Author Topic: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]  (Read 250309 times)

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SiggyDevil

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #900 on: October 17, 2008, 06:21:56 PM »
It'd be nice to get more feedback, but this wildshape variant might be just what we need.  Good job Andy for coming up with it, and Jaron for mentioning it again.  If we can't come up with a reason not to use it, I'll put it on the front page later.

Ahem... Did Andy come up with that alternative before or after October 7th 2008?
I may have beat him to it.

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RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #901 on: October 17, 2008, 07:07:50 PM »
What is andy's final  change to wild shape? Sorry I think I missed it?
He said to use Alter Self instead of Polymorph for the base mechanic.  You'd still get the natural armor and movement modes, but not the ability score changes.  He'd still hand out attack modes and Ex attacks.  It's just that your ability scores don't change when you pick a new form.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
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Elennsar

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #902 on: October 17, 2008, 10:36:01 PM »
Do druids need both 9th level spells, the ability to change shape into a (more) effective fighter (small f), and an animal companion?

Not "desire". Need. After reading the shapeshift variant, I am strongly uncomfortable with a druid getting an animal companion (however it is done) and 9th level spells...druids seem to still have the "I pwn you." advantage. And few I-need-the-rest-of-the-party issues.

So, what is it that druids will need the rest of the party to take care of?

I-can-do-it-all is inherently unbalanced.

Strongly recommended reading (whether we agree with what specifically is chosen or not):
http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=4406
« Last Edit: October 17, 2008, 11:37:13 PM by Elennsar »
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RobbyPants

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #903 on: October 18, 2008, 12:33:07 AM »
If we opt to use the shapeshift variant, I see no problem with it whatsoever.  If we opt to use wild shape (even a nerfed version), we can probably manage 9th level spells, so long as we keep an eye on wild shape.

If, for some reason, we had to choose, I'd definately take the 9th level spells over the combat ability.  That being said, whatever we do with wild shape, I don't want to bring the druid to anything less than a full caster.  Really, the ranger can fill the role of a melee-oriented, weaker-caster druid.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Elennsar

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #904 on: October 18, 2008, 12:40:08 AM »
I see a big problem...not so much with the shapeshift variant as this.

"Monsters that a 10th level druid can defeat" and "monsters that are CR 10" are virtually the same list.

That is bad. Very, very bad. Substitute just about any level between 2 and infinity for 10.
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Midnight_v

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #905 on: October 18, 2008, 01:21:51 AM »
Fortunately we dont' have to choose.
I'm gonna take a couple days off.
I hope I don't come back to find this guys badgering to have proven succesful.
...

We need comparative testing, btw...
...Elennsar you fail the project.

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Elennsar

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #906 on: October 18, 2008, 01:23:33 AM »
I fail the project by pointing out that "I can do well against everything" is overpowered?

Riiiiiiight.
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Kuroimaken

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #907 on: October 18, 2008, 01:32:18 AM »
Cut the beauty fight, guys. It's not productive OR pleasant to look at.

I know BimR (possibly Meg, too) is going to want to skin me alive for this, but the discussion would be even remotely worthy reading for "ouch" value if the two of you were chicks. At least they know how to hit it where it hurts.
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Final Fantasy 7
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Elennsar

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #908 on: October 18, 2008, 01:34:44 AM »
Personally, I've no desire to fight Midnight or anyone else here. I'm just sick of being insulted by him because I don't agree that the game should be left alone as much as possible (particularly since the game doesn't work very well like that, whether or not it meets my tastes).

So. What do we do to make it so that all classes can contribute at 10th level (or 5th, or 9th, or 16th, or whatever) rather than having/keeping the "wins all the time".

I didn't drop the link for my own amusement. We do need to look at something like that. If druids can beat fighters of equal level, that's fine. If fighters are everyone's bitch, that's not fine.
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



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veekie

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #909 on: October 18, 2008, 02:00:10 AM »
If we opt to use the shapeshift variant, I see no problem with it whatsoever.  If we opt to use wild shape (even a nerfed version), we can probably manage 9th level spells, so long as we keep an eye on wild shape.

If, for some reason, we had to choose, I'd definately take the 9th level spells over the combat ability.  That being said, whatever we do with wild shape, I don't want to bring the druid to anything less than a full caster.  Really, the ranger can fill the role of a melee-oriented, weaker-caster druid.

Agreed there, I think the druid being able to hold his own in melee if necessary should be enough, it's not a primary role for him, that part is covered by being a full caster. What are the druid's spells good at anyway? Don't play them much myself, but off hand all I keep hearing about is Shapechange(which we'd be nerfing I expect), and not a lot else.
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Midnight_v

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #910 on: October 18, 2008, 02:14:34 AM »
Personally, I've no desire to fight Midnight or anyone else here. I'm just sick of being insulted by him because I don't agree that the game should be left alone as much as possible (particularly since the game doesn't work very well like that, whether or not it meets my tastes).

So. What do we do to make it so that all classes can contribute at 10th level (or 5th, or 9th, or 16th, or whatever) rather than having/keeping the "wins all the time".

I didn't drop the link for my own amusement. We do need to look at something like that. If druids can beat fighters of equal level, that's fine. If fighters are everyone's bitch, that's not fine.

Elennsar vs Midnight.

Quote
Personally, I've no desire to fight Midnight or anyone else here. I'm just sick of being insulted by him because I don't agree that the game should be left alone as much as possible (particularly since the game doesn't work very well like that, whether or not it meets my tastes).

I don't want to fight you either...
You and I have been fighting the same fight from day one. You want to make the project different than was originally outlined


Quote
(particularly since the game doesn't work very well like that, whether or not it meets my tastes).
One of the base assumptions was generally 3.5 works. It just needs a patch.

Unlike you though the second I find out my assumptions are wrong I'll get with the program or leave
« Last Edit: October 18, 2008, 02:17:43 AM by Midnight_v »
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Midnight_v

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #911 on: October 18, 2008, 02:16:29 AM »
I fail the project by pointing out that "I can do well against everything" is overpowered?

Riiiiiiight.
No. Other reasons dude.
I dont even feel like explaining it now.

*sigh* Even what you just said is too relative.
I don't wanna argue with you either

Quote
"I can do well against everything" is overpowered?
I can't even insult you any more... it's all so futile...
but fuck you (how's that) by the way... it's not overpowered.

Read the Tome of Battle.
or play as a binder.
In fact...  
I can do well vs everything is what we're shooting for...

The Crusader ...swordsage... binder... Tier 3 shit... is good vs everything.

I just want to know who does everyone agree what

random dble posting sorry
« Last Edit: October 18, 2008, 02:18:38 AM by Midnight_v »
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Elennsar

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #912 on: October 18, 2008, 02:22:29 AM »
Having a 10th level crusader (or whatever) being able to take on 10th level members of any other class and win 100% of the time (or even 90% of the time) is broken.

A 10th level character vs. a 10th level encounter should not be "I win. Every single time." because that's not a 10th level encounter...its an encounter significantly weaker than the character.

As for 3.5 "just needing a patch": There's a huge difference between "let's rewrite this game to be more like what I want to play" and "let's rewrite this game so that it is actually balanced."

Frank: "Fighters suck, and that's not really up for debate. What is up for debate, however, is what people actually want to do about it - how it is that people want them to be better than they are. And this goes down to the heart of the CR system. Ideally, a character should go about 50% in one-on-one against the creatures of their own CR.

But it's not as simple as just making them the same as the creatures of their level, that's not even practical. What we are really looking at is a spread, where some characters should beat individual monsters of their level most of the time and get schooled by others - so that a party with diverse abilities has a rotating star in different battles and generally wins even though specific characters would get schooled by some of the monsters they face in a cage match."

Similarly, those who are too powerful should be toned down to reach an equal level of performance as those who are too weak are beefed up to reach.
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Midnight_v

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #913 on: October 18, 2008, 02:43:22 AM »
Quote
Having a 10th level crusader (or whatever) being able to take on 10th level members of any other class and win 100% of the time (or even 90% of the time) is broken.

A 10th level character vs. a 10th level encounter should not be "I win. Every single time." because that's not a 10th level encounter...its an encounter significantly weaker than the character.

As for 3.5 "just needing a patch": There's a huge difference between "let's rewrite this game to be more like what I want to play" and "let's rewrite this game so that it is actually balanced."


"let's rewrite this game to be more like what I want to play" I believe you've been doing that since day one.

There's a whole page of you arguing about wildshape which we we'ren't talking about, it's a huge example of why you make the project fail.

You are the one trying to make the game what YOU want it to be. We're not making a new system like you want, so you push for the farthest changes possible and we're talking tier 3.

Balance everything towards those classes power... why can't you grasp that?

Oh.. right you've little to no experience with 80% of those classes ...

So. Why are you here?



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Elennsar

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #914 on: October 18, 2008, 02:47:32 AM »
Because I'd like to see the game actually balanced, instead of unbalanced in a new way.

As for "let's rewrite this game to be more like what I'd like to play"...no, I haven't.

So...are those classes balanced relative to each other, or relative towards encounters at that level, or are they just clumped there because they neither suck horribly or are massively overpowered for their level?

Misinterpetation is for the lose, Midnight. So stop it.


One very serious question. Are spellcasters (defined as the classes getting a full progression of spellsfrom 0-9th level) supposed to be "one thing really well and not useless outside that", or "many things reasonably well but not as good as a specialist"?

As written, as we all know, they're "many things better than the supposed specialists".
« Last Edit: October 18, 2008, 02:55:32 AM by Elennsar »
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

Kuroimaken

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #915 on: October 18, 2008, 03:01:54 AM »
Guys, PLEASE knock the fuck off.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

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Elennsar

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #916 on: October 18, 2008, 03:03:40 AM »
Oh right, I forgot. Attacking someone is no worse than defending yourself. So the secret is to find someone who isn't popular and attack them. Right.

Anyyywaaaaay. I stand by my question: One very serious question. Are spellcasters (defined as the classes getting a full progression of spellsfrom 0-9th level) supposed to be "one thing really well and not useless outside that", or "many things reasonably well but not as good as a specialist"?

As written, as we all know, they're "many things better than the supposed specialists".
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

Midnight_v

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #917 on: October 18, 2008, 03:36:54 AM »

Quote
So...are those classes balanced relative to each other, or relative towards encounters at that level, or are they just clumped there because they neither suck horribly or are massively overpowered for their level?

Have you read the original thread? Thats where the answer is to be found.

Even better lets just ask Jaronk. Or lets ask Robby.

Kuroimaken: I'm sick of his bullshit, dude. One of us is wrong here.

If it me I'll leave.
If it's you will you leave?

Everyone else judge.

If the people who've posted in this thread within the last 20 days say I'm wrong. I'll leave.
Even if most say it I'll leave.
Can you say the same?

Your directoin is wrong.
You don't respect the project goals.
So instead of saying "Hey I want my own rebalancing thread" you sabotage this one.
We're basically teaching you optimization and balance and logic AND listening as we go. See the last page.

You're question doesn't even matter cause your not challenging the class, you're again challenging the design goals.
Though it'd be far less disruptive to start your own thread.
Except when you did mad people came and told you what a shitty idea your multiclassing was...
Which I'm sure would be a theme if you tried your own "Rewriting 3.5" thread.
I hope bad things happen to you.
 :pout
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Elennsar

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #918 on: October 18, 2008, 03:39:26 AM »
I'm glad to know that you're opening stating "I'd rather be hostile and negative than actually attempt anything productive."

Classic. So, for those who are intereted in the project rather than going "bash Elennsar he doesn't think 3.5 is the greatest game ever", do you want druids doing many things reasonably well, or one thing very well?
Faith can move mountains. It still can't deflect bullets.



"Communication with humans." is a cross-class skill for me. Please bear this in mind.

Kuroimaken

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Re: D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]
« Reply #919 on: October 18, 2008, 03:44:35 AM »
Quote
Anyyywaaaaay. I stand by my question: One very serious question. Are spellcasters (defined as the classes getting a full progression of spellsfrom 0-9th level) supposed to be "one thing really well and not useless outside that", or "many things reasonably well but not as good as a specialist"?

As written, as we all know, they're "many things better than the supposed specialists".

I believe the Bard was the guy who was supposed to be the jack-of-all-trades but master of none kind of character (he gets skills, he gets buffs, he gets stealth, he gets spells... optimized properly he can come very close to mastery of any of those specific skills). As for what "full" spellcasters are supposed to be, I vote for number one (doing something well but not useless outside of it), because it's easier to gauge power levels when we're dealing with a single aspect than when dealing with several. Granted, I don't think mage-types should be purely blasters or cleric-types only healers (diversity IS the spice of life after all), but specialization SHOULD count for something.

EDIT: Take it to PMs, guys. Don't make me call Meg and make her feel motherly over this.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2008, 03:46:45 AM by Kuroimaken »
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!