Author Topic: D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]  (Read 68158 times)

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SiggyDevil

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Re: D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #160 on: October 16, 2008, 12:37:09 AM »
veekie: Right. High level characters should even be able to crit and stab time-space, really. They're epic.
That's why I encourage a Precision Resistance or "hardness" against Precision rather than flat out immune; eventually someone powerful enough WILL get by those defenses, and pierce straight to the heart of... whatever it is.

Imagine, a Rogue scoring a crit on a stone wall and the whole thing explodes from that impact point outward.
They found the ideal alignment between molecules to stab, causing a chain reaction.


Rob: Sorry  but I don't like either. CUrrent setup in D&D is like that with various spells allowing Rogues to Sneak Attack X or Y type monster, and that's just too specific.
Option 3perhaps it should bypass DR entirely.

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #161 on: October 16, 2008, 11:51:51 AM »
I finally got around to reading Insightful Strike.  It's interesting, but as a standard action, you could only make one attack per round.  I might want to modify it somehow to use with the swashbuckler.

There's another way I could handle the skill check for the two "cinematic" abilities.  Instead of checking for success (so you always make the opponent lose his Dex bonus to AC), you add an additional +1 precision damage for every X points your check exceeds the listed DC.  I'm not sure what I want X to be; I'm thinking 4 at this point.  So, for example, if you do a Cinematic Strike (DC 15) and roll a Jump check of 25, you would get all the benifits of Cinematic Strike and deal an extra +2 precision damage.

Maybe +1 per 4 points over is too little.  I'm trying to find a balance point to make it not insane with a really good check roll.  Skill checks are one of the hardest things to control by level.

perhaps it should bypass DR entirely.
That's an interesting idea.  I'm a little hesitant to change combat rules around, but it might be a good way to get around crit imunity.  If you wanted to post this in the Comabat & Rules thread, we could discuss it further.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
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[/spoiler]

SiggyDevil

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Re: D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #162 on: October 20, 2008, 05:59:37 AM »
X = 1?

Seriously, it's just damage. Keep it in line with simple spell effects on a conditional basis and nothing would be out of line.

Also, will do on the repost. Probably more relevant there.

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #163 on: October 20, 2008, 09:47:17 AM »
X = 1?

Seriously, it's just damage. Keep it in line with simple spell effects on a conditional basis and nothing would be out of line.
Well, the only reason I wasn't sure how fast I wanted it to scale was because it stacks with the rest of your damage.  This isn't like the Insightful Strike ToB maneuver that lets you use a skill check for damage, without adding anything else.

Although, I guess I am subtracting 15 or 25 off the check, sinse you have to beat a base DC anyway.  Although, if you pimp one of your skills a bit, at 2nd level if you had that +14 mod, you could be pulling off +0 to +19 damage, averaging to just under +10 per hit.  It might be a bit much at levels that low.  I'm always nervous about basing results off of skill checks, since they're so hard to control on a level by level basis.

I suppose there's always the idea of adding your ranks to the roll, but that seems kind of lame to me.  Let me give this more thought.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #164 on: October 22, 2008, 09:48:11 AM »
So, I'm curious about everyone's opinion.  Given my swashbuckler form last page, which do you think is the best approach for Cinematic Strike and Charge?

1) Keep it the way it's posted, or

2) Have it always work.  Use the Balance/Jump/Tumble check to add extra precision damage on top of what's already rolled.

Also, I hand out these abilities at levels 2 and 6.  Should I make some improved version to hand out at a later level?  Looking at the progression I've made, it seems to really taper off after 6th level.  I give out Foil and Improved Foil, but I'm wondering how many people would prefer to jump out after level 6 and just continue with Rogue to advance their Sneak Attack faster.  You'd still end up with a BAB of +16 at level 20.  If you stay until level 6, you still get upward to +6 AC from Canny Defense, depending on your Int score. 

Did I front load this too much?  I guess I don't think the first six levels are overpowered.  Perhaps I didn't backload it enough.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 10:01:55 AM by RobbyPants »
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Elennsar

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Re: D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #165 on: October 22, 2008, 08:22:25 PM »
I vote for 1. Keep it the way it is.

And yes, backload it some. There's not enough "I am a warrior." in it at higher levels, relative to earlier. So it may not be "dipped" per se, but it would still be too tempting to multiclass out.
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SuperiorWizard

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Re: D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #166 on: October 22, 2008, 10:44:03 PM »
Weirdly enough, I agree with Elennsar about sneak attack not feeling quite right for the Swashbuckler.  As much as I dislike Sudden Strike, I feel that it is a more appropriate representation of what the Swashbuckler is about.  Then provide ways of making your opponent flat-footed verse you(Improved Feint/Swift Action Feint, acrobatic/cinematic charge).  I also like the idea of an improved Persistent Attacker[CAdv] feat/class ability.  This would allow a Swashbuckler to thematically keep an opponent off guard (sacrifice sa/ss for opponent being flatfooted next round) once he has found/made an opening in their defenses, constantly forcing them into a state of less than optimal defense.

Besides what I am pondering for my own campaign, I vote for point 2.  At higher levels characters really need abilities that are 'big' and 'meaty', such that the abilities have a certain weight to them when said/thought about.  I think this is one of the bigger failures of the PHB classes, that they drift off into nothingness (Fighter, Monk, Ranger, Paladin especially).  Basically, the Swashbuckler needs some higher (14~20) level abilities that say "Look at ME!  I'm a Swashbuckler and I'm AWESOME."  The ability doesn't necessary have to say that ingame, but the player should certainly be thinking that right before he activates/uses it.  If not, he might as well multiclass/PrC out to get an ability he does want.

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #167 on: October 22, 2008, 10:51:45 PM »
The only mechanical difference between Sudden Strike and Sneak Attack is you can't do the former soley by flanking.  I'd thing a swashbuckler would be even better if the opponent were distracted.  Obviously, in a one-on-one fencing dual, that would never come up, but I think it makes sense if he's out there with his buddies busting in some heads.

I still have to figure out what I want to do at the later levels.

Welcome to BG, by the way!  :D
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

JaronK

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Re: D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #168 on: October 22, 2008, 10:54:31 PM »
One note:  the name "Swashbuckler" comes from a time when dueling with swords was outlawed.  As such, those who wanted to duel with pretty much anyone would announce their intent by wearing a buckler and "swashing" it, that is to say sliding a blade across it to make a sound, with their sword.  This indicated that they were someone who'd duel anyone given the chance, thus the name "Swash Buckler" later contracting into "Swashbuckler."

So can we PLEASE make Swashbucklers proficient with bucklers?  It's just silly that they're not.

JaronK

Elennsar

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Re: D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #169 on: October 22, 2008, 11:14:47 PM »
About as silly as anything else that the game regularly accepts under the chant of "This. Is. FANTASY!", so while I do think buckler proficiency would make sense, invoking real world history to be part of it can rot unless that counts elsewhere as well.

Not sure what would be a good meaty ability. "I do ability damage" doesn't feel right. Not with ability damage as is, at least. Bleeding is not THAT dire.
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"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #170 on: October 22, 2008, 11:20:24 PM »
So can we PLEASE make Swashbucklers proficient with bucklers?  It's just silly that they're not.

Yeah, I forgot to include their proficiencies in the post.  They're supposed to be proficient in martial and simple weapons, light armor, and bucklers.  I vaugly hinted at it in the Canny Defense ability.  Still, easy to miss.

Canny Defense: At 1st level, the swashbuckler adds her Intelligence modifier to her AC.  She only gain this bonus if wearing light or no armor, wearing a buckler or no shield, and carrying a light load.  She does not add this bonus if denied her Dexterity bonus to her AC.  She adds a maximum bonus equal to her swashbuckler class level.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

JaronK

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Re: D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #171 on: October 23, 2008, 02:52:16 AM »
Okay, that's good. 

And Elennsar: it's just what the word means.  It would be like having a Wizard class that doesn't cast spells or something.  A "Swashbuckler" swashes bucklers.  Otherwise the word is simply nonsensical.

JaronK

Elennsar

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Re: D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #172 on: October 23, 2008, 02:58:12 AM »
Jaron: And its somehow not unacceptably nonsensical for people for monks to do 2d10 with their bare hands?

The term has been used to mean things having nothing to do with swashing or bucklers.

As for wizard, because I'm a nitcounter: Wizard has to do with wisdom. "Magic" is a relatively recent use.

Regardless, I'm not against it getting buckler proficiency, but you're going to insist that anything that had anything to do with the real world apply here, then it should apply elsewhere as well. It is no more reasonable for monks to do more damage with their fists than they would with a greatsword than for swashbucklers to necessarily use bucklers.

If you're interested in furthering this, I'm open to a new thread or a PM, but I'm sticking by that line, whether this drops or not.
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"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

JaronK

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Re: D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #173 on: October 23, 2008, 03:26:32 AM »
Jaron: And its somehow not unacceptably nonsensical for people for monks to do 2d10 with their bare hands?

No, because that is referring to shaolin monks, who did indeed deal damage with their hands.  Now, fantasy up that concept, and you have massive damage from hands (though really, 2d10 ain't much, but it can be optimized).  That's very different from having a character whose name means "duelist who indicated his readiness to duel by swashing his sword across with buckler" who can't use a buckler.

Quote
The term has been used to mean things having nothing to do with swashing or bucklers.

Still.  It just makes no sense, and there's no good reason for it. 

JaronK

Elennsar

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Re: D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #174 on: October 23, 2008, 03:34:03 AM »
Not really, no. The Shaolin also used staffs and other things. Now, if we were fantasyizing up the Boxers, I'd be a bit more willing to accept it. (While meanwhile laughing at the idea, but that's waaaaaaaaaaay off topic)

And agreed. I just don't think dragging in the real world is justified unless you're going to drag it in for other things, like monks prefering to hit people with fists than with maces, which is also ludicrious.

So. We agree practically speaking. Now, the real question is...what would make a high level swashbuckler worth taking? As someone playing a 6th level one (using a different form), I'm strongly thinking about the prestiges at the moment. I'm not sure if that's a bad thing or not.
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

JaronK

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Re: D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #175 on: October 23, 2008, 03:41:04 AM »
Not really, no. The Shaolin also used staffs and other things.

Yes really, yes.  They did use their fists to hit things.  They did use staffs too, which they do in D&D too.  What's the problem?

Quote
And agreed. I just don't think dragging in the real world is justified unless you're going to drag it in for other things, like monks prefering to hit people with fists than with maces, which is also ludicrious.

I believe that for roleplay to work, you have to have a real world basis, and then let fantasy take over from there.  Sacrifices to realism must take place for balance, simplicity of play, and setting related suspension of disbelief, but since none of those factors apply here, the realism thing does.  Monks would not be balanced without being able to do some damage, and are supposed to be quasi magical in the setting, so that's fine.

Quote
So. We agree practically speaking. Now, the real question is...what would make a high level swashbuckler worth taking? As someone playing a 6th level one (using a different form), I'm strongly thinking about the prestiges at the moment. I'm not sure if that's a bad thing or not.

Daring Outlaw does it.  And honestly, I think if you want to do that concept, Warblade does it just as well (and hey look, buckler proficiency!).  Just focus on Diamond Mind for sword mastery.

JaronK

Elennsar

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Re: D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #176 on: October 23, 2008, 03:46:37 AM »
1) That smart Shaolin recognized that hitting people with fists was often overrated when trying to be lethal.

2) What's not fine is them prefering fists to maces because "maces suck" for monks. That just feels weird.

3) Ja. But that might not work with Robby's (Robby, if you're paying attention, pitch in, please.). In my case, were I less against manuevers (I don't mind their existance but I don't want to bother with them), I'd be looking in that direction.

Point being, something needs to make the 10th level swashbuckler feel he's done something worth investing all ten levels. Currently he doesn't have that.

Not good.
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

JaronK

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Re: D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #177 on: October 23, 2008, 04:04:25 AM »
1) That smart Shaolin recognized that hitting people with fists was often overrated when trying to be lethal.

Unless, of course, you are unarmed.  Which was a major issue.

Quote
2) What's not fine is them prefering fists to maces because "maces suck" for monks. That just feels weird.

I honestly find that rare.  Quarterstaffs and such are much more easily enchanted than fists, so a lot of monks don't use fists in the end.

Quote
3) Ja. But that might not work with Robby's (Robby, if you're paying attention, pitch in, please.). In my case, were I less against manuevers (I don't mind their existance but I don't want to bother with them), I'd be looking in that direction.

Well, just saying, it's doable currently in the rules.  And I do love the manuever system, though I understand that it's not for everyone.

Quote
Point being, something needs to make the 10th level swashbuckler feel he's done something worth investing all ten levels. Currently he doesn't have that.

Not good.

Right now, Daring Outlaw helps with that tremendously, but yes, there is an issue.

JaronK

Elennsar

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Re: D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #178 on: October 23, 2008, 04:15:44 AM »
1) Right. But you fought unarmed because you had to, not because you wanted to, in that case.

2) That is a problem for other reasons.

3) Yup.

4) Yup again. So, Robby, what do you think?
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

veekie

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Re: D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #179 on: October 23, 2008, 04:26:28 AM »
So, I'm curious about everyone's opinion.  Given my swashbuckler form last page, which do you think is the best approach for Cinematic Strike and Charge?

1) Keep it the way it's posted, or

2) Have it always work.  Use the Balance/Jump/Tumble check to add extra precision damage on top of what's already rolled.

I'm in favor of 2 I think, but it needs a further progression.
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[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
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To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

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