D&D Core Classes [Rebalancing 3.5]

[Kuroimaken]

What tier IS the scout, exactly? I forget.

I also understand what Midnight's talking about, but I think we agree that Wildshaping IN ADDITION TO spells is a bit much. Granted we'll be violating spells with a nerf bat the size of a fire extinguisher, but that's because at present casters own the fucking world.

Midnight, why exactly do you dislike the shapeshifting variant? I saw you getting cranky at it, but I didn't see the specific reason behind it.

[Midnight_v]

Thanks for the consideration. . . but,
I wasn't talking about that.
I was talking about comparison.

Frankly to hell with skirmish. . . for now. (but to answer your question we can just give favored enemy to scout and call it even which is exaclty what swift hunter does. So we just give them favored enemy)

What I'm talking about with that is we need to:
Compare what we we're using for balance, vs what were trying to balance.
Decide what classes we've created we intend to be able to fufil basic class roles.

See what I did there, without saying it is, follow our original design goals.

If the design goal bring things into range of tier 3 power then we should condisder a determinate to prove that we've achieved "X".
After El started talking about "the weakening" I started wondering at what point is someone just not going to play "X" class when "Y" class is doing the same thing but with more hit points and better saves?
Thats why I think there need to be only the slightest altering to spells. We only NEED to bring in the "cheating" Polymorh/binding/wish/celerity. Which is really hard but obviously not in the same league as "grease" or "glitterdust" which people immediately try to jump on.

I caution that those people often aren't versed in the tiers very well.

So look ... yes I think the ranger/scout = Swifthunters and you then play one or the other because you FEEL LIKE IT, "I want skills" vs "I want bab" and I like this class ability set better, should be the only mechanical considerations.

However, what's important and what I want everyone to get from this is "Benchmarking."

You can justify having an animal compaion in that scenario because the next thing filling that roll has an extra set of actions to dole out.

Basically for this conversation I could have said:
Crusader/Warblade(I said crusader cause it can compete flavorwise with the ranger)
Crusader = Move + Stadard (damage attack) + Always active buff (stance) + swift action (extra set of actions for another character) The rogue for instance allowing him a full attack at flank if he's already moved into position.

The ranger would have the same number of "Actions" Ostensibly
But my eyes hurt ... I hope this helps. Laters.
M_v

[Midnight_v]

What tier IS the scout, exactly? I forget.

I also understand what Midnight's talking about, but I think we agree that Wildshaping IN ADDITION TO spells is a bit much. Granted we'll be violating spells with a nerf bat the size of a fire extinguisher, but that's because at present casters own the fucking world.

Midnight, why exactly do you dislike the shapeshifting variant? I saw you getting cranky at it, but I didn't see the specific reason behind it.

Edit Kuroimaken: I don't like the shapeshifting variant because .... it's a bad trade and it's an obvious bad trade and meant to be so.
  It pisses me off because instead of saying "Okay, we fucked up, here are some playtested classes, they just said: Okay we've heard that the druid is broke because of "Wildshape and AC and casting wild wildshaping, so we're just gonna throw all that out."
Fuck ... them.

I hate to sound all agnsty and melodramatic, but really thats what they did.

Hmmm...
okay
I don't like shapeshift druid because
1. It takes two GREAT THINGS and replaces it with one Moderate to shitty thing YMMV
2.You can't cast in thier shapeshifted forms.
Which really casting isn't unreasonable When you really think about the difference the outright loss of wilshape makes.  I mean you're no longer a tyranosaurus with spells. You're an eagle with spells.
3. It does that stupid thing where using this ability eats your items. Its just unneeded.

There are a few more things too. Ultimately though I know that, me disliking SS druid falls out of fashion, but really I think many people liked it because they we're just hating the druid... ANYTHING TO NERF THIS?
So they lemming'd it into acceptablility plus people like having new shit even if it really is shit, to play with.

and on top of all that... people want to do this:
Granted we'll be violating spells with a nerf bat the size of a fire extinguisher, but that's because at present casters own the fucking world. W...T...F...
  If you do that, if you seriously disregard my advice and take away all the best spell effects... and give spell casters 4th ed style class abilities (which is what it'll inevitable end up as) you've simply succeded in making something no on will play, good job. Cause they have to be as good or slightly better than the guys with the swords because they have relatively speaking "no hp"

What? Full caster you say? O... it can be done. We can make full caster's "shit".
The one that blows goats or what ever... what was that Class...
Ah Warmage = shit class.
Shugenja... I remeber them to be a shit class... I may be mistaken about that one.
Healer. yeah.
.....

Wu jen. Is anyone familiar with that? Would any of you play it?
Mabye it needs to be looked at, it has a insular spell list and is basically a wizard with programmed feats. Still a full caster with a few class abiities other than spell casting....

Whatever happens though, casters Wizards, have to be = not less than everyone else and if you err, err towards sameness not weakness.
I digress...

[AndyJames]

Shugenja is as bad as a class with 9th level casting can get.

And IIRC Wu Jen is only good for one thing: Giant Size.

[Elennsar]

Given that all of the others are we-break-the-game-utterly broken, is it too weak relative to them, or relative to the power of good-enought-to-win-at-this-CR-but-not-make-it-certain?

[RobbyPants]

I've never actually played a Wu Jen.  My impression is not so much that it's bad, but that it's just okay.  Compared to other full casters, they suck.

As Andy noted, Giant Size is useful.

[Kuroimaken]

2.You can't cast in thier shapeshifted forms.

Funny, I thought returning to normal form was a free action. So when you wanna cast, you just end up eating a swift in addition to the standard it'll take for you to cast (which doesn't matter because our Druid buddy doesn't need swift actions any more than, say, the Barbarian).

But I digress. I understand you're really set against using Shapeshift, and I respect your opinion. The reason (I believe) people didn't dislike the idea of replacing Wild Shape with Shapeshifting is because, compared to Wild Shape, Shapeshifting is tame and doesn't make the party Fighter feel like someone just opened a Portable Hole on his anus.

[veekie]

Also, when I suggested Shapeshifting, I meant the mechanics, not burning the animal companion with it. Thats a bit overkill in my book. Just clarifying.

[Midnight_v]

I Have Awakend! 

2.You can't cast in thier shapeshifted forms.

Funny, I thought returning to normal form was a free action. So when you wanna cast, you just end up eating a swift in addition to the standard it'll take for you to cast (which doesn't matter because our Druid buddy doesn't need swift actions any more than, say, the Barbarian).

But I digress. I understand you're really set against using Shapeshift, and I respect your opinion. The reason (I believe) people didn't dislike the idea of replacing Wild Shape with Shapeshifting is because, compared to Wild Shape, Shapeshifting is tame and doesn't make the party Fighter feel like someone just opened a Portable Hole on his anus.

I gotta be honest with you, I don't even like the druid.  I just don't want to see a gross misjustice commited I don't want the druid to be the all powerful OZ, but going from the all powerful OZ, by a good deboning to being losing 2-for-1 class abilities Uhm pass.
  I admit I didn't rembemer that returning to the normal form was a free action, but in that case, its not needed. Just let them cast in form. Bears with lazers are who the druids are now. Even if its "A creature that looks like a bear ...until it shoots lazers , should be acceptable, but as Veekie says "Not the burning of animal compainon with it. Thats just over kill in my book"

Oh and kuroimaken, I'm gonna say this again everyone needs to get it.

(which doesn't matter because our Druid buddy doesn't need swift actions any more than, say, the Barbarian).

 LISTEN: If anyone has swift actions, then everyone needs swift actions. Classes DO get swift(and immediate) actions so everyone needs them otherwise they've already lost the econmy of actions game. Thus we've lost the Rebalance game.

[RobbyPants]

The fighter we worked on utilizes those.  I know the monk re-make has a few in it, but not to the same extent.

Now, casters can use Quicken Spell, but that's not so much a class feature, but rather a feature enhanced by a feat.

[Elennsar]

Letting them cast in form, unless being an animal is in some other way a disadvantage, encourages going around as a bear (or whatever) as much as possible. And if you can find some way to hide that you're a bear, so that you gain the benefits but can do it in civilized areas...

Druids should be making a choice to wild shape. Not considering it preferable to their own shape.

[Midnight_v]

Letting them cast in form, unless being an animal is in some other way a disadvantage, encourages going around as a bear (or whatever) as much as possible. And if you can find some way to hide that you're a bear, so that you gain the benefits but can do it in civilized areas...

Druids should be making a choice to wild shape. Not considering it preferable to their own shape.

Who the fuck says so? You?
That's a weak and totally arbitrary decision.

Plus after looking at some of you other ideas, The multiclassing thing and the Nerdrage Marty shit you pulled over in the threads that make us cry. I'm leaning towards thinking you are the last person anyone should be listening to when it comes to rebalancing. The game you want is not the game we're working on.
I really can't wait for you to leave. Hopefully some real world issue manages to pull you away.

Further we're not even talking about wildshape now. We're discussing the shapeshift variant. So lets talk relavance.

The second you say things like X class should or shouldn't , its bullshit.

If Druids should be doing whatever the fuck we decided druids should be doing, then that needs to be a well though out process determined by actual factors in the came.
Role and competition for role.
 (Defined mechaically. An assassin can be many things but when you call an assassin all the matters is that the motherfucker you want killed without trace dies without trace, be it a druid, a Wizard, binder, or swordsage that does the killing doesn't actually matter)
How usable are the mechanics.
Are the mechanics abusable? If so how? How do we make them not abusable.

Making them choose between shapeshifting and casting is fucking dumb.

Even at that the form will be preferable in many ways all the time anyway just for pretending I"m a fucking eagle then turning into a druid and blowing your ass up then turning into a snake and slithering away.
Its just so petty. Just let them cast in predator form or whatever, as it works now its not even a choice.

Discussing wildshape is a whole different matter.

So if we have to use the shapeshift mechanic fine, but it replaces wildshape *ONLY* and we make the grand realization that casting is being nerfed, and we're running a train on wildshape, so the casting wihle a bird isn't a big deal, and we'll need tha animal companion... because we *Can't* turn into a fleshraker or whatever.

Now, no offense to the guy but we've been at this a month or more and I understand what he wants and I do not approve.
So everytime we follow Elensar's suggestions we're moving toward a game the Midnight_v wouldn't play, and I know I'm not the only one to feel that way.

[quote = Elennsar]MinMaxer's and other people I hate[/quote]
First I'm an optimizer... second you need to be a min-maxer to some extent to understand balance.
It keeps you from saying stupid shit like "broken" and "X class doesn't deserve this ability" when it just make you sound incompetent.

[Elennsar]

No, it isn't. It's a "we do not want druids abusing wild shape so they get all the advantages and none of the flaws of being in 'animal form'." decision.

Does that mean that a druid should be forced to choose whether they want to wild shape or go about as human (or whatever) and that's that? No, no, no, no, no.

Should they benefit from the beneifts of wild shape (used unless the ability is also being renamed) and spellcasting at the the same time without a cost? No.

So, is there a reason for a druid not to say "I go into whatever wild shape form is most convenient" and stay there 24/7, particularly when he can hide the fact he's a bear or whatever if he wishes as well as gain whatever benefits? Now, if for instance he can be a bear and get whatever bonuses for being a bear, but not having opposable thumbs is really inconvenient, that's not necessarily a bad trade. Having it be "you get bear bonuses" makes it excessive.

As for your quote...you care to point to where exactly I said that, as well as the whole statement, instead of some little sliver that can be mangled to suit your desire to be insulting rather than understand why I'm making the comment I am?

Every time you take a quote out of context, Gygax makes another "BECAUSE I'M THE DM AND I SAY SO!" rule.

[AndyJames]

No, it isn't. It's a "we do not want druids abusing wild shape so they get all the advantages and none of the flaws of being in 'animal form'." decision.

I would think that the lack of an opposable thumb is a pretty big drawback.

Plus, let's see what happens when you turn into a deer in front of a tribe of starving Barbarians...

[Elennsar]

As stated, if that's a big drawback, hooray, it isn't purely "I gain powerz".

Good point on the starving barbarians, but I think that counts as idiocy getting its just deserts rather than a limitation of wild shape.

[AndyJames]

It is a limitation of Wildshape in that Wildshape should cause logical repercussions if used inappropriately. It falls under the clause of "just because you can doesn't mean you should".

If you are in the wild 24/7 and are expecting trouble 24/7, then yes, Wildshape should be used all the time. But in an urban adventure, walking around as a bear becomes a liability more often than not.

Druid is a versatile class, yes, but it is also a limited class. It has many features which have conditions placed on them. Resist Nature's Lures is worthless if you are on good terms with the fey and are not the target of their abilities. Woodland Stride is worthless in a city. Entangle can't be used without vegetation nearby. That sort of thing.

A Druid in the wild is a powerhouse. A Druid in a city much less so.

That said, I have had experience with an Arcane Heirophant before, and I used Wildshape maybe two or three times. City adventure plus loss of all gear when Wildshaped means that it is a less desirable option than just straight out cast the encounter ending spell in Round 1.

[Elennsar]

As for logical repercussions: Point is, that's not a limitation on "how useful it is to be able to be a deer all the time" relative to the powers of other classes, particularly when you're probably not going to approach hungry barbarians as a deer if you can help it. That's a limitation on being a deer in a particularly bad situation, which if you can cast spells, is much less of a limitation.

In an urban adventure, disguise yourself as a humanoid. http://www.giantitp.com/articles/dC21fDHZ4tK8n5OjUm9.html

So, unless there are actual disadvantages to being in bear form, druids will love being in bear form and will take merciless advantage of it.

[AndyJames]

A spell lasting 10min/lvl is a problem when you are attending the Governor's Ball, don't you think?

"Excuse me, guv'nor. I need to nip out back to recast my shapechanging spell so that you won't think that I am an Assassin out to gut you when you weren't looking... Err, I mean so you won't freak out when I do a Cinderella in a minute or two."

[Elennsar]

Since there are various ways to extend that, not so much. I wouldn't say it's perfect, but it's still potent.

Of course, what would be really funny (tricky but funny)..

Tell his Grace that you're disguised as a bear, and its just a costume.

[AndyJames]

Unless you are a MoMF, you can't speak in animal form...