stood amazed at  for a second a the beasts list of immunities... "You must of the fiendish variety..." simply shrugging and firing off another spell at the creatures writhing form, growing increasingly irritated by the inconvienence of having do deal with these types of things personally..."hmm, must research similaricrums"
\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"

Elennsar

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Re: D&D Skills & Feats [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #102 on: September 21, 2008, 10:04:05 PM »
I know the paladin you're talking about it. Its a good version. Its still "I get special bonuses versus some enemies." rather than "I am generally strong.". That's not to say its useless elsewhere. But a paladin is better vs. undead and demons and the like. A fighter is equally capable vs. anything he can hit.

A fighter, if too boosted by "general combat adept", will be strong enough that the ranger bonuses vs. a favored enemy are minor.

Spells...depends on the spells. Some offer a great boost. Some are a useful edge. Some are not combat related.
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



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Kuroimaken

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Re: D&D Skills & Feats [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #103 on: September 21, 2008, 10:45:58 PM »
*presents a pair of glasses to everyone on the thread*

Goddamnit, people, FOCUS. We're not going to get anywhere if we keep arguing like bitches on speed.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

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Elennsar

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Re: D&D Skills & Feats [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #104 on: September 21, 2008, 11:11:58 PM »
Right.

So...honest question here.

Do we NEED a Swashbuckler class, or simply the ability to play that kind of character (which could be done as a path/specialization of Fighter if the class supported it)?

Picking Swashbucklers as something the hardest to do without multiclassing with PHB classes.

Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

JaronK

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Re: D&D Skills & Feats [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #105 on: September 21, 2008, 11:13:27 PM »
Okay, so ignoring Elennsar, can we agree that Fighters could use having better use of feats than other classes?  Even if we have things scale a bit with BAB, allowing Fighters to add their Fighter level to their BAB for such calculations (effectively meaning all other classes progress at half speed) would really help.

And I think the idea that a Fighter would be best in a fight where you just sit there smacking the other guy, whereas other melees would have different specialities (Barbarians charging, Warblades being more mobile, Crusaders commanding others, and so on) is a very good one.  Since Fighters only have feats, we have to have feats scale specially for Fighters such that this is actually possible.

JaronK

Kuroimaken

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Re: D&D Skills & Feats [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #106 on: September 21, 2008, 11:22:36 PM »
Quote
Do we NEED a Swashbuckler class, or simply the ability to play that kind of character (which could be done as a path/specialization of Fighter if the class supported it)?

You mean like a variant class, or just a "pick this and that feat and you have a Swashbucklerish Fighter"?

Personally, I like the idea of a Fighter getting more out of feats earlier than everyone else does but without closing the benefits to them. For example, I like the idea of a Weapon Focus-like feat where a Fighter10 gains about +6 to hit while everyone else gains, say, +4 (but WITHOUT basing it off BAB).
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


Midnight_v

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Re: D&D Skills & Feats [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #107 on: September 21, 2008, 11:35:23 PM »
Okay, so ignoring Elennsar, can we agree that Fighters could use having better use of feats than other classes?  Even if we have things scale a bit with BAB, allowing Fighters to add their Fighter level to their BAB for such calculations (effectively meaning all other classes progress at half speed) would really help.

And I think the idea that a Fighter would be best in a fight where you just sit there smacking the other guy, whereas other melees would have different specialities (Barbarians charging, Warblades being more mobile, Crusaders commanding others, and so on) is a very good one.  Since Fighters only have feats, we have to have feats scale specially for Fighters such that this is actually possible.

JaronK
Yeah 100% agree. How do you keep warblade from prospering as the count as fighters -2?
Also, we actually have a few fighter fixes that are being considered all of them have some new abilities, we might consider those as well for reference.

Quote
Goddamnit, people, FOCUS. We're not going to get anywhere if we keep arguing like bitches on speed.
Bitches on speed... probbably make for a hella of a ride. Okay okay focusing  :monocle
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Elennsar

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Re: D&D Skills & Feats [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #108 on: September 21, 2008, 11:39:21 PM »
Variant, mostly. Say "In exchange for medium and heavy armor proficiency, you get Grace (as the Swashbuckler class feature) (assuming fighters get Good Reflex saves already.)

As to fighters gaining more out of feats...I'd be willing to tolerate that if fighters were the only "I am a combat specialist"

When there's several "combat specialists", its not as reasonable.

Rangers, monks, paladins, barbarians all do different things besides "master combat", but a samurai and a mercenary are both equally interested in mastering killing people with swords (or whatever).

Giving Jaron and Midnight the finger for assuming that any proposal that any class or feat or spell be dropped for any reason...

Why should fighters only have feats? Why should the be kept special ability-less?

If it is possible to use as big a rewrite as the paladin suggested, it should be possible to do the equivalant to other classes if necessary.
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

Midnight_v

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Re: D&D Skills & Feats [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #109 on: September 21, 2008, 11:52:21 PM »
Quote from: Midnight_v
Also, we actually have a few fighter fixes that are being considered all of them have some new abilities, we might consider those as well for reference

Quote from: Elennsar
Giving Jaron and Midnight the finger for assuming that any proposal that any class or feat or spell be dropped for any reason...
Why should fighters only have feats? Why should the be kept special ability-less?
:clap

Why a focus on literacy is so important in today's world. . .  :rolleyes
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Elennsar

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Re: D&D Skills & Feats [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #110 on: September 21, 2008, 11:54:55 PM »
Midnight:

Quote
JaronK: And I think the idea that a Fighter would be best in a fight where you just sit there smacking the other guy, whereas other melees would have different specialities (Barbarians charging, Warblades being more mobile, Crusaders commanding others, and so on) is a very good one.  Since Fighters only have feats, we have to have feats scale specially for Fighters such that this is actually possible.

Thank you for demonstrating the importance of paying attention to what people are typing.
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Skills & Feats [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #111 on: September 21, 2008, 11:57:13 PM »
1) All things being equal is the goal of this project. Fighters should not become overpowered in one aspect to compensate for being worthless elsewhere, that's not balance.
The problem is that the core fighter doesn't have any class features.  All he gets is feats.  Raw quantity of feats makes him fall behind in power compared to everyone else unless he's getting something good from those feats.

Now, if we get a version of the fighter to fill in those dead levels that everyone likes, you might have a point.  It all depends on what the fighter looks like.


Do we NEED a Swashbuckler class, or simply the ability to play that kind of character (which could be done as a path/specialization of Fighter if the class supported it)?

Picking Swashbucklers as something the hardest to do without multiclassing with PHB classes.
I can go either way on this.  If the fighter is written in such a way that he doesn't suck in light armor, and there's a viable reason to either use a one-handed weapon or two weapons (without Sneak Attack), then maybe the fighter can fill that niche.  I'd worked up the beginnings of some changes in the Combat & Rules thread that might be of some use, but it hasn't come far enough to do away with the class.



Okay, so ignoring Elennsar, can we agree that Fighters could use having better use of feats than other classes?  Even if we have things scale a bit with BAB, allowing Fighters to add their Fighter level to their BAB for such calculations (effectively meaning all other classes progress at half speed) would really help.
I can definately agree to that.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Elennsar

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Re: D&D Skills & Feats [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #112 on: September 22, 2008, 12:01:36 AM »
1) The fighter really should. Even if he does get more use out of feats, there's a fair number of cool and useful things that he should be able to do. (some suggested in already, including fearlessness at high levels) and such.

2) I think we can make the fighter not suck in light armor if we make it so that light armor isn't basically "sure, you can move freely, but your AC blows".

I would not want to tie any (combat) feats to "light armor or less", though, either for fighters or rangers.

Its kind of silly that a ranger forgets how to fight with two weapons when he puts on chainmail, and remembers again when he takes it off.

But having say, "+2 to Initiative and a shield bonus equal to his Int when wearing light armor or less and not using a shield." kind of things would be good.
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

Midnight_v

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Re: D&D Skills & Feats [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #113 on: September 22, 2008, 12:07:30 AM »
Midnight:

Quote
JaronK: And I think the idea that a Fighter would be best in a fight where you just sit there smacking the other guy, whereas other melees would have different specialities (Barbarians charging, Warblades being more mobile, Crusaders commanding others, and so on) is a very good one.  Since Fighters only have feats, we have to have feats scale specially for Fighters such that this is actually possible.

Thank you for demonstrating the importance of paying attention to what people are typing.
You'll noticed what I said adressed that. The Also, "were giving the fighter class features part...

Robby: Have you decided which fix we'll be using then, or at least narrowed it down to one or two, so we can progress this part of the discussion appropriately?
\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"

Elennsar

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Re: D&D Skills & Feats [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #114 on: September 22, 2008, 12:25:06 AM »
If you did, it was a stealth post, because there's nothing after the one quoted saying "We're adding class features, remember?"

'gardless. If we agree they should have class features, what are they going to be?

Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Skills & Feats [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #115 on: September 22, 2008, 12:46:00 AM »
Robby: Have you decided which fix we'll be using then, or at least narrowed it down to one or two, so we can progress this part of the discussion appropriately?
No.  I'm sorry that I've been so busy.

JaronK has a thread on this board that he's been working on for a fighter fix.  I told him the two things I really wanted to see from my first work up was the Foil ability and Shake it Off.  He and Orion were helping me with the wording on those two abilities, but I don't think it's progressed much further than that. 

I like a lot of what he's added into the fighter.  I particularly like Art of War.  The Adaptive Feat idea is interesting, and it works well with Weapon Aptitude.  I also like True Grit, as long as it's handed out at a high enough level.  Perhaps in the next 12 hours I can write up some combination of these two.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Midnight_v

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Re: D&D Skills & Feats [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #116 on: September 22, 2008, 12:48:24 AM »
I'm really not liking Jaronk's, really loving your's and squrellords.
I gotta go to work for now, though.
*sigh* I'll have to present my arguments later.
\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Skills & Feats [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #117 on: September 22, 2008, 09:39:53 AM »
I'm really not liking Jaronk's, really loving your's and squrellords.
Do you remember where Squirlloid's fighter is?  Is it in that old 54-page thread I started?  I'll have to take a look at it again, but I don't have the time to read through forty or fifty pages to find it. :P

I do like certain apsects of JaronK's fighter.  We've discussed a few things in his thread, but so far we haven't gotten too far.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Skills & Feats [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #118 on: September 22, 2008, 10:12:15 AM »
M_V, I posted another version of the fighter here.  Depending on how well it's accepted, it might give us a better framework for how to handle feats and fighter bonuses.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Midnight_v

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Re: D&D Skills & Feats [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #119 on: September 22, 2008, 11:19:09 AM »
M_V, I posted another version of the fighter here.  Depending on how well it's accepted, it might give us a better framework for how to handle feats and fighter bonuses.
Check I reposted Squirrelords fighter too, it ended up being damn near the same build!
Check it out. I'd like to combine the two for a finalized version.
\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"