Author Topic: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]  (Read 250298 times)

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RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #980 on: October 23, 2008, 08:09:19 PM »
I've started with fixing the obvious broken spells.  I've made an attempt to balance save-or-dies, crowd control, and direct damage (although I may have gone too far with CC).

What else do you think we should do to weaken casters in terms of weakening spells?
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

bkdubs123

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #981 on: October 23, 2008, 08:12:56 PM »
I think the Wizards SHOULD get the most spells, especially pure ones.  And I think as long as 1 succeeds, we're okay.

JaronK

Interesting, what do you mean by "pure" spells though?

AndyJames

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #982 on: October 23, 2008, 08:29:07 PM »
Lets talk full casters.

This is one of those topics that we've really not hit on at all.  We've been working to bring some tier 4 and 5 classes up a bit, but we've done very little to bring the tier 1 and 2s down in power.  All I've done at this point is nerf SoDs, nerf crowd control (perhaps too much), and fix some broken spells (probably the tip of the iceberg).

Now, we already have some casters that are roughly the power level we're looking for.  The Dread Necromancer and Beguiller are pretty good, with the War Mage trailing not too far behind (although the direct damage changes won't hurt anything).  It had been discussed to drop the sorcerer in favor of these three classes, but I'd like to avoid that.  I like the idea of having a general spell list.  The problem is that it's still pretty potent.

So I see two options here (or a combination of the two):

1) Keep fixing spells to get the tier 1 and 2s down to 3.  That could be really hard though. 

2) Remove the nastiest spells from the general wizard/sorcerer list.  You only get those spells if you take one of the more specialized classes.  Perhaps something like this could be worked in for specialist wizards too.  Now, we can do this by either altering the spell list, or by capping the wizard/sorcerer's casting at 7th or 8th level spells.  I'd much rather try the first approach, and just shave their spell list a bit.  I'm just not sure how much we can trim and still have 9th level spells left.

So, what are your thoughts on this?  This is a touchy issue, but I think we should start working soon at brining those top tier classes down a bit. 

Also, on a semi-related topic, if you can think of any more abusive spells or psionic powers, feel free to bring them up in the Spells thread.  That will also help in this endevor.
A list of overpowered spells that need nerfing would be helpful.

We know the Polymorph range is horribly borked, and any of the calling type spells (Planar Binding, Gate, etc.) are pretty nasty if people know what they are doing. Wish can be abused, and Greater Creation too. What else?

We have more or less solved the Polymorph and Wish (and indirectly the calling spells) in the original thread, IIRC?

JaronK

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #983 on: October 23, 2008, 09:02:02 PM »
Interesting, what do you mean by "pure" spells though?

I meant pure Wizards, as opposed to builds with other classes.  Going back to my belief that all PrCs should lose casting at level 1 so that a pure Wizard is the only guy with the best possible casting (which should be balanced against whatever the PrCs give).

Other broken spells besides shapeshifting ones and calling ones (and it's Major, not Greater, Creation):

Genesis (change it to the divine version and it's fine)
Haunt Shift (I love the effect, but it's so freaking broken)
Animate Dread Warrior (whee spellstiching!)
Create Greater Undead (mostly because of Bone Creatures and other templates, otherwise it's fine)
Explosive Runes (stop the stacking and it should be fine)
Shrink Item (again, I love the effect, but not sure how to fix it.  Possibly it's the duration).
Shades/Shadow Conjuration/etc (removing component costs just asks for trouble.  Hey look, Ice Assassin just got me Pelor as a minion, whee!)

JaronK

ZeroSum

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #984 on: October 23, 2008, 09:24:58 PM »
If we're going to mark down broken spells we should definitely also mark why they're broken and potential fixes.

Genesis -- Problem: Time Traits -- Solution: Use Divine version
Haunt Shift -- Problem: Hardness and Immunities -- Solution: Vulnerability to Turning?
Explosive Runes -- Problem: Stacking -- Solution: Multiple Explosive Runes in a single 5' square does damage as the highest Explosive Runes in the square
Shrink Item -- Problem: Shrunken boulders -- Solution: Don't allow shrunken items to burst containers, don't allow shrunken items to unshrink in air?
Shades and co. -- Problem: Components -- Solution: XP components cost XP, GP components cost 5 XP per GP (Or is it 1 XP per 5 GP?  I never remember), maybe discount it by reality of the spell?  (So 110% Shades cost 110% of components... Mean.)

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #985 on: October 23, 2008, 09:57:41 PM »
We have more or less solved the Polymorph and Wish (and indirectly the calling spells) in the original thread, IIRC?
Gernally, yes.  I've come up with a preliminary Polymorph fix.  I belive it's the general approach I want to take, but I haven't hammerd out all the details yet.  I may want to revisit Wish, but a lot of it's fixed.


I meant pure Wizards, as opposed to builds with other classes.  Going back to my belief that all PrCs should lose casting at level 1 so that a pure Wizard is the only guy with the best possible casting (which should be balanced against whatever the PrCs give).
I agree with you there.  We may have some issues with people not wanting to lose a caster level, so the PrCs may be largely unused.  Still, from a balance standpoint, it's probably better than how it works now.  Even still, people may take the PrCs for flavor reasons anyway.  If spells are weakened enough, a caster level may not be the be all and end all ability to gain at any given level.


Genesis -- Problem: Time Traits -- Solution: Use Divine version
Where is the divine version of Genesis printed?  I agree that the time traits are the worst part.

Haunt Shift -- Problem: Hardness and Immunities -- Solution: Vulnerability to Turning?
I'm not familiar with this spell.  Where is that one from too?

Explosive Runes -- Problem: Stacking -- Solution: Multiple Explosive Runes in a single 5' square does damage as the highest Explosive Runes in the square
I like this fix.  You still get an advantage for triggering multiple ruins, but with diminishing returns.  Plus, it never does more than a single, maximized spell.

Shrink Item -- Problem: Shrunken boulders -- Solution: Don't allow shrunken items to burst containers, don't allow shrunken items to unshrink in air?
Not breaking containers is a good fix.  Perhaps the object has to be motionless, as opposed to it being in the air. 

Either way, I suppose someone could create some wierd trap with a shrunk boulder sitting on a small board, satisfying both conditions.  Although, using this as a trap isn't that spectacular (it's not hard to improvise a mundane trap anyway); it's most abusive when used as an attack.

Shades and co. -- Problem: Components -- Solution: XP components cost XP, GP components cost 5 XP per GP (Or is it 1 XP per 5 GP?  I never remember), maybe discount it by reality of the spell?  (So 110% Shades cost 110% of components... Mean.)
1 XP per 5 gp is the typical conversion I've seen in other sources, like VoP.  That could work pretty well.

My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #986 on: October 23, 2008, 10:00:21 PM »
Also, as for the creation spells, what are the worst abuses?

Creating treasure to sell before it disapears?

Creating loads and loads of black lotus extract?

Perhaps this can be solved by actually capping the value of anything created.  Limiting it by volume and material type might make sense in terms of realism, but it sucks for balance.  One cubic foot of X is not the same as a cubic foot of Y.  Even Wish has a caveat of the value of something that can be created.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Midnight_v

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #987 on: October 23, 2008, 10:00:21 PM »
Quote
It's true. I admit it. I don't care who knows it either!

Let's just get this out of the way right now: I know I'm in the minority; I am perhaps even in the vast minority. I can understand that. Many people just didn't or don't like that about 3.5e. There's nothing wrong with that. All too often have I heard the rhetoric that 4e is missing save or suck/die spells because "nobody liked them," or that they "ruined the game." Well, I suppose they did ruin some games, depending on how you played it... but I know they didn't ruin all games. In fact, I believe that SoS spells and effects only add to the 3.5e game.

Here's the thing that makes me appreciate SoS spells: They actually threaten the player. Oh yes, I know there are many different other kinds of credible threats out there to challenge a player with. However, to me, nothing can replace the utter sense of fear that comes when you know that a single saving throw may determine how your character will pan out.

At the beginning of a battle, when you have full HP and your surcoat is clean and your equipment is all nice and shiny, you aren't threatened by a foe. Not really. The monster may hit you a few times, but if you have a good amount of HP left, it doesn't matter much. On the other hand, when the monster shoots out a thin green ray at your character, and the DM asks you to make a Fortitude saving throw, the game changes. The battle you felt was going to be a piece of cake... well... maybe it's not really so easy anymore. Now, things hang in the balance. Now, your d20 shows it's true colours. Now, your HP doesn't determine your fate.

Back in the days of 2e (when I first started playing D&D), the big threat was when the DM asked you to "save vs. death." That's when the tension went up a notch. That's when the other players would utter "uh-oh..." or "aw crap" or "don't fail THIS save!" That's when for a brief moment all eyes turned to your trembling hand, to see if you will roll good enough to make it... if chance has favoured you this day. That's when there was genuine fear. I liked that.

I still do. 3.5e has that, and I like it.

Now, I've seen my fair share of "save or suck." I've been polymorphed into a pot-bellied pig. I've been scared to death by a phantasmal killer. I've been "dusted" by more than one disintegrate. While those things took me out of the battle... I wasn't angry or resentful. I knew that my friends would dispel it or resurrect me or whatnot. After that, it was a great story to tell the character's grandkids. It could have happened to the other players just as easily as it happened to me, so there was no resentment or "I can't play now" tantrums. We just got on with the story, and "a dramatic, unexpected turn of events" was now part of that story.

I suppose the lack of "save or suck" is one of a few reasons why I have little interest in 4e (not the only reason, this is just one). In 4e, it's a little more about your HP. You're never really threatened at the beginning of a battle since there's nothing that can threaten you at the beginning of a battle. There isn't much of anything that can take you out of a 4e battle in one shot. In that specific respect, it is sort of like a video game... the determination of whether you succeed or fail, is based mostly on making sure your "life bar" doesn't bottom-out. Most video games don't have instant death scenarios (aside from "bottomless pits," or "time trials" like crushing ceilings and whatnot).

Oh, and to clarify, I didn't just say "4e is like a video game;" I said that the lack of SoS effects makes that particular aspect of 4e more like a video game. (So, I don't want to hear any 4e promoters start jumping all over that statement. If you do, you've read way too much into it.) A person can also argue that in 3.5e the save vs. DC scale tended to break down at high levels, but that would be missing my point as well.

I must also admit, I don't just like the fear of being subject to a SoS effect, I also like using them against foes as a player. Is there a chance it might fail? Of course, but that's the trade-off for such a potent effect. It's all good to me: Sometimes things don't always work out how we would like. That's life, and I appreciate that in the game too. If I use a SoS effect against an enemy, and it fails, I just change my tactics and try something else. I don't pout about how I wasted a standard action, I learn from that mistake, and try to use it again later on different foes.

As I said, I know I'm in the minority here, but I like "save or suck" spells. I always have, and always will.

Am I alone, or does anyone else like save or suck effects? Do you have any interesting stories that came about from a SoS effect? Speak your mind!

Some guy on wotc...

my response

Quote
Sir... you are not alone. Even despite the vast amounts of my optimizer peers that will hear this and lol at me I think its an intrinsic part of the game.
Everything you said above + mechanically ...
It vastly lessens the amount of effort I have to put into getting my saves high.
Reflex saves are the lest important overall because due to the ease of recovering from damage ... I dont' even care.
However... there is no level in which I "don't care" about failing a fort save.
(i.e. my body turns to dust, my lungs cease to function, my eyes turn to tiny mouths and turn to eat my brain..etc...etc) no failig a fort save is out.
There is no level in which my party "doesn't care" about me failing a will save.
(2 point swing. -1 from party: +1 for team evil membership)
Its an incentive to keep moderately balanced scores, dex still gets picke cause it does so much else...

You know that guy who keeps saying "in 30 years of playing D&D blah blah"?
well I'm pretty much the antithesis of that guy in terms of how we view the game entire. So you've really corralled in a huge spectrum of the commnity with this question. I mostly just lurk here nowadays and post on BG's but I logged in just to say, how right and un - alone you are.
M_v

just random info, since we're talking spells
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AndyJames

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #988 on: October 23, 2008, 10:05:01 PM »
Haunt Shift is Libris Mortis, I think.

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #989 on: October 23, 2008, 10:08:54 PM »
Midnight, I agree too.  That's half of why I ultimately decided to keep SoDs lethal, and just increase the casting time.  I was talking to someone, and he pointed out that plenty of HP-reducing effects can be lethal.  No one complains about those.  It's really when there's no set up that people complain.  It's when you feel like there was nothing you could do. 

If a SoD takes a full round to cast, now the opponent can do something.  He can run or go on the offensive.  He can try to raise some defense in time.  It becomes a much more tactical decision, rather than the wizard saying "I take a standard action.  You: roll a d20! Bwua ha ha ha!"

Haunt Shift is Libris Mortis, I think.
Cool.  I have that.  I'll take a look.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Elennsar

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #990 on: October 23, 2008, 10:09:36 PM »
Wizards and sorcerers (and clerics and druids) should have "mage things" in the sense there are "warrior things". Or "rogue things".

Not "magic is the solution to all our problems" and spellcasters being able to use "magic".

That much stuff, even if no individual power is unbalanced, means the class on the whole will be very unbalanced.

We need something far more like "I'm an Illusionist, I am very good within my speciality and able to avoid sucking more resources than I contribute outside it." and far less like "I cast this, this, and this, and this, and that, and I win the encounter. And if none if you did anything it would take a couple rounds longer, but I'd still be able to win it."

Basically: "Magic" should not be "for every problem, there is a spell...and I have it on my spell list." When a spellcaster can deal with everything, even if any given one of his spells is at a reasonable level of power for tier 3, he is not tier 3.
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

AndyJames

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #991 on: October 23, 2008, 10:16:39 PM »
Cool.  I have that.  I'll take a look.
It is only borked if you couple it with negative level cheese. Otherwise, it is an OK spell. Nothing too over the top.

Kuroimaken

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #992 on: October 23, 2008, 11:03:30 PM »
Y'know, I believe the specialization approach should have it's rewards. Maybe we can elaborate lists of spells that are only available to certain kinds of casters (Shadow Conjuration for Illusionists, Fabricate for Transmuters, etc). That works better, to me, than just shaving the spell list with a lawnmower.
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Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

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AndyJames

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #993 on: October 23, 2008, 11:09:38 PM »
If you want to change the basis of the class altogether, then I would suggest that we take a look at what you want a class to *do*.

For example, you want to make a class with the job description of Metamagic Specialist.
He would obviously need a lot of feats, so we give him bonus feats (metamagic only).
Ideally, he would also want to cast his spells spontaneously, because it is almost impossible to know when you would need that Silent Dimension Door.
So, we end up with a Sorcerer with bonus metamagic feats.

Now, let's say we can to make the know-it-all who can cast spells.
He obviously would need all the Knowledge skills.
Because of his know-it-all thing, he should also get bonus feats related to that (i.e., Skill Focus Knowledge x).
Then we see what would suit him as a bookish type of guy. Something with a spellbook, perhaps?
Bang! Wizard with bonus knowledge feats.

That, I believe should be the basis of class building. Function, not names or even an archetype.

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #994 on: October 23, 2008, 11:16:37 PM »
Y'know, I believe the specialization approach should have it's rewards. Maybe we can elaborate lists of spells that are only available to certain kinds of casters (Shadow Conjuration for Illusionists, Fabricate for Transmuters, etc). That works better, to me, than just shaving the spell list with a lawnmower.
What I was suggesting in the 2nd approach wasn't to axe spells clear across the board, but rather to axe them off the generic lists.  This would leave the specialists with their special spells, but deny them to generalists.

I was toying with something more drastic for clerics, but I think the idea is doomed to fail before it's even started.


If you want to change the basis of the class altogether, then I would suggest that we take a look at what you want a class to *do*.
This is a very good point, from a fundamental perspective.  I guess when I think "wizard" I think general arcane caster.  I'd like to see access to all 8 schools of magic.  How we balance it from there, I feel would involve one or both of the approaches I suggested earlier.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

AndyJames

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #995 on: October 24, 2008, 12:15:16 AM »
It seems to me that WotC was encouraging specialisation towards the end there, over the generic arcane caster, and I sort of agree with it. Wizards are Tier 1 because of its wide array of spell choices. It is the same thing that the clerics and druids have as well, which is the main reason that makes them Tier 1 also. If you want to depower wizards, forcing ultra specialisation on them might do the job:

Wizard
Role: Versatile Arcane Spellcaster/Knowledge Hog
Spellcasting: same as Focused Specialist per day.
Choose one school. This is your specialist school. Treat as per normal for specialist schools.
Choose two other schools. These are your secondary schools. You can cast spells from them as per normal except they can't use your Focused Specialist slots, of course. Universal is considered one of the possible choices. Neither of them need to be Divination.
You get your bonus feats as per normal. You need Scribe Scroll to scribe spells into your spellbook, so the first level bonus feat is usually Scribe Scroll.
You also get bonus feats at 3, 8, 13, 18 which can be used only for Skill Focus: Knowledge (any).
Scribing spells into your spellbook does not cost gold. You just lose the scroll.
Spells other than the three selected schools are not considered to be part of your spell-list.

This one is debatable:
You may take a feat to add an additional school to your repertoire. This additional school is considered for all intents and purposes as a secondary school.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2008, 12:17:40 AM by AndyJames »

RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #996 on: October 24, 2008, 12:41:53 AM »
If we were to go this route, what about the guy who wants to generalize?  Does he get a slower progression, capping at 7th or 8th level spells?  I doubt anyone would go that route, as it's like shooting yourself in the foot the same way Mystic Theruge is.

Also, we have to rework the schools if we want specialization to be a better option.  Otherwise I can guarentee that most wizards will pick Transmutation or Conjuration as their primary school, and the other as one of their two secondary.  Those schools have so much, that the two of them together make up most of the "good" spell list.  Really, all that would distiguish one wizard from the next would be whether they took Abjuration, Illusion, or Necromancy as their other secondary school.
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Kuroimaken

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #997 on: October 24, 2008, 12:42:38 AM »
Quote
This one is debatable:
You may take a feat to add an additional school to your repertoire. This additional school is considered for all intents and purposes as a secondary school.

Given enough feats, wouldn't this beat the purpose of specializing in the first place?
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RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #998 on: October 24, 2008, 12:43:39 AM »
You might have to put a cap on it.  Even still, it's five feat out of your normal seven.  Of course, if the wizard gets bonus metamagic feats, that makes those seven a bit more expendable.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
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Elennsar

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #999 on: October 24, 2008, 12:45:13 AM »
The problem with "generalist" is that as stated by me earlier:

"Basically: "Magic" should not be "for every problem, there is a spell...and I have it on my spell list." When a spellcaster can deal with everything, even if any given one of his spells is at a reasonable level of power for tier 3, he is not tier 3."

I wouldn't want to force a mage to know ONLY a specific type of magic and nothing else but that specifically, but if you're say, an Earth Mage, Fire spells other than the basic-any-mage-can-do-this stuff are not available.

So, the schools need to be set up to handle this. As written they're not. And I'm not entirely sure that the way they're organized is the best way to ensure a fair distribution by school if "any school" is not an option, at all.
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