Author Topic: D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]  (Read 68167 times)

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RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #120 on: October 06, 2008, 08:41:12 PM »
Thanks!  :D

Again, I hope to post a few new invocations soon for evaluation.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

SiggyDevil

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Re: D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #121 on: October 07, 2008, 06:53:00 AM »
Binder is actually one of the tier 3 classes used as an example of what were trying to create. The basis of this Rebalancing 3.5 was to get all the classes brought to the same level of power as the binder, Initiator Tob classes, and Dread necro. We don't want to make something that is on the same level as true spellcasters which we're powering down by attacking spells.
I suppose our shared assumptions aren't in tune. What are you trying to accomplish with this change siggy?
 I dont' think its just change for change sake but I've no idea what your designe goal is I'd like to, maybe we can stop constantly disagreeing if I know what you're shooting for. . .

Good point. I have a response for you regarding my personal balance goals.

Bard

However, most D&D fans I encounter prefer true full spellcasters as ideal even though far too many warrior fans then go and assume balance is inherent "because the warrior can kill a wizard up close and the wizard runs out of spells eventually".  :clap
Therefore I write with the assumption that characters must hold up to spellcaster standards, and I pretty much give up on balance past level 10 because that's about then the game breaks with spellcasters as they are.
Bards, not so much. It's a safe move.

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #122 on: October 07, 2008, 10:42:22 AM »
I think it could be a cool concept for a lower-magic campaign, but I don't want to remove 7th - 9th level spells entirely from the game.  If the spells are scaled back in what they can do (particularly the abusive ones), then it shouldn't be such an issue.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #123 on: October 07, 2008, 12:03:26 PM »
Okay, so I wanted to post some new warlock invocations.  These are rough drafts, so any feedback would be appreciated.

First of all, is Eldritch Cone really a greater invocation?  Waiting until 11th level for a cone seems pretty bad.  I don't know if it's too much for a lesser invocation (6th level).  I guess it does overshadow Eldritch Chain, unless you'd rather make an attack roll instead of force a Ref save.  What are your thoughts on this?  Depending on what we do with this, it will affect the power level of other blast shape invocations.

Any inovocation flagged (modified) is a modified version of an already-printed invocation.


Blast Shape Invocations

Eldritch Retribution
Least
When someone attacks and successfully damages you with a physical weapon, you may react and attack them with an Eldritch Blast.  You apply this invocation to your Eldtritch Blast as an immediate action.  You can make an Eldritch Blast attack against the opponent who attacked you.  Your attack is resolved after the opponent's.  You cannot apply any Eldritch Essense invocations to this blast.  The target must be within 5 feet per warlock level, to a maximum of 60 feet. 

Eldritch Assault
Lesser
You may make a full attack with your Eldritch Blast this round.

Eldritch Sphere, Lesser
Lesser
You turn your Eldritch Blast into a sphere. 
Your Eldritch blast becomes a 10ft radius spread with a range of 60ft. Creatures within this area take normal damage from your Eldritch Blast. A successful reflex save halves this damage.

Eldritch Sphere
Greater
YYou turn your Eldritch Blast into a sphere. 
Your Eldritch blast becomes a 20ft radius spread with a range long (400 feet + 40 feet per level). Creatures within this area take normal damage from your Eldritch Blast. A successful reflex save halves this damage.

Eldritch Cone (modified)
Greater
As the normal invocation, except the cone is increased from 30 feet to 60 feet.


Eldritch Essence Invocations

Hellrime Blast (modified)
Lesser
Instead of applying a -2 Dex penalty, Hellrime blast deals 1d3 points of Dex damage to the target.  The damage is healed one minute after.

Shocking Blast
Lesser
Your Eldritch Blast deals electricity damage.  If attacking a target in metal armor, you gain a +3 bonus to the attack roll, or the target suffers a -3 penalty to his saving throw (if your blast targets an area of effect).  In addition, the target becomes entangled for one round.


Other Invocations

Inhuman Toughness
Least
Duration: 1 hour
You gain five temporary hit points, plus five more per three warlock levels (to a max of 35 at 18th level).  Note that these temporary hit points overlap with other temporary hit points and do not stack.  For example: a 3rd level warlock uses Inuman Toughness to gain 10 temporary hit points, and gets hit for 6 damage, leaving him with 4.  If he uses Inhuman Toughness a second time, the 10 temporary hitpoints overlap with his previous 4, giving him a total of 10 temporary hit points, and not 14.

Fiendish Form
Greater
Duration: 24 hours
Your form changes, and you take on fiendish traits. 

Your damage reduction warlock class feature becomes cold iron and good or lawful and cold iron.

You gain two claw attacks, which deal 1d6 damage (1d4 for small warlocks and 1d8 for large).  You may attack with each claw at your full bonus, but you do not gain iterative attacks with these claws from a high base attack bonus.  In addition, you can channel your eldritch blast through each claw attack.  While doing so, you cannot apply any Blast Shape invocations.

You gain wings, and can fly at your base speed with average manuverability.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2008, 01:28:02 PM by RobbyPants »
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #124 on: October 07, 2008, 12:55:33 PM »
The Blast Shapes look good, though the phrasing feels a little awkward. Why not use standard spell shape phrasing?

E.g.
Eldritch Sphere, Lesser
Lesser
You turn your Eldritch Blast into a sphere. 
Your Eldritch blast becomes a 10ft radius spread with a range of 60ft. Creatures within this area take normal damage from your Eldritch Blast. A successful reflex save halves this damage.

Hellrime Blast is alright, does Shocking Blast really need an extra save vs entangling though? Thats an extra roll, and I figure the initial attack roll/save should suffice.

Inhuman toughness seems ok, Eldritch Retribution looks like it works better as an immediate action blast shape with a trigger of 'when struck' instead of a flame shield type effect though.

Fiendish looks interesting, though the line "Any cold iron weapon must be either good or lawful aligned to bypass your damage reduction." could be, "Your damage reduction warlock class feature becomes cold iron and good or lawful and cold iron" instead. Why no essences when channeling blasts this way though?
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #125 on: October 07, 2008, 01:23:54 PM »
The Blast Shapes look good, though the phrasing feels a little awkward. Why not use standard spell shape phrasing?

E.g.
Eldritch Sphere, Lesser
Lesser
You turn your Eldritch Blast into a sphere. 
Your Eldritch blast becomes a 10ft radius spread with a range of 60ft. Creatures within this area take normal damage from your Eldritch Blast. A successful reflex save halves this damage.
Noted and changed!


Hellrime Blast is alright, does Shocking Blast really need an extra save vs entangling though? Thats an extra roll, and I figure the initial attack roll/save should suffice.
Yeah, I guess it's not that crazy.  Being entangled only halves your speed, so it's not like they're crippled for that round.  I'll remove the save.

Also, perhaps the +3 should apply against spell resistance to targets in metal armor.  Although, I'm not sure how often the two come up together...


Inhuman toughness seems ok, Eldritch Retribution looks like it works better as an immediate action blast shape with a trigger of 'when struck' instead of a flame shield type effect though.
Well, I thought of something like that.  I guess I figured it'd be an interesting way to reward a warlock with Combat Reflexes.  I guess it's not that big of a deal.  An immediate action Blast Shape would also get the trick done.


Fiendish looks interesting, though the line "Any cold iron weapon must be either good or lawful aligned to bypass your damage reduction." could be, "Your damage reduction warlock class feature becomes cold iron and good or lawful and cold iron" instead. Why no essences when channeling blasts this way though?
I changed the wording.  I think you're right about the essenses.  I wanted to exclude shapes, and I think I threw essenses in there without thinking.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #126 on: October 11, 2008, 10:20:23 PM »
In the Classes thread, the idea of knocking a caster level off of each full casting PrC came up.  Here's a direct copy-paste of a few PrCs I grabbed for quick analysis.  Honestly, I don't want to take the time to go through hundreds of PrCs to balance them all.  That might have to be something each DM does on their own.

All in all, I agree with removing the caster level at 1st level of a full casting PrC.  Some of them might need an ability added in at 1st level if it would otherwise be dead (perhaps advancing the 2nd level ability to 1st).  Anyway, below are some of my thoughts from the original 54 page thread:

[spoiler]Church Inquisitor (Complete Divine pg 26)
With all the immunities you get from this class, it seems a prime candidate for losing a caster level at 1st level.  Perhaps something could be added to the dead level at level 7 (any suggestions?).


Divine OracleRadiant Servant of Pelor Sacred ExorcistSacred FistAlienistArgent SavantElemental SavantFate SpinnerWayfarer Guide (Complete Arcane pg 65)
Seriously, what the fuck?  This highly focused, three level PrC is not worth the loss of a caster level.  Get rid of the Extra Teleportation ability at level 2 and add in another caster level, making it a 3/3 progression.


Wild Mage
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

RabidPirateMan

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Re: D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #127 on: October 11, 2008, 11:31:22 PM »
Im about to sit down to some fucking fine ass dinner made by yours truly (Pizza with red peppers, caramelized onions, mushrooms, sausage, four types of cheese and basil leaves good god I'm hard already) so all I can get in is one note before I sink my teeth into this dish of prime tastitude.

Could we go one at a time?  Listing off all these classes gets into block o text syndrome, and we might glance over many of the problems if we have such a large work load.

Were not in a hurry, are we?  Lets take it slow.

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #128 on: October 12, 2008, 12:06:28 AM »
Well, again, I don't want to try and balance every PrC in existance.  I posted those above because they were relavent in the old thread, and because JaronK made the suggestion to make all full-casting PrCs 9/10 or 4/5 casting PrCs.  Largely, I agree with this.  Just two or three of the classes above I felt were weak enough to leave alone.

Basically, if the PrC grants relatively few powers throughout its levels and/or it has some steep requirements, it might get to be full casting.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

SiggyDevil

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  • Magmar, the ultimate butthead
    • Feybook Project
Re: D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #129 on: October 12, 2008, 07:31:22 AM »

Fiendish Form
Greater
Duration: 24 hours
Your form changes, and you take on fiendish traits. 

Your damage reduction warlock class feature becomes cold iron and good or lawful and cold iron.

You gain two claw attacks, which deal 1d6 damage (1d4 for small warlocks and 1d8 for large).  You may attack with each claw at your full bonus, but you do not gain iterative attacks with these claws from a high base attack bonus.  In addition, you can channel your eldritch blast through each claw attack.  While doing so, you cannot apply any Blast Shape invocations.

You gain wings, and can fly at your base speed with average manuverability.


DAMN IIIIIT I just thought of this tonight.
I thought, "Say, I'll make an Invocation that turns a Warlock in to a Hamatula."
Oh well.
+1 internets, very nice.

Throw in support for "silver" DR and it's set. Not all fiends have cold iron weakness.

For the Invocations that turn the user in to something: there should also be an HP buffer granted when the form changes. The value is equal to an average monster it would turn in to, if duplicating a pre-existing type. When this HP is down to 0 the form vanishes instantly and can not be restarted (with fresh HP) until after sleep.

As for balancing PrCs it's better to tweak the mechanics that support the problems rather than head-on errata handfuls of classes.
For instance, giving a spellcaster-dead level in the beginning of each caster PrC (as suggested in another thread) works nicely and doesn't require actual nerfing word-by-word.

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #130 on: October 12, 2008, 09:04:28 AM »
Throw in support for "silver" DR and it's set. Not all fiends have cold iron weakness.
The cold iron was because warlocks seem to have both fiendish or fey connections.  That's also why I made if lawful or good to overcome.  It's not so much a matter of the warlock's own alignment, but rather that of their power source (or whatever you want to call it).  I suppose I could make up three invocations:
- demon form
- devil form
- fey form

They could each grant something a bit different, and the DR would change as well.


As for balancing PrCs it's better to tweak the mechanics that support the problems rather than head-on errata handfuls of classes.
For instance, giving a spellcaster-dead level in the beginning of each caster PrC (as suggested in another thread) works nicely and doesn't require actual nerfing word-by-word.
All in all, I agree with this too.  I probably didn't need to post those there.  I just copy-pasted them because they seemed relavent.

If anything, I could come up with a list of a few exceptions; classes that should stay full casting because they don't grant too many abilities.  At this stage in the game, it's probably a distraction, so I won't focus on those until later.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 09:10:13 AM by RobbyPants »
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

veekie

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  • *****
  • Posts: 9034
  • WARNING: Homing Miko
Re: D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #131 on: October 12, 2008, 12:03:21 PM »
Hmm, demon and devil form seem fairly self explanatory, but fey form would do what?

As for the PrCs, the CL drop at 1st is a fine solution by my book, though once we got enough of the base classes balanced, we should give most of the PrCs a look, one at a time.

And the Elemental Savant is yet another cool idea doomed by it's mechanics, wonder what else we can do to fix it, I tend to see people picking up Searing Spell(or one of it's commonly houseruled cousins for acid and lightning) for it just so they don't got totally boned.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

RobbyPants

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  • Posts: 7139
Re: D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #132 on: October 12, 2008, 07:20:28 PM »
Hmm, demon and devil form seem fairly self explanatory, but fey form would do what?
I'm not sure yet.  Claw attacks may or may not work.  Some fey are incredibly beautiful while others are terrifying personifications of nature.  Maybe it's some enchantment boosting thing.


As for the PrCs, the CL drop at 1st is a fine solution by my book, though once we got enough of the base classes balanced, we should give most of the PrCs a look, one at a time.
Yeah, I wasn't going to go into too much detail.  I think it's better to scratch a caster level at level 1 across the board and make a few classes too weak than to not remove the level and leave them as-is.  When we get time, we can make a few exceptions.


And the Elemental Savant is yet another cool idea doomed by it's mechanics, wonder what else we can do to fix it, I tend to see people picking up Searing Spell(or one of it's commonly houseruled cousins for acid and lightning) for it just so they don't got totally boned.
(already breaking my suggestion from above :P) I love the concept of this class too.  Hopefully, the direct damage boost rules will help make it suck less.  If we make it a 9/10 casting PrC, that might help more.  Also, adding in an ability to have half your energy damage be non-typed will help a lot too.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

SiggyDevil

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Re: D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #133 on: October 12, 2008, 07:43:31 PM »
As for the PrCs, the CL drop at 1st is a fine solution by my book, though once we got enough of the base classes balanced, we should give most of the PrCs a look, one at a time.

Not to push for a massive retrofit of classes at the moment, but before we set out to do this I have a suggestion.



We should define the Better and Worse categories of how spellcasting PrCs will be assigned.

For instance, if the PrC has good abilities it will need delay with caster levels; perhaps 2-3 off the beginning. It would be a consistent decision though; -2 SCL for reason X, -3 SCL for reason Y.
That's enough to knock out an entire highest spell level; a big blow to spellcasters.

If the PrC has so-so abilities that could probably be replaced with spells themselves, consider if any reduction is needed at all.
The exchange for PrC powers would be compared to Wizard bonus feats or Sorc heritages.
Example: Wayfarer.

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #134 on: October 12, 2008, 11:58:05 PM »
For instance, if the PrC has good abilities it will need delay with caster levels; perhaps 2-3 off the beginning. It would be a consistent decision though; -2 SCL for reason X, -3 SCL for reason Y.
That's enough to knock out an entire highest spell level; a big blow to spellcasters.
In the hypothetical case you listed above, you're not talking about a full-casting PrC are you?  As it is, sucking one caster level off the top forces the player to make a hard choice.  Anything more, and they'll never take the class.  About the only way to get them to do it for more than a caster level involves rediculously broken abilities. 

That, or the class itself is designed to not fully function based off of caster levels.  Taking levels in such a class is making a deliberate statement that you no longer consider yourself a primary caster.  Now, this isn't necessarily a bad thing.  Hopefully after some spell adjustments, it will be a choice, and the PrC won't be a waste of paper.


If the PrC has so-so abilities that could probably be replaced with spells themselves, consider if any reduction is needed at all.
The exchange for PrC powers would be compared to Wizard bonus feats or Sorc heritages.
Example: Wayfarer.
In the case of the Wayfarer, I think it could be fixed by dropping Extra Teleportation and throwing in another caster level, making it 3/3.  The abilities granted by that class are so minor that I don't think it's abusive to make it a full casting PrC.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #135 on: October 13, 2008, 04:16:21 AM »
Well, I think the full -> 9/10 shouldn't apply to PrCs with less than 10 levels, the burn is just too hefty that way, unless they are totally insane.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

JaronK

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Re: D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #136 on: October 13, 2008, 05:06:44 AM »
Well, I think the full -> 9/10 shouldn't apply to PrCs with less than 10 levels, the burn is just too hefty that way, unless they are totally insane.

The thing is, anything that gives 5/5 casting is going to be better than straight Wizard.  Besides, I'm pretty sure Shadowcraft Mages will survive happily (and yes, I'm guessing that's what you meant by totally insane).  Really, as long as we restrict ourselves to the principle that only Wizard 20 (or Sorc 20, or whatever) gets the full thing, we'll be okay, and remember that reduced power of spells means that losing a caster level doesn't hurt as much compared to whatever class abilities are gained.

JaronK

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #137 on: October 13, 2008, 09:57:19 AM »
Everytime I hear 5/5 casting PrC, the first one that jumps to mind (out of the books that I have) is the Abjurant Champion.  As much as I love that class, I can see a 4/5 casting helping to balance it out.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

veekie

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Re: D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #138 on: October 13, 2008, 11:16:13 AM »
Hmm, that one...yeah, I concur, it's a no brainer option otherwise if you already qualify.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

SiggyDevil

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Re: D&D Other Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #139 on: October 13, 2008, 01:53:21 PM »
In the hypothetical case you listed above, you're not talking about a full-casting PrC are you?  As it is, sucking one caster level off the top forces the player to make a hard choice.  Anything more, and they'll never take the class.  About the only way to get them to do it for more than a caster level involves rediculously broken abilities. 

That, or the class itself is designed to not fully function based off of caster levels.  Taking levels in such a class is making a deliberate statement that you no longer consider yourself a primary caster.  Now, this isn't necessarily a bad thing.  Hopefully after some spell adjustments, it will be a choice, and the PrC won't be a waste of paper.

I did mean full-caster, yes.
With 1-2 missing spellcaster levels I forgot to add: These kinds of PrCs should probably also substitute more focused benefits and full caster level (including higher spell slot known) in exchange for general knowledge.
For instance, if one were to redo the "Force Mage" it would lose 2 SCLs but keep full caster levels for all Force effects and Evocations/Conjurations/Transmutations that deal energy damage (since you can substitute most energy types with Force), which would be directly added to their personal spell list at the correct levels much like a Warmage.
Other abilities in exchange for missing caster levels could be at-will powers related to the specialty and PrC role, such as at-will Telekinesis for the TK-master PrC.